PhD's know a lot about one small area of study while a Bachelors degree knows a little bit about a large area of study.
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Does anyone else find this disturbing?
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Gary C
Veteran Member
Lets face it, we know how to program because if we didn't, a computer basically sat there and was useless.
However, we were the minority to be interested in these things, the change now is that everyone is using them and the 'computer' has been hidden behind layers and layers of UI. When I started work in the Plant Computer department, I didn't even have a computer on my desk, now everyone has.
But the folders thing must be down to phones and iPads. Even windows 10 really needs some idea about files.
One of our kids just got his degree last year after finally getting there after throwing away two years of A levels because 'the teachers were just awful ?' (yep, rising inflection on every sentence, grrr) and everything is someone else's fault, they didn't teach properly, dress code was designed to attack him, school rules and times were just 'stupid', yet others passed every exam.
Finally got his head together after doing an Apprenticeship I found him. Getting out of the school system for a while, with its child centred pandering was absolutely essential for him.
However, we were the minority to be interested in these things, the change now is that everyone is using them and the 'computer' has been hidden behind layers and layers of UI. When I started work in the Plant Computer department, I didn't even have a computer on my desk, now everyone has.
But the folders thing must be down to phones and iPads. Even windows 10 really needs some idea about files.
One of our kids just got his degree last year after finally getting there after throwing away two years of A levels because 'the teachers were just awful ?' (yep, rising inflection on every sentence, grrr) and everything is someone else's fault, they didn't teach properly, dress code was designed to attack him, school rules and times were just 'stupid', yet others passed every exam.
Finally got his head together after doing an Apprenticeship I found him. Getting out of the school system for a while, with its child centred pandering was absolutely essential for him.
g4ugm
Veteran Member
Well I think that problem has been around for a long time. When I did desktop support, so over 10 years ago so many users had no idea where their files lived. They were "In Word" on "In Excel". Then when I tried to teach Windows Server Management I found many had never right-clicked on a mouse.
I liken it to motoring. In the 1950's cars need greasing and oiling at short distances. They needed oil changes every few thousand miles. They had grease nipples on the suspension If you broke down it helped if you could fix it. These days I leave it to the garage, but doing it myself would be tricky. Most everything is set from a computer. They run for 100,000 miles without any adjustment. Yes some people need to know, but only specialist. I think computing is moving back that way as well. So for some jobs you will need specialist IT training.
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Yes, they can tell time. But they can't manage or understand it. Being able to read an analog clock is important to understand time and not think of it as just numbers. Technology Connections has a nice video about that.
Also, what's hard about reading a sun dial? It works like an analog clock, just with no pointer for minutes (which is redundant anyway due to a lack of precision).
VERAULT
Veteran Member
No, I appreciate your honesty. My daughter is very bright but very very lazy so I have no idea what to expect. Kids dont have the attention span to buckle down on anything, but maybe college has changed to accomodate that. Everything else seems to have.
I watched that video and how he pointed it out made sense to me. Looking at a digital clock does not convey time passing. And just like him, looking at an analog clock as a young boy in school completely conveyed long periods of time passing.
We bought our son a new computer at Christmas time. IT came with Windows 10. Not a single one of our home computers is windows 10 and I refuse to deal with that nonsense. Even in the course of a month he had problems he needed me to look at. He for some odd reason thought it best to hide everything (not like windows 10 doesnt already do that for you..) but he did it more so. Hiding icons, disabling messages, hiding the taskbar and notifications.. Essentially closing his eyes to the state of the computer.. Next thing I know the cpu is always bogged down and there is a ton of stuff loaded and garbage on the machine.. I dont get it. When I was his age these things facinated me. I wanted to understand how they ran. He could care less even though its causing his machine not to run, and when I try and explain it.. I am clearly wrong and dont know what I am talking about. Of course that same thing applies to all conversations even those outside of technology. God help us.
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vwestlife
Veteran Member
People have different ways of organizing things. One of my high school classmates put all of his school papers into one WordPerfect file. When he wanted to print a specific paper, he just entered the range of page numbers to print.
And here's an interesting video about how kids may be having difficulty reading analog clock dials, because they only think of it as an unnecessarily difficult way of representing the current numerical time, rather than as a way of physically indicating the passage of time:
And here's an interesting video about how kids may be having difficulty reading analog clock dials, because they only think of it as an unnecessarily difficult way of representing the current numerical time, rather than as a way of physically indicating the passage of time:
westveld
Experienced Member
Is this the video?
Interesting, we might be hitting on different ways our brains work - or are trained to work.
I learned time on an analog clock. But time has always been numerical for me.
Analog clocks are an extra step - translate to numbers first, then compute (time to an appointment, time spent on X already, time until the post office closes...)
The visual
And yet - other things I like best analog.
I learned time on an analog clock. But time has always been numerical for me.
Analog clocks are an extra step - translate to numbers first, then compute (time to an appointment, time spent on X already, time until the post office closes...)
The visual
And yet - other things I like best analog.
- Speedometer - analog
- Volume control - hybrid (rotary encoder with detents, digital display)
- Throttle / break - analog - although hybrid like a volume control would be interesting. Would numerical / detent feedback change the way I drive?
- Keyboard vs touch screen for real work
- Mouse scroll wheel vs up-arrow/down-arrow - ? depends on contex
VERAULT
Veteran Member
Yep thats the video Timo mentioned. Its good stuff and a bit meandering but it makes perfect sense.
So I will admit, It was hard for me to learn analog clock time. My parents never put a battery in our wallclock at it was a giant designer piece on driftwood so they didnt like taking it down. That and I was a lazy kid. but I learned it grade school and it hasnt been a problem since. I prefer analog clocks and watches.
Here is somthing else. My kids dont tie thier shoes.. ever! They double knot them (like a 5 year old) extremely loosely or they just double knot the ends and leave them swinging in the breeze. IT drives me up the F%#king wall that they dont understand ankle support. A whole generation incable of tying shows thinking they know better than every shoe wearing generation before them. I undo the knots because they look ridiculous and when its time to leave the house its as if they are in 2nd grade and take a long time to re-tie them.... When I say I am terrified for the future its no exageration. My kids cant tie thier shoes or read analog clocks... Or read books, or .... etc etc etc. I think a power outage for 5 months would be a real nice eye opener for them..
Ill be fine. I can hunt for food.
Hygiene is going to slip in that situation... but thats fine.. The smell will scare away the bears...
So I will admit, It was hard for me to learn analog clock time. My parents never put a battery in our wallclock at it was a giant designer piece on driftwood so they didnt like taking it down. That and I was a lazy kid. but I learned it grade school and it hasnt been a problem since. I prefer analog clocks and watches.
Here is somthing else. My kids dont tie thier shoes.. ever! They double knot them (like a 5 year old) extremely loosely or they just double knot the ends and leave them swinging in the breeze. IT drives me up the F%#king wall that they dont understand ankle support. A whole generation incable of tying shows thinking they know better than every shoe wearing generation before them. I undo the knots because they look ridiculous and when its time to leave the house its as if they are in 2nd grade and take a long time to re-tie them.... When I say I am terrified for the future its no exageration. My kids cant tie thier shoes or read analog clocks... Or read books, or .... etc etc etc. I think a power outage for 5 months would be a real nice eye opener for them..
Ill be fine. I can hunt for food.
Hygiene is going to slip in that situation... but thats fine.. The smell will scare away the bears...
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westveld
Experienced Member
RE: Today's students
Based on my own experience in the 90s -
College was an alignment of bad ideas, in hindsight.
Going from lots of externally-driven structure and little freedom - to self-driven structure and gobs of freedom (and booze)
Going from easy-enough to slide by - to not so much, and dense concepts with no obvious practical application.
I should have had more accountability - maybe living from home (ug).
I should have been in a tech program - 2 year degrees in applied computing / electronics - I would have loved that - but for some reason it was looked down upon.
Based on my own experience in the 90s -
College was an alignment of bad ideas, in hindsight.
Going from lots of externally-driven structure and little freedom - to self-driven structure and gobs of freedom (and booze)
Going from easy-enough to slide by - to not so much, and dense concepts with no obvious practical application.
I should have had more accountability - maybe living from home (ug).
I should have been in a tech program - 2 year degrees in applied computing / electronics - I would have loved that - but for some reason it was looked down upon.
Al Kossow
Documentation Wizard
"My kids don't tie their shoes.. ever!"
They will the first time they do a face plant on the sidewalk after stepping on the loose lace of the other shoe.
They will the first time they do a face plant on the sidewalk after stepping on the loose lace of the other shoe.
vwestlife
Veteran Member
I still haven't gotten over how Apple just suddenly decided to reverse the way that scrolling works:
Why Did Apple Reverse the Way We Scroll Up and Down?
In July, Apple released its new operating system, Mac OS X Lion, and pulled a Frank Lloyd Wright. The architect would return to the homes he had...
And that was in 2011. So now we have an entire generation of people who think of the wrong way of scrolling as "natural".
Yes, they are "using" them, but have no idea of how they work. We learned to "program" them to make them do what we wanted. Then they were computers to
us. Now most are just appliances to the user. They have no idea how they work. They just know they do and that's good enough for them.
I know a lot of people that prefer the new way. It's nice that they have the option.
Folklore says that the only intuitive interface is the nipple, but even many babies need to be trained on that.
I'm sure there are PC people that, at times, have struggled with the \ and / key when working with Unix.
Back in the day, pity the poor sod that had to work on Unix and Apollo Domain. To very close systems that were Just Wrong. As a casual user, all of your muscle memory is screwed up between the two.
I once worked on Unix and Alpha Micro. I was able to shift between the to easily because I had two, distinct terminals. Then, one day, we had connectivity from the Unix box to the Alpha micro, and without the cognitive switch of the terminals, switching back and forth between the command sets was a struggle.
Jove
Experienced Member
Yes, yes it would. That is why some cars in the 70s had "efficiency" gauges, which are really just a vacuum gauge. You received feedback on throttle position and rate of change, you drove differently.
Just like my car.
I know how engines work, what all the pieces are. But I can probably count the times I've opened the hood on my car on a single hand. I delegate it to experts and professionals. Doesn't suit me one bit. Similarly with computers. Long time career programmer, I like programming. I hate computers. I hate messing with them, opening them up, fighting with drivers, firewalls, printers, etc. I like them when they "just work".
"You two have been working on the thing all week, what are you doing?" "Making it easier to use!"
VERAULT
Veteran Member
Our Subaru outback has a modern version of that system in the display
My father taught me Bubkes about cars and engines.. most likely because he didnt know anything about them himself. I had to learn it all for myself the hard way. And I can assure you the first time I paid a mechanic to do a "brake job" on my car at 17 which cost WAY TOO MUCH.. (they were clearly taking advantage) taught me I had better learn these things or this will continue.. Scamming is just another form of bullying really.
Any idiot can do an oil change and brake job for a tiny fraction of what it costs to have someone else do it. I understand some people living in a city or having a living situation with no actual place to work on a car withstanding.
Also, I was telling my son that no self respecting man in this house will pay someone to install wiper blades or replacement bulbs....
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I like to know how things work. Always have. Thus I drove my Dad nuts by taking apart his tools. I do know how an engine works. Actually rebuilt one many years back. Was quite enjoyable knowing I had done all that work. And checked everything to spec. And it started right up. Also know how computers work pretty much. Ok, maybe not quantum computers. But everyone is different. Some like to know, some don't. Not anything against you for not caring. Peace.
westveld
Experienced Member
I think we can split that kind of knowledge into 3 levels:
Of course, it takes a bit of #1 in similar areas to get there.
If I ran the world, there would be middle & high school classes on:
- Doing your own brake job
- Knowing how to do a break job
- Basic hands-on skill and logic skills to figure out how to do a brake job if you need to
Of course, it takes a bit of #1 in similar areas to get there.
If I ran the world, there would be middle & high school classes on:
- Household finance basics
- Business basics (incl. how taxes in businesses work)
- Personal tax basics
- Shop class (auto, wood, machine)
- How Stuff Works
- Troubleshooting
- Conflict resolution
- Applied Logical thinking
- Applied Critical Thinking
- Practical Statistics - and how they can mislead
- How to get to the truth - how our brains work, biases, assumptions
Disk brakes or drum? I remember the first time I tried to do drum. The one thing I knew (and was told over and over) is only do one side at a time. Then you can refer to the other if you don't know where something goes. Well, the first one is a bear. If you try to hold everything together you can't. And you shouldn't. As you add each spring it pulls everything closer and closer till it's all back together. Oh, and have the drum brake tools helps alot. I know someone that tried to do it without and they spent hours and hours.
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