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The World's first laptop?

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Terry Yager said:
<bowing, scraping> I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy, etc...

By my own definition, a 'laptop' should be a hand-holdable computer that runs independent of the power grid, and possesses the features and power of contemporary desktop personal computers. My vote therefore still goes to the HX-20, which meets these criteria earlier than other computers, AFAIK (pending correction by The Master).

--T
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IMO, and some may consider it sacrilege, but i do not consider the HX-20's, the Tandy model 100's/102's/200's, NEC PC-8201a, PC-8300's, and that whole genre as a "laptop computer."

For *ME*, a laptop was self-sustaining, untethered, had it's own storage...

You look at the M100's, you type 8 pages, and ya gotta offload it by modem, or to a PC, or ya use a tape player or a PDD that sucks up 1/5th your RAM - what's the point?

Portable note-taker, yes.
Laptop computer? Um, not in MY opinion. I see IT as a HUGE early PDA with a keyboard, because they were VERY limited. They were cool, and they came in handy, and they had their niche (journalists doing SHORT articles) but let's face it, they were extremely limited.

That style/genre, to me, is NOT a laptop.

But, that's just MY opinion.


T
 
I agree with the 'Shark' 100 percent. Although, Evan, you have a sick amount of knowledge.

OK, I may have a biased opinion when it comes to the DG One, because my father was eventually, practically the sole servicer/supporter of these as they became obsolete. If you called Data General for support, they would send you to my father. In fact, if you called him today, he would still help you and could still sell you parts, but now it's just a hobby. I am actually selling some of his old DG One complete systems on my website, - http://rjkiley2.googlepages.com/thedg-onelaptop.

We really need to come up with a list of criteria to determine what a laptop is. For instance:

clam-shell design
flat screen
floppy drive
fixed disk drive ?
under 10 lbs.
runs on battery
runs 'regular' software/OS
what am I missing?

I would like to know if there's an older laptop than the DG One that is equally comparable in design and function to today's laptop.
 
Oh boy, lots of replies. And lots of mistakes, too. :)

I'm going to answer four of the recent posts -- in order, not logically.

Bill wrote: >>> The Grid 1101 was the first production laptop <<<

Bill ... where did I go wrong teaching you, young Jedi? You're making the same mistake others have: you are guessing. To be VERY arbitrary about 'first' (see my point a few replies ago about what 'first' really means), let's say just hypothetically that 'first' here means 'first to officially be on sale to the public'. (I don't personally believe that should be the definition, so again, I'm using it in this reply ONLY to make a point to Bill. :) )

Unless you were to find out which exact dates the Compass 1100, RoadRunner, T-3000, HX-20, and NewBrain all went on sale to the public, then you can't make any declarations about this or that one being first.

The HX-20 was very popular, but since it's from Japan, on U.S-centric Google you will not find many articles/interviews/lectures/etc. quoting its designers. Whereas the former Grid people are out there in force, still working in Silicon Valley, giving lectures at museums, etc. ... but really, that just means their story is the most popular, it doesn't make them 'first' of anything. Another common fact about the Compass (according to, for example, About.com and WIDELY copied around various web sites) is that its design began in 1979. If that is true -- a big if -- well then, do you think those other four laptops just sprang up overnight? No, their designs started a couple of years earlier as well. So, in closing to Bill, if we wish for our history to be taken seriously as 'proof' (and I know you do, since we're friends), then we can't just say, "X is the truth" -- we have to say, "X is the truth because of Y and Z".

You also said, >>> Data General made the first full-screen IBM-compatible LCD laptop. <<< .... I need to think about that for a while, but meanwhile, keep in mind that "full-screen" and "IBM<-compatible" are SUBJECTIVE criteria (I'll elaborate on that below).

Mike Chambers said, >>> yup, the osborne 1 is generally considered to be the first "laptop" ... that thing is pretty much useless. <<<

Huh? Mike, do your homework. Luggables and laptops are two completely separate categories of computer description. If you Google and find a web site declaring the Osborne a laptop, then assume the site was written by either a child or a moron (or by an adult acting childish or moronic). As for its usefulness, there are GOOD REASON why the Osborne was so popular! In the context of 1981, the Osborne was the epitome of executive toys. It ran all sorts of CP/M software, and you could TAKE IT WITH YOU without needing to carry anything else -- to home, on the airplane, into meetings. Stop and think about how groundbreaking that was in 1981.

Shark said: >>> i do not consider the HX-20's, the Tandy model 100's/102's/200's, NEC PC-8201a, PC-8300's, and that whole genre as a "laptop computer." For *ME*, a laptop was self-sustaining, untethered, had it's own storage... Laptop computer? Um, not in MY opinion. I see IT as a HUGE early PDA with a keyboard, because they were VERY limited. .... But, that's just MY opinion. <<<

Shark, I hate to say this, because you already admitted it (and since this IS a discussion forum for people to give their opinions), but .... your opinion is wrong. :) As you said, these early products like the HX-20 / Kyocera lineage were indeed rather limited. They were also red-hot sellers --- why do you think they're so easy to find today? Except for the screen size compared to the Compass, the HX-20 / Kyocera lineage were much cheaper, much more self-sustaining (8 hours on 4 AA batteries vs. needing AC power), and a decent amount of RAM for their era (even long-term storage for the HX-20, re: cassette). As for calling them PDAs, that makes no sense at all. (The best way to define a PDA is to ignore the dumb-ass marketing term of "Personal Digital Assistant" and stick with the realistic definition of "electronic organizer". Is the device primarily a gadget for keeping your calandar and contacts, or is it mainly for running traditional computer applications like word processing, spreadsheets, databases, scientific programs, etc.?)

Finally, Tredsaw said, >>> We really need to come up with a list of criteria to determine what a laptop is. For instance: clam-shell design, flat screen, floppy drive, fixed disk drive ?, under 10 lbs., runs on battery, runs 'regular' software/OS ... I would like to know if there's an older laptop than the DG One that is equally comparable in design and function to today's laptop. <<<

See, you can't DO that -- you can't pick criteria which happen to define the product YOU think should get the credit, and then say, "But the others don't match MY criteria!" Consider this -- no smartphone on the market today matches the Apple iPhone's gorgeous screen and intuitive user interface -- does it mean in 30 years from now, when such levels of visual elegance are the de facto standard, that historians should consider the iPhone the "first" smartphone? Of course not. Same goes for laptops. Yes, modern laptops have big screens, large amounts of built-in hard disk space, and lithium-ion batteries. That doesn't mean they were ALWAYS that way, nor does it mean they will always BE that way.

In computers and in many other fields, nothing is spontaneously "invented"; everything is built on something else. That is why I say the 1981-1982 laptops are the first generation, which I think is good enough -- not because I'm lazy and unwilling to do further research (and you all can see, it's quite the opposite), but because any further level of detail to the 'first' question is subjective and not so important.

For laptops or any other part of computer history, it is not enough to take one data point and say, "I agree with that data point, so I'm going to tell everyone it is a fact." History is only useful to future generations if we are exhaustive in our search for as many factual (not circumstantial, hearsay, or opinionated) data points as humanly possible, followed by the extraction of logical and scientific conclusions.
 
EvanK said:
Oh boy, lots of replies. And lots of mistakes, too. :)
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Not mistakes - opinions. This is all subjective, anyway.
Noone can DEFINITIVELY say one way or the other, because it's subjective, and there will always be grey area.

EvanK said:
Shark said: >>> i do not consider the HX-20's, the Tandy model 100's/102's/200's, NEC PC-8201a, PC-8300's, and that whole genre as a "laptop computer." For *ME*, a laptop was self-sustaining, untethered, had it's own storage... Laptop computer? Um, not in MY opinion. I see IT as a HUGE early PDA with a keyboard, because they were VERY limited. .... But, that's just MY opinion. <<<

Shark, I hate to say this, because you already admitted it (and since this IS a discussion forum for people to give their opinions), but .... your opinion is wrong. :) As you said, these early products like the HX-20 / Kyocera lineage were indeed rather limited. They were also red-hot sellers --- why do you think they're so easy to find today? Except for the screen size compared to the Compass, the HX-20 / Kyocera lineage were much cheaper, much more self-sustaining (8 hours on 4 AA batteries vs. needing AC power), and a decent amount of RAM for their era (even long-term storage for the HX-20, re: cassette). As for calling them PDAs, that makes no sense at all. (The best way to define a PDA is to ignore the dumb-ass marketing term of "Personal Digital Assistant" and stick with the realistic definition of "electronic organizer". Is the device primarily a gadget for keeping your calandar and contacts, or is it mainly for running traditional computer applications like word processing, spreadsheets, databases, scientific programs, etc.?)
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By self-sustaining, I didn't mean power longevity on batteries...I would've said power longevity on batteries!

When I say self sustaining, I mean that they are not full-blown computers - the M100/102/et al.. were designed to be extensions of a computer, not a complete system unto itself. I mean, seriously, 32kb - housekeeping RAM required? i can run out of memory on an M102 in 10 minutes time making up a story!

And, the proof is, they were USED that way - it was an extension, a portable temporary word processor, mostly, that when you returned, you uploaded to your computer, or over the modem to, you guessed it, a computer.

I have been using computers for over 30 years, I have used them new, when they were current, and used, well after their prime. I sold the M102 at Radio Shack, and I owned a PC-8201a when they were still on the market. I still stand by the statement that it is NOT a true laptop, as it cannot do much by itself, but as to serve as a portable terminal, and as a portable (VERY) small temporary writing buffer.

Go back and look at the RS ads, and you will see that is even how the marketed the product - as a portable extension to a main computer.

As for the PDA comment, I said I thought them more closer to a PDA than a laptop, because their main design idea was for portable note-taking/really small word processing, address book, calendar (remember ADDRESS and SCHEDULE in Kyocera family?).

My exact statement was "I see IT as a HUGE early PDA with a keyboard, because they were VERY limited." which I think is pretty accurate. Put a Newton 2xxx series next to a Zire, and there's a huge difference. I STILL consider the Kyocera family as a precursor to the PDA, but with a kb and BASIC inside.

Now, when you say throw out the name, and the marketing blitz, and call them what they are used for, that's getting subjective.

Just because I put wings on my car and drive it off a cliff, doesn't make it an airplane just because that's what I used it for.

Kyocera family: Is it a computer? Yeah. Is it a PROPER laptop? I don't think so. It's what a PSP is to a PS3: a peripheral for your main computer that can be taken out on it's own, and do a limited subset of the original's function.

Again, my opinion, and it's all subjective, as ANYONE can create a 'definition,' which would be subjective, meaning not everyone would agree.

T
 
Sharkonwheels said:
Not mistakes - opinions. This is all subjective, anyway.
Noone can DEFINITIVELY say one way or the other, because it's subjective, and there will always be grey area.



By self-sustaining, I didn't mean power longevity on batteries...I would've said power longevity on batteries!

When I say self sustaining, I mean that they are not full-blown computers - the M100/102/et al.. were designed to be extensions of a computer, not a complete system unto itself. I mean, seriously, 32kb - housekeeping RAM required? i can run out of memory on an M102 in 10 minutes time making up a story!

And, the proof is, they were USED that way - it was an extension, a portable temporary word processor, mostly, that when you returned, you uploaded to your computer, or over the modem to, you guessed it, a computer.

I have been using computers for over 30 years, I have used them new, when they were current, and used, well after their prime. I sold the M102 at Radio Shack, and I owned a PC-8201a when they were still on the market. I still stand by the statement that it is NOT a true laptop, as it cannot do much by itself, but as to serve as a portable terminal, and as a portable (VERY) small temporary writing buffer.

Go back and look at the RS ads, and you will see that is even how the marketed the product - as a portable extension to a main computer.

As for the PDA comment, I said I thought them more closer to a PDA than a laptop, because their main design idea was for portable note-taking/really small word processing, address book, calendar (remember ADDRESS and SCHEDULE in Kyocera family?).

My exact statement was "I see IT as a HUGE early PDA with a keyboard, because they were VERY limited." which I think is pretty accurate. Put a Newton 2xxx series next to a Zire, and there's a huge difference. I STILL consider the Kyocera family as a precursor to the PDA, but with a kb and BASIC inside.

Now, when you say throw out the name, and the marketing blitz, and call them what they are used for, that's getting subjective.

Just because I put wings on my car and drive it off a cliff, doesn't make it an airplane just because that's what I used it for.

Kyocera family: Is it a computer? Yeah. Is it a PROPER laptop? I don't think so. It's what a PSP is to a PS3: a peripheral for your main computer that can be taken out on it's own, and do a limited subset of the original's function.

Again, my opinion, and it's all subjective, as ANYONE can create a 'definition,' which would be subjective, meaning not everyone would agree.

T
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Wow, you are really mixing your analogies here.

>>> I have been using computers for over 30 years,

That's where I usually stop listening / taking an argument seriously, because the statement "I've been using for 30 years" implies "and therefore I know better than you" ... it's a dismissive statement by someone whose opinions and interpretations of 'fact' are already decided. It doesn't sound like you are willing or capable of having an objective discussion on this topic. The #1 thing you or anyone else MUST abide by in a discussion of analyzing history is that "I don't consider" is an irrelevant perspective. What we do or don't consider something today has no bearing on 30-year-old facts.

Another major point is that the term 'laptop' itself wasn't used until 1984! Bigger systems like the Compass and Teleram were only called "portables" and smaller systems like the HX-20 and Kyocera family were called "notebooks" at the time. Go look it up in Byte, Creative Computing, etc. if you don't believe me. I have looked and was not able to find ANY references to the word 'laptop' from before mid-1984. A few places mentioned "the lap computer market" but not 'laptop' per se. (If you find the term laptop used to define a portable computer published earlier than that, then please let me know. I want to see it in black-and-white, I'm not interested in what you think / guess / supposedly used to say.)

As you pointed out, the HX-20 and Kyocera family were sold as low-cost, entry-level portables; nobody is claiming they were as powerful as the Compass. But then again, the Compass was designed for aerospace and defense and other very high-end industrial purposes. In 1982 it was never intended to be a consumer laptop.

Starting to repeat myself here, but this is just so darn important -- OF COURSE the consumer-grade laptops of 1982 were more primitive and less functional than today (or than 1984, for that matter). The ENIAC in 1946 is a joke compared to mainframes of the 1970s, and the Apple II / Commodore PET / TRS-80 of 1977 are a joke compared to microcomputers of 1987 (and then of 1997 and 2007). Things always improve. Same for laptops. It just isn't fair (nor credible!) to say, "The 1982 consumer-grade portables/notebooks aren't REAL laptops because they didn't have X, Y, or Z specifications." That is bad history. Whether it's a computer or a car or TV or radio or anything else you desire, history is not defined by specifications, because then someone (like you) can always point to an arbitrary level of specs and say "This point separates real from unreal."

A laptop is a general-purpose computer that doesn't require external power and is roughly the size of an adult lap.

That is a fact, not a subjective statement.

Another fact: the evolutions of 1981-1982 (non-luggable, non-handheld) portable computers were the first to meet that definition.

The level of its software advancement, the resolution of its screen, the amount of its memory, the compatibility with IBM's standards -- none of that matters, it's all just speeds and feeds.
 
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By 30 years, I don't mean I know everything - I don't. Just that I have seen all those generations come and go, and platforms/genre come along, and being created.

And, to correct you're quoting me, i said that the HX-20/Kyocera-styles were created as an additional tool for "real" computers, like a peripheral, which is basically how RS/Epson marketed those particular items.

By your definition, and I quote:
"A laptop is a general-purpose computer that doesn't require external power and is roughly the size of an adult lap."

You would classify a Morrow Pivot, and the Zenith/Osborne equivalents, as a laptop, which we know it is not.
It IS small, smaller than the average adult lap, and it does run on battery power. By that same definition, the Amstrad PPC512/PPC640 would almost fit in the category, as it is battery-powered, and although a little wide, will fit in the adult's lap.

See where I'm getting? Even your "definition" leaves a big wonking hole of a grey area!

I loike the word notebook for those better - it's the size of a largish book, and good for taking notes - but just!


T
 
>>> HX-20/Kyocera-styles were created as an additional tool for "real" computers, like a peripheral, which is basically how RS/Epson marketed those

Not from what I've seen, but show me different if you can.

>>> You would classify a Morrow Pivot, and the Zenith/Osborne equivalents, as a laptop, which we know it is not. It IS small, smaller than the average adult lap, and it does run on battery power.

No, as you know and noted those are an evolution of luggables, also sometimes known as "lunchbox" computers in the later generations. They were "fat" while laptops are clearly of a "thin" profile. (Obviously fat and thin are not technical terms here. If it makes you happy, then I'll amend the non-official definition of this thread to include a clause for "lays flat" in one's lap.)

>>> By that same definition, the Amstrad PPC512/PPC640 would almost fit in the category, as it is battery-powered, and although a little wide, will fit in the adult's lap.

Irrelevant -- those are from much later in the 1980s. Just weird evolutionary offshoots that went nowhere. Same deal with the Convergent Workslate, Texas Instrument CC-40, Visual Commuter, IBM 5140 Convertible, Apple IIc's LCD screen ... there were all sorts of odd form factors that never became successful, and the Amstrads belong in that category.

>>> See where I'm getting? Even your "definition" leaves a big wonking hole of a grey area!

No, you're just picking obscure loopholes. My definition (as I emphasized) is only for the sake of this non-binding discussion thread...

>>> I like the word notebook for those better - it's the size of a largish book, and good for taking notes - but just!

Portable, notebook, briefcase -- all were terms used interchangeably before the term 'laptop' became popular in mid-1984.

Also, the most common term for what we now call 'luggables' other than 'portable' in the early 1980s was 'transportable'. Hans Franke taught me another usage a couple of years ago -- 'schleptop' -- I like it!
 
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After all that I have to say...I still agree with the 'Shark'. Not saying you're wrong Evan, because of course, there is no wrong. Although, I don't appreciate you taking my quote out of context - did you miss the words "for instance"? Meaning this list was an example of MY criteria, hoping to get a few of you to make your own list. Evan, we know your knowledge is legendary, but you don't really give any answers. You give a lot of opinionated details without real facts. The one fact you did give -

A laptop is a general-purpose computer that doesn't require external power and is roughly the size of an adult lap.

That is a fact, not a subjective statement.
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isn't even a fact. Seriously, who owns the right to create that definition? Even though I agree with it, it's not a fact.

You did say something interesting -

Portable, notebook, briefcase -- all were terms used interchangeably before the term 'laptop' became popular in mid-1984.
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made me think. I guess the first REAL laptop would be the one that was actually called a "laptop".
 
>>> who owns the right to create that definition? Even though I agree with it

Nobody owns the 'right' to create a definition, I just pointed out the obvious distinction between a fact and an opinion. A laptop by the word 'laptop' or any other name is still the same definition. You agreed with it because it's RIGHT.

>>> I guess the first REAL laptop would be the one that was actually called a "laptop".

No, that's wrong. "Real" is what meets the definition, not what the word used for it may be. It may be easier for you to understand with PDAs: From 1978-1992, there were LOTS of electronic organizers available. Then one day, Apple said, "PDA". That doesn't mean Apple "invented" anything and it certainly doesn't mean the Newton was the "first" PDA. It just means Apple came up with a ridiculous term for something that was already well established, that being the electronic organizer category.

Or if you're into cars, then consider Chevy panel trucks, Toyota Land Cruisers, Ford Broncos ... then in the 1990s some marketing schmoe said, "I know, let's call them sport utility vehicles!" Did that person "invent" the design, and was the Explorer (or whichever truck that happened to be the first one called and SUV) truly the first one? Of course not!

Same story applies to laptops. In addition to the specifications, the NAME is equally irrelevant.

All that matters is the definition. My definition was right, as you pointed out.
 
Tredsaw12 said:
there is no wrong
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Yes, there is. That's like people who say "there are no dumb questions" ... what a dumb thing to say, of course there are dumb questions, people ask them all the time. Also, everyone is 'special' and there are no dumb people, only uneducated people. BULLCRAP.
 
By the way, Tredsaw, I looked at your web page. Seems like your whole story is, "My dad worked at DG so everyone should listen to me." On your DG One page, you .... quote the Wikipedia entry. Top-notch research you've done there. :rolleyes:
 
OK, now I understand your brain. You just LOVE to debate, which is fine, but people will become bored with your relentless rambling if you don't make a point or ANSWER THE QUESTION. Are you a talk show host? That's EXACTLY what they do.

Anyone who would debate the phrase "there are no dumb questions", obviously is just looking for an argument. Don't even try it. I know you know what the word "relative" means.

I recant my statement, "Even though I agree with it, it's not a fact". I should have said, "I agree with it, but it's an incomplete definition, it's not a fact".

I will say, the SUV analogy is perfect. It's impossible to say who made the first SUV. It just kind of evolved.
 
"My dad worked at DG so everyone should listen to me."
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You're kidding right? I've obviously touched a nerve with you as you've resorted to insulting me. This has nothing to do with DG, laptops or my father. This has to do with you always needing to be right. You and only you.

Is there something inaccurate about the Wikipedia info on my web page?

Enlighten us.
 
>>> OK, now I understand your brain.

You have six posts here and you understand me? Impressive.

>>> I will say, the SUV analogy is perfect.

I know.

>>> It's impossible to say who made the first SUV.

No, it's just difficult. Kind of like asking what's the first laptop. Nobody can (yet) point to ONE product and say, "That, definitively, was the first" -- because first everyone would have to agree on what "first" means, nevermind what a laptop is... but the FACTS clearly point to the DVM Husky.
 
>>> you've resorted to insulting me.

No, just pointing out more facts. I'm a journalist and historian, so it is my job to find facts, regardless of whether the facts will make people happy or not.

>>> Is there something inaccurate about the Wikipedia

All of it, according to Jimmy Wales.
 
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>>> Is there something inaccurate about the Wikipedia
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Again you've taken my words out of context.

Seriously, if there's something on my web page about the DG One that's inaccurate, please correct me and I'll change it. Afterall, the truth is the only thing that really matters.
 
Wait, I missed that....did you just answer the question?

Yes, we have a winner...

the DVM Husky !!!
 
EvanK said:
I said that several posts ago. Instead of mindlessly quoting Wikipedia, work on your reading comprehension skills.
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That is bordering on personal abuse.

Evan, if your intention is to inform people about the difficulties of definitions and labels as regards answering an historical question, you've done yourself a disservice. You raised some good points but your aggressive reponses, put-downs and bullying will have switched off most people long before, they have got to this message.

If it continues people will abandon this thread or the moderators close it.
 
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