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Something just occured to me. Did I blaspheme?

D

DreadStorm

Experienced Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
161
Location
Greer, SC
I listed my network in my introduction. I'll copy and paste below to make it easier.

Is it considered blasphemous in "Vintage" circles to use third-party, slightly more updated hardware when building up these old systems? I'll give an example:
All my AT-class systems and up all use 5.25" 1.2MB & 3.5" 2.88MB floppies.
All my XT-class systems (8086, 80186, 80286) use 360K/720K floppies.
But all older systems from 386 and lower use BIOSed controllers, like the CompatiCard IV (I someday hope to get some 8" floppies for the 8086) and JDR's MCT floppy controller. Third-party 8-bit IDE controllers, VGA cards, etc.

I did the VGA mainly so I could use a few KVMs for all of them.

I'm just hoping I didn't make anyone cringe.

Wayne.

---- C&P ----
Server) Pentium-Pro 200MHz, 512MB, 4MB video, mini-tower, 2 EIDE HDs.
1) Pentium Core2Duo 3GHz, 2GB, 512MB video, double-wide tower, 10 SCSI/SATA HDs.
2) Pentium III 1.4GHz, 384MB, 256MB video, double-wide tower, 7 SCSI/EIDE/SATA HDs.
3) Pentium II 450MHz, 256MB, 128MB video, full-tower, 5 SCSI/EIDE HDs.
4) Pentium-MMX 266MHz, 128MB, 64MB video, full-tower, 5 EIDE HDs.
5) Pentium-S 200MHz, 64MB, 32MB video, mid-tower, 3 EIDE HDs.
6) 80486-DX/4 100MHz, 32MB, 16MB video, mid-tower, 3 EIDE HDs. (Incomplete! Need a motherboard!)
7) 80386-DX 33MHz, 16MB, 8MB VLB video, mid-tower, 2 IDE HDs.
8) 80286 12MHz, 8MB, 1MB video, mini-tower, 2 ESDI HDs.
9) 80186 10MHz, 2MB, 1MB video, desktop, 2 RLL HDs.
10) 8086 8MHz, 640KB, 512KB 8-bit VGA, desktop, 2 MFM HDs.
 
heh.

my opinion (but I'm only a junior member anyway) is no. Just the fact that you've got and you love your old machines is all that really matters. People are always pushing the limits of what their old machines can do (take a look at http://www.oldskool.org/pc/8088_Corruption) and putting a VGA card in a pre-VGA machine is just an extension of this idea. Since I'm rather storage limited, I have maxed out all of my machines in an attempt to get as many bells and whistles under 1 roof. Provided I have decent backward compatibility (like wanting to play a CGA game on my VGA card) I see no blasphemy.

Old machines are also (by today's standards) rather a pain in the cheeks to use sometimes. I have a difficult time having the patience to wait around to get a large set of files transferred over to my 8088-by upgrading it to use 1.44mb floppies over 360's, I can save myself some transfer time and thereby INCREASED the enjoyment of my trusty-rusty friends, and that's all that really matters.
 
If your goal is to retain the computer as close to the original configuration as possible, you're obviously steering the wrong way. If your goal is to get the vintage computers as useable as possible, I don't see much wrong in what you're doing. Personally I'm all in favor for new developed interfaces to let vintage computers access new memory cards, USB devices, network cards and such, mainly for file transfers and communication. But as soon as you install a newer floppy drive, replace MFM with IDE or build some interface to let you expand memory e.g. with 72-pin SIMM, your XT-class PCs no longer play according to the original specs.

I suppose original vs optimal configuration may be what differs a collector from a user.
 
Well, it's not so much modifying something permanently, really. I do have the original CGA and EGA cards somewhere. Like with the Tandy I posted about. Somewhere I still have the original floppy (with the blue button) but neither that nor the hard drive function anymore. To get it working I just replaced it with better, since original level wasn't available. The CGA and EGA did work, but I doubt as much now. With the MFM and RLL controllers, I tried to stay era-specific, but they're definitely newer, smaller and faster.

I suppose what I'm trying to Forrest Gump my way to, is you could say they're upgraded, but not modified. The real-world interfacing I like to do is mostly through a parallel port (in PCs, sometimes I build a prototyping expansion card).

The Commodore 64 is slightly different. With that, I either use the expansion bus slot, or the User port. The User port is easier, though. A few POKEs and PEEKs, and you're ready to control things. I just wouldn't be responsible for trying to get a C-64 to control the local manufacturing plant. ;)
 
DreadStorm said:
Is it considered blasphemous in "Vintage" circles to use third-party, slightly more updated hardware when building up these old systems? I'll give an example:
All my AT-class systems and up all use 5.25" 1.2MB & 3.5" 2.88MB floppies.
All my XT-class systems (8086, 80186, 80286) use 360K/720K floppies.
Click to expand...
Actually the 80286 is AT-class, except for some Tandy 1000s which use a 286 CPU with XT-class hardware (only 8-bit ISA slots, low-density floppy controller, etc.).

The CompuAdd 810 also blurs the distinction: it is an XT-class machine with a 9.54 MHz NEC V20 CPU, but it has a high-density floppy controller, an IDE-XT hard drive controller, and a real-time clock (Dallas 1287 chip) all on the motherboard, and many were equipped with a VGA card (in addition to the built-in Hercules/CGA video).

My 810 was originally equipped with a single 360K floppy drive (no hard drive), but I installed a modern 3½" 1.44 MB floppy drive, and I'm looking for a Seagate ST-351A/X IDE-XT hard drive to install. It has an 8-bit Western Digital VGA card and a 101-key keyboard, and the owner's manual is dated September 1989. It's the only XT machine I've heard of with a built-in high-density floppy controller; all the other popular late XTs (Tandy 1000RL, IBM PS/2 Models 25 & 30, etc.) only came with and support 720K drives.

CompuAdd also sold their 212 (12 MHz 80286) as a budget model well into the early '90s, even as they were selling 33 MHz 486s with Windows 3.1. CompuAdd's engineering was excellent, as they had all their motherboards and cases built to their specifications, rather than using generic off-the-shelf parts. Unfortunately they went bankrupt in 1993, just as Dell and Gateway were starting to take off and capture the PC clone marketplace.
 
evildragon said:
my old model 25 has been upgraded to a high extent. it's the 8086 model.

3GB HD
VGA graphics
SB16
Click to expand...
Can a SB16 even work in an 8-bit slot? I thought only the original Sound Blaster worked in XT-class machines. I have an Aztech Sound Galaxy BX II Extra in my CompuAdd 810, which is pretty much a clone of the original SB (with a really fancy name!).
 
The extra 16-bit seems to only be for high DMA and the CD controller if equipped.

you can test this.. since the SBtest only works on a 286, put your SB16 in the 8-bit slot of a 286 class system.. note the midi, 8-bit sound, and 16-bit sound works, including the fullness of 16-bit sound..

when it asks for high DMA, just say set as low. works great.

do NOT use a SB16 PNP though, XT will throw parity errors.. use the older one with jumpers.
 
The whole point to what I've been doing with my old computers for years has been pushing them to their limits of power. To me it's not blasphemy, it's just making the device useful for things other than what it was used for in it's time.

All my machines save for those I'm getting rid of or that don't work, are equipped with the following items....

- Some modern form of media to transfer large amounts of files (or a hard disk image, ie. ZIP, CD-ROM, or even in the case of XT's 1.44MB Floppy drives)

- A graphics standard that works best for what I'm using the machine for, like for XT's I usually prefer EGA or CGA over VGA because VGA tends to look a little less as nice at 320X200 with at most 16 colors. But anything 286 and newer gets a 1MB or more SVGA if possible (yes, I do use 800X600 and even 16-bit color on a 286).

- Sound Card, preferrably an old Creative Labs card of some sort, and usually a Jumpered card. My favorites include old variants of the Pro 2.0, SB 16, and the AWE32 (of which gives me an extra IDE channel on my 486 for the ZIP Drive). I often re-rout the internal speaker through the sound card (old soundblasters often had an internal speaker input on them)

- An appropriate operating system, complete with networking installed
-- 8088's, and 286's mostly run MS-DOS 6.22, with Microsoft LAN Manager or Network Client for networking, and a packet driver for internet access on an alternate boot config (my 286 has 9 different configurations).
-- 386's and slower 486 boxen use DOS 622 w/ Windows For Workgroups 3.11. I also use this on DX4-100 based systems sometimes to make a very responsive DOS/WFWG machine.
-- Fast 80486 through Pentium 90 run Windows 95 OSR2, with some mild underhood tweaks to keep the GUI from weighing the machine's performance down

The only blasphemous mods were adding a power LED and Reset to an XT motherboard, but that board had a loose ground on the power connector, so it's unoriginal anyway as far as one of the connectors is concerned.
 
Mad-Mike said:
- A graphics standard that works best for what I'm using the machine for, like for XT's I usually prefer EGA or CGA over VGA because VGA tends to look a little less as nice at 320X200 with at most 16 colors. But anything 286 and newer gets a 1MB or more SVGA if possible (yes, I do use 800X600 and even 16-bit color on a 286).
Click to expand...
It's good to keep CGA because classic PC games often use glitches in the original CGA design to get more colors on the screen, such as the 16-color 160x100 graphics mode (really a hack of text mode), which doesn't work on VGA (I'm not sure about EGA), or the red/white/cyan palette (doesn't work on VGA), or even rapidly switching between the two palettes to get double the colors (which relies on the exact timing of the CPU and 6845 video chip).
 
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