ST-225 MFM in newer PC

[Mr_Sorento]

OK everyone, I'm reviving this dead horse because I've got some news to report and still need help. I've purchased a 486DX2/66 motherboard and I've also obtained a WDC WD1003-WA2 controller card. The 486 board has only ISA slots and has no onboard IDE hard drive controllers. When I hook up the ST-225 to my old Seagate ST-22M controller card and enable the onboard BIOS on the card and set the C: drive in 486 BIOS (AMI BIOS 1992) to Type 6, I'm able to get an initial directory listing, but eventually get a "Not able to read sector" error. No success with Type 2 and Type 47 (User defined). I'm using 615 cyls, 4 heads, WPcom=300, LZ=670, 17 tracks and no workie. When I hook up the drive to the WD controller using it's default jumpers, the drive light stays on constantly and I am unable to read anything off of the drive. BTW, on the drive I have the following jumpered on the J7 block -- pins 1&2 (for radial access) and 15&16 (for drive select 0) and the terminating resistor is in place as well (single drive in system).

Can anyone out there shed any light as to what more I need to do in order to revive this old drive and let me get my data off? Thanks in advance.

Mr. Sorento

 

[vwestlife]

If you are using a hard drive controller with its own onboard BIOS, set the hard drive type in the computer's CMOS setup to no drive installed (type 0). You are confusing it by having both the motherboard and the controller try to configure the drive type.

 

[Mr_Sorento]

Can't access ST-225 in 486

Can't access ST-225 in 486

vwestlife,

I tried that and still no go. Can you at least tell me if what I have setup should be working or not. In my opinion I should be able to get something with either Type 2, Type 6 or Type 47 (user-defined) but nothing with both cards except for as I mentioned above. I've tried with the Seagate controller card with on-board BIOS enabled and disabled, I've tried without any drives configured in the 486 CMOS, I've tried with the WDC controller card. What's the right, secret combination to make it work?

Anything else??? I mean, this is isn't that difficult but for some reason these guys sure are being a bear!

Thanks,
Mr. Sorento

 

[modem7]

I've also obtained a WDC WD1003-WA2 controller card

Because there are different low level formats, there is a chance that the WD1003-WA2 cannot read the low-level format that the ST-22M has laid down on your ST-225.

the drive light stays on constantly

As I explained earlier, that is normal when an early MFM drive is connected to a later MFM controller. It's to do with 'latch mode'. Some controllers and some drives have jumpers to enable/disable latch mode. For example, see http://www.ccs-a.com/th99/c/txt/20277.txt

I'm able to get an initial directory listing, but eventually get a "Not able to read sector" error

It's a significant step to get a directory listing. You're close. Was that achieved using the ST22M BIOS OR the motherboard BIOS?

BTW, on the drive I have the following jumpered on the J7 block -- pins 1&2 (for radial access) and 15&16 (for drive select 0) and the terminating resistor is in place as well (single drive in system).

On my two ST-225s, the radial jumper is off - the only jumper being the drive select one.

 

[MikeS]

Not trying to be a pessimist, but it *is* possible that the drive *really has* bad sectors...

m

 

[Mr_Sorento]

Regarding the bad sectors, that's true, but when I try to run fdisk, it errors out as well -- saying it can't read the disk. In other words, something still isn't set right.

The directory listing was obtained using the ST22M controller card with its onboard BIOS enabled and using Type 6 in my 486 computer CMOS settings.

I believe the reason you don't need the radial jumper enabled is because you are using both ST-225's in daisy chain mode (default). Anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

What are your disk type settings and what kind of controller card are you using for accessing your ST-225's?

 

[modem7]

I believe the reason you don't need the radial jumper enabled is because you are using both ST-225's in daisy chain mode (default). Anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

My ST225s are in different computers (as the only drive).

According to what I've read, with radial mode, the drive outputs signals all of the time, instead of just when the drive is selected ('daisy chain'). If you have both of your ST225s (you write "couple" in your first post) simultaneously connected to the controller, then I expect that setting radial mode on one or more of the ST-225s will be a problem (conflicting output signals on the control cable).

But with only one ST225 connected to the controller, I can't see how the radial/daisy jumper setting will affect operation.

What are your disk type settings

Type 2 (which is what an ST-225 is).

and what kind of controller card are you using for accessing your ST-225's?

Because you are trying to read existing data off a drive, using a controller that can read the ST-22M low-level format is mandatory. Therefore, informing you of the controller model (which could use a different low-level format to the ST-22M) that I have connected to my ST225s is simply a distraction (at this time).

The directory listing was obtained using the ST22M controller card with its onboard BIOS enabled and using Type 6 in my 486 computer CMOS settings.

Per the earlier posts, only one BIOS is normally enabled. So can you confirm that when you then enabled only one BIOS at a time (set to type 2), you could no longer get a directory listing (in both cases).

I'm able to get an initial directory listing, but eventually get a "Not able to read sector" error.

Your "eventually' suggests that something is happening between the time that you get the directly listing (presumably the root directory) and the time that you get the read error. Is that the case?

To help eliminate bad sectors as the cause of the "Not able to read sector" error, did you see the same symptoms using the second ST-225? Of course, both ST-225s could have bad sectors, but they won't be in the same places.

 

[Druid6900]

Look, I have several AT motherboards and a dozen different types of controllers, send me the drive and, if it's at all possible to get information off it I will. I'll burn it to a CD and send that back.

You've been at this more than 3 months without much in the way of success and if feels good when you STOP banging your head against the wall.

 

[Mr_Sorento]

Druid,

Thanks for your offer, but I'm going to keep at it.

(BTW, actually for only a couple of weeks or so, because I'm doing it in my spare time and I had to shelve this project for the past few months due to some other projects taking higher priority.)

 

[Mr_Sorento]

modem7,

Thanks for all your helpful advice and suggestions. Unfortunately, doing everything as you've suggested and I'm still no further along. One thing I don't understand is when I told you I could get a directory listing on the one drive (single drive config), I hooked up the other drive config'd the same way and no success with it.

My original config was on a 286 clone PC (Z-248 type) circa 1993 timeframe with both drives hooked up to the ST-22M MFM controller. What I can't remember is whether or not I had the radial jumper on. I'm thinking I didn't and they were just daisy chained off the controller. I would assume I set the drive type to Type 2 as everything I've read says that's what ST225's are, however, on that note, looking at the drive parameters info, it shows a landing zone of 670, but Type 2's landing zone is 615 (I think). Either way, I've tried "User defined settings" and Type 2 settings with both controller card BIOS enabled and disabled. I'm starting to wonder if my problem could be the controller card itself instead of the drives. I say that because when the system boots up and with the controller card BIOS enabled, sometimes the BIOS message will display and when it does it always says "No drives found/attached" (or something similar to that) meaning it didn't detect any drives attached to the card. Is there any known way to test the card out to see if it's actually bad or not (other than swapping with another ST-22M card)? Also, if I low-level formatted these drives with the ST-22M card, does that mean that I won't be able to read the drives with any other kind of controller card? Like I said, I wasn't able to get anything with the WD1003-WA2 card I picked up (not much configuration options and no low-level format function). Do you recommend any other cards I could try that should be able to work with the drives? Thanks in advance.

 

[modem7]

I say that because when the system boots up and with the controller card BIOS enabled, sometimes the BIOS message will display

By "BIOS message", I presume you mean a bannner message like what most EGA and VGA cards display when a PC is booted. And so sometimes with the BIOS enabled, the BIOS [banner] message is not appearing? If that's what you mean, then there's something wrong just there. Bad controller, or bad PC. Are you seeing that same symptom for both your Pentium 75 and 486/66 ?

and when it does it always says "No drives found/attached" (or something similar to that) meaning it didn't detect any drives attached to the card.

Re the "No Drives Installed" reported by the ST22M BIOS. I am unfamiliar with the ST22M but I have some experience with HDD controllers of the 'atoconfigure' type, and a message such as "No Drives Installed" doesn't necessarily mean that the ST22M BIOS found no hard drives attached. It might be that the ST22M BIOS found the drive and then attempted to read the special information that it writes to the drive (at time of a low level format), and when it found no such information, reported "No Drives Installed".

If that is what the BIOS in the ST22M does, then the "No Drives Installed" could be because your ST-225's were not low-level formatted via the ST22M BIOS (ie. BIOS wasn't enabled).

Is there any known way to test the card out to see if it's actually bad or not (other than swapping with another ST-22M card)?

There is an internal self-test within the controller that can be invoked, but it in no way can test all components on the controller. To give it a go:
1. Run SpeedStor 6.5 (available from http://members.dodo.com.au/~slappanel555/software.htm)
2. Select 'Diagnostics' (then press ENTER)
3. Select 'Controller' (then press ENTER) - then expect to see "Internal Controller test - PASSED" at screen bottom.

Alternatively, find another MFM drive for experimentation (one you are prepared to low-level format, etc.)

Also, if I low-level formatted these drives with the ST-22M card, does that mean that I won't be able to read the drives with any other kind of controller card?

Of course, if you low-level format the drives, you'll lose any information on them. But back to your question, the answer is no. There will amost certainly be another controller that can read the low-level format, but the problem is in identifying such a controller. For example, from my experience, the Longshine 8 bit controllers (eg. LCS-6210C) lay a low-level format that only other Longshine controllers (eg. early LCS-6220) can read. Some controllers support multiple low-level formats, an example being the LCS-6622/W. JP6/J3 on that controller selects one of two formats. So what other controllers can read the low-level format laid by the ST-22M? I don't know, but I would think that at least certain other Seagate controllers would (but which ones?).

I wasn't able to get anything with the WD1003-WA2 card I picked up (not much configuration options and no low-level format function)

The norm for HDD controllers designed for ATs is that there is no BIOS/configuration. You connect the drive, set the drive type into the ATs BIOS setup, then run a low-level formatter such as SpeedStor or the IBM Advanced Diagnostic disk. The WD1003-WA2 is in that category.

(Note that in SpeedStor, a low-level format is done via the 'Initialize' function)

Do you recommend any other cards I could try that should be able to work with the drives?

By 'work' do you mean 'read the existing data from'. I ask because for all I know you may have reached the point of giving up on reading the existing data and are now looking for a controller that is known to work (after a low-level format) with the ST-225.
If the latter, your WD1003-WA2 controller should be compatible with the ST-225. Set drive type 2 into the ATs BIOS setup, then run a low-level formatter such as SpeedStor or the IBM Advanced Diagnostic disk.

 

[Mr_Sorento]

Yes, the BIOS message I'm referring to is the banner message from the ST-22M controller card and yes, I get the same indications with both my Pentium 75 and my 486 motherboards, which started leading me to believe the controller card may be bad. I have plans to either get another controller card and/or another MFM drive to test with to see if I can make any further progress on this. Gotta love technology when it gets old and no longer supported, eh?

Thanks for your help and info so far. I will keep looking around for some MFM drives and controller cards and keep at this. I'll keep you posted.

 

[Scirocco]

Hello All!


This week I bought 2 ST225 hard disk drives and I'd like to try and test them. I have never used MFM drives, so I have no exprience. My test machine is a 486DX PC.

I bought a Perstor 180-16F (16 bit) controller and put it into the 486.
It looks like the Rev:2.2 here (second picture):
http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-di...S-INC-Two-MFM-or-RLL-ST506-ST412-dri-208.html
(but supports either hard drives and floppy drives)

So, there are some interesting things I saw, for example: if the controller is in the PC, no drives work. No floppy, and no hdd. I was searching so lot, tried so many things, but I don't know whether I do something wrong, or the controller is bad.
Things I've tried:
- switched off the IDE hdd in the CMOS
- disabled the IDE hdd on the motherboard (by jumper)
- put the floppy cable from the motherboard onto the MFM controller
- several different jumper settings on the MFM controller,
but no drives work if the controller is in the PC. If I take it out, everything works fine again.

I have never used MFM controller yet, so I'm wondering: is it possible, if I put the controller into the motherboard, the controller switches off all the drives? (the IDE hdd, the 5 1/4" and the 3 1/2" floppy too.)

I discovered another thing: some part of the controller becomes warm after ~60 secs working. So it makes me think, that the maybe the controller is bad.

I would like to ask: is there any special way if I want to use the floppy drives when an MFM controller is in the machine?


Thank You very much for Your help in advance!

 

[Chuck(G)]

With the BIOS enabled, do you see a signon message from the BIOS? If not, it could be that the BIOS PROM is bad. On an AT or better, the HDD support is in the motherboard BIOS, but is on the HDD card for an XT.

 

[Raven]

If your BIOS offers the relevant options, try disabling all of the onboard controllers for IDE, FDD, etc.

 

[Scirocco]

Chuck(G):
I tried to switch on the BIOS on the MFM card, but I didn't see any difference, no message.

Raven:
I disabled the onboard controllers (the IDE and the FDD too), then I plugged the floppy cable to the MFM controller, but the floppy didn't work.

In my previous post I wrote that there's a part of the controller what becomes warm after ~1 min working. I attached a photo about that part (marked with red lines).

 

[Chuck(G)]

I'm going to take an (informed) wild guess here. The IC above the PLCC is an MC10105P ECL gate, sharing the same ground plane as the PLCC, with plenty of discretes. VTC, I'm guessing is Vitelic, a now-defunct maker of memory chips. So, I'm going to guess that the PLCC is an ECL ROM, probably used in encoding or decoding the bit stream (this is an RLL controller, after all). The "BIT5" legend on the chip would seem to confirm this.

So, if it is what it appears to be, it will run warm. ECL chips just do--they're fast, but power-hungry.

 

[MikeS]

It wouldn't explain the symptoms but is that controller (reliably) compatible with ST-225s? You'd almost certainly have to do a low-level format if you get it recognized, and even then...

 

[mikey99]

You may need to experiment with the various jumpers on the Perstor MFM controller.
I would try disabling the floppy on the Perstor card .....Floppy drive disabled JP13 pins 2 & 3 closed and Enable the floppy on the motherboard.

If the floppy on the MB works ok with the Perstor card installed , then see if you can access the MFM drive.
Assuming the MFM drive was not formatted with the Perstor controller, you will not be able to access it but you should
be able to format it. If the Perstor controller still wont see the MFM drive or the machine wont boot you might try the alternate
hard drive address

Hard drive port address is 170-177h JP8 pins 2 & 3 closed

To format the drive you would typically use debug from DOS and the address of the BIOS like below:

DEBUG (enter)
g=c800:5 (enter)

 

[SteveH]

Something else you could try... have you got a copy of Norton System Information tool or such like that you could run to show you what memory addresses are occupied by ROMS. If you have, run this without the Perstor fitted. Note any ROM addresses and see if they conflict with the Perstor ROM address. If there is a conflict, change jumpers JP1/2 to JP1/9 to use a different address (as per the BIOS address table on the web site you listed).

Edit: I've just noticed on the web page mentioned, that the default BIOS address is C800 and can only be change after first cutting trace wires. Only do this if you are comfortable cutting the PCB traces on your Perstor.