8-Bit IDE Controller

[Druid6900]

Druid6900, please check your PMs. Bobwatts is ready to mail the card to you for hardware investigation.

Sorry, nothing in my mailbox from Bobwatts.

One a few days ago from you suggesting it, but, that's it.

 

[hargle]

Sorry, nothing in my mailbox from Bobwatts.

One a few days ago from you suggesting it, but, that's it.

ok, I just emailed you from here bob's email address and mine.
in short, bob and I think it's best to ship the card to you first, since I still have some work to do that I don't need immediate hardware.

 

[bobwatts]

We're on it ! :D

Card goes out this week, maybe tomorrow.

bob

 

[Druid6900]

Ok, now, that's weird.

I go the e-mail notification and message with your e-mails in it, but, there isn't hide nor hair of it in my mail folders on here.

Anyway, the thing that seems to be up in the air is who is doing the design work? I know I started to do the board layout of the card that was mentioned near the beginning of the thread (the ROMless one).

Shortly thereafter, the Acculogic card came up and Hargle mentioned that the designers where he worked were going to do it because they had nothing to do.

Based on that, as far as I know, I'm just going to see if the PALs decode into any known chip and identify any previously unidentified ICs.

If the PALs come up blank, is there anyone here that has the facilities to copy and program the chips? If not, we're pretty much dead in the water on that card.

 

[bobwatts]

Clarification

Clarification

Hi Gang !

I have (once again pulled the 'ol WhiZZbanG XT out of DEEP storage ) pulled the adapter card out this morning, and wanted to clear a few things up.

There has been a lot of mention about a "scraped off" PAL on this card, but it's just a problem with the scan. If you all were referring to the upper right chip, it reads:

GS 9421
GD 74LS00

All of the chips are pefectly legible, so if that's not the one people were referring to, let me know.

Also, and more importantly, there seems to be just a bit of confusion about who is doing what. I would like clarification about if facilities are going to be provided to clone or reverse engineer one of these cards, and who is going to do it.

Thanks !

bobwatts
EartH

 

[per]

Hi Gang !
There has been a lot of mention about a "scraped off" PAL on this card, but it's just a problem with the scan. If you all were referring to the upper right chip, it reads:

GS 9421
GD 74LS00

I think the two undefined IC's are maybe some kind of 256 Byte ROM or similar (I got one of them on my Ethernet adapter), PAL's as sombody suggested a little earlier, or just some normal TTL IC's covered with stickets.

They problably got a number under the sticket, since they're not appearing with stickets on the box drawing.

The Boot ROM is problably a standard 27(C)64.

 

[hargle]

hi all, some catching up to do:

Druid, if you're willing to, ID all the parts, do a pinout and a schematic, even if it's on a napkin, and check the availability of the individual parts themselves.
PALs may be difficult. I do have a PAL reader/burner here, but I have never used it before and I don't know if it can handle the work (I suspect that it could, provided I've got all the adapters needed). If you can figure out how the PALs work and perhaps figure out another piece of hardware that does the same job, even better. Do whatever magic you need to do to understand this beast.

We can at this point attempt to figure out some hardware changes. (movable I/O base address, can we support DMA, can we get an eeprom on there instead of a ROM only, etc)


I have 2 co-workers, who are board layout guys, who at this moment are bored layout guys because they've got nothing to work on. I'd need to pull a couple strings, but I don't see it being too difficult to get a schematic and parts list into their hands, and for them to do the trace and route job. I am not sure what software they use for that stuff, nor how to get things into their hands, but I'll snoop around and see what I need to do and get back to you.

From there, I assume we get a gerber file or whatever with the layout ready to go, and we can send that file off to any manufacturing house to get some boards created, then we hand assemble everything and give it a test. I will gladly pay for the initial run of PCBs.

That's a software guy's perspective on the next order of events.

 

[Druid6900]

hi all, some catching up to do:

Druid, if you're willing to, ID all the parts, do a pin-out and a schematic, even if it's on a napkin, and check the availability of the individual parts themselves.
PALs may be difficult. I do have a PAL reader/burner here, but I have never used it before and I don't know if it can handle the work (I suspect that it could, provided I've got all the adapters needed). If you can figure out how the PALs work and perhaps figure out another piece of hardware that does the same job, even better. Do whatever magic you need to do to understand this beast.

We can at this point attempt to figure out some hardware changes. (movable I/O base address, can we support DMA, can we get an eeprom on there instead of a ROM only, etc)


I have 2 co-workers, who are board layout guys, who at this moment are bored layout guys because they've got nothing to work on. I'd need to pull a couple strings, but I don't see it being too difficult to get a schematic and parts list into their hands, and for them to do the trace and route job. I am not sure what software they use for that stuff, nor how to get things into their hands, but I'll snoop around and see what I need to do and get back to you.

From there, I assume we get a gerber file or whatever with the layout ready to go, and we can send that file off to any manufacturing house to get some boards created, then we hand assemble everything and give it a test. I will gladly pay for the initial run of PCBs.

That's a software guy's perspective on the next order of events.

OK, I have no problem doing a RevEng on the board, but, there are a few deal busters here;

- If the PALs don't read to anything then they have to be read/duplicated. If not, there is no way the board will work. Period. If they DO read as an available chip then we're good.

- Working out the boolean table from a PAL would be horrendously time-consuming and may require half a dozen chips or an EPROM to emulate. We'd probably be done faster building from scratch. It might be best, if they don't cross to anything usable, to have you ship the reader/burner to me to figure out as I'll have the chips off the board anyway. Even if there is a way to dump the PALs in the same manner as a ROM (which I doubt), we'd still need to burn new ones.

There is no sense having me do the schematic and your guys to the board layout (or vice versa) as, with most modern commercial software, it's two clicks from the schematic to the board layout. If they have nothing to do, it may be best for them to do both as I have LOTS to do.

Just my thoughts on the most expedient way to handle the project.

 

[hargle]

- Working out the boolean table from a PAL would be horrendously time-consuming and may require half a dozen chips or an EPROM to emulate. We'd probably be done faster building from scratch. It might be best, if they don't cross to anything usable, to have you ship the reader/burner to me to figure out as I'll have the chips off the board anyway. Even if there is a way to dump the PALs in the same manner as a ROM (which I doubt), we'd still need to burn new ones.

ok, we'll cross the PAL bridge when we get to it I guess, and see if there are workarounds if required. I always thought that PALs were at least readable like a ROM and copyable. that's a bummer.

There is no sense having me do the schematic and your guys to the board layout (or vice versa) as, with most modern commercial software, it's two clicks from the schematic to the board layout.

That's cool! I didn't know that was so simple nowadays. Maybe we don't need them then.

I figured 1/2 of the work is going to be IDing the parts and multimetering the pins to find out where they go to each other and duplicating that in some schematic software. Then the other 1/2 was coming up with the correct dimensions of the PCB, laying out the parts, creating the whole ISA slot tooth points, etc. I can have my guys do that 2nd half, but not the 1st.

You do whatever you can, I'll continue carrying the torch when you've had enough of it. If that requires me to take a crash course in board tools, so be it. When you've done everything you can with the card itself, send it my way and I'll at a minimum get the BIOS up to date.

 

[Druid6900]

ok, we'll cross the PAL bridge when we get to it I guess, and see if there are workarounds if required. I always thought that PALs were at least readable like a ROM and copyable. that's a bummer.


That's cool! I didn't know that was so simple nowadays. Maybe we don't need them then.

I figured 1/2 of the work is going to be IDing the parts and multimetering the pins to find out where they go to each other and duplicating that in some schematic software. Then the other 1/2 was coming up with the correct dimensions of the PCB, laying out the parts, creating the whole ISA slot tooth points, etc. I can have my guys do that 2nd half, but not the 1st.

You do whatever you can, I'll continue carrying the torch when you've had enough of it. If that requires me to take a crash course in board tools, so be it. When you've done everything you can with the card itself, send it my way and I'll at a minimum get the BIOS up to date.

Ok, let me see if I can clarify this.

PALs are readable and copiable, if you have a reader/burner, which I don't.

I have a chip tester that compares the tables of most known chips (TTL, CMOS and DIP RAM), stored in an on-board ROM, against the chip that is inserted into the ZIF socket.

If one of the tables matches what a given chip is set up for, it will display the chip number (and any others that can be substituted for that chip) and allow me to dynamically test it.

If it doesn't find a match, then there is no known chip in its ROM that identifies the target chip.

In that case, we would need your reader/burner to produce the configuration on whatever chip blank they are using.

So, IF the chip doesn't resolve to any known "standard" IC, then either I send you the two PALs and you learn to work the reader/burner, or you send ME the reader/burner and I read the chips to a file.

Then I send you the card with the chips re-installed, the reader/burner and the file (and instructions on how to burn the required PALs).

Gee, thanks. Part two is the EASY part LOL

Fine, I'll do everything except the ROM, but, I want this sucker to be called the "Druid6900 8/16-bit IDE Controller. Mk I"

 

[hargle]

thanks for the clarification. that actually makes me happier-in that just copying a PAL is way better than having to program our own and/or reverse engineering it.

I'm assuming one of the PALs on that board is the thing that decodes the I/O commands off the ISA bus at a specified address. In the BIOS, I see these I/O addresses as being 360-367, 368, and 36E. 360-367 is standard the standard IDE controller register block, 368 is the upper 8 bits of the data, and 36E appears to be some reset. (it gets toggled high and low, but never very often)

Id' think that PAL is most certainly not going to be something that has been reproduced in an IC, so that's the one we'll end up having to copy. That's totally fine with me, provided my burner works and I can get blanks. I'll dig up the model number on the thing, and see where the software is.

Gee, thanks. Part two is the EASY part LOL
Fine, I'll do everything except the ROM, but, I want this sucker to be called the "Druid6900 8/16-bit IDE Controller. Mk I"

well, if you're doing the PCB silkscreen, you can make it say whatever you want!
and since I'm doing the BIOS, I get to make the boot screen say whatever I want, and you'll be looking at the boot screen more often than the silkscreen.
----------
edit later:

I have both a BPMicro Bp-1200 and PLD-1128 burners, along with an array of heads/sockets that fit onto the reader itself. If you can send me the part numbers for the PALs themselves, I can look 'em up in the software to make sure the reader can talk to the parts. I don't suspect this will be a problem at all though.

 

[Druid6900]

The more I think of this, the more fun I think it's going to be (not).

In board design, one calls up a pin-out of the chip to see which pin a signal applied to pin X of the chip comes out. It makes it pretty simple, however, with a PAL, because it's custom programmed, there IS no diagram of the thing.

Never having had to do it before, it should be a challenging (and time-consuming) operation.

However, as I have mentioned, if your readers/burners can't handle the chip (which I'll heat the labels off of and let you know the series) using this board design will come to an abrupt end. I'll get you the series numbers before doing anything else.

 

[hargle]

However, as I have mentioned, if your readers/burners can't handle the chip (which I'll heat the labels off of and let you know the series) using this board design will come to an abrupt end. I'll get you the series numbers before doing anything else.

excellent, good first step. I feel pretty good that my programmer can handle them; the card and my programmer are of a similar vintage, and the software has support for thousands of different parts. I have been told I have chronic optimism though.

if the PAL thing does come to a dead end, perhaps we could do something through this route?

http://www.pjrc.com/tech/8051/ide/index.html

(using a low power/cost cpu instead of a PAL)

i dunno-this hardware stuff is voodoo to me.

 

[bobwatts]

Hi Gang !

There is a slight delay in shipping the card, and when I hear back from Richard it should be taken care of.

I was wondering today ( and keep in mind this is not my area of expertise ) if it wouldn't be possible to make a new "up to date" card of similar abilities.

What I mean by this, is for example the difference in a 286 motherboard with support chips all over it, and a newer P4 board with basically most or all functions consolidated into just a couple of chips ( chipsets).

Although I have no (idea what I am typing about ) idea what all the chips on the Acculogic sIDE 8/16 controller card does, wouldn't it seem logical that in the years since that card was created that there is probably a better way to do what it does, with less chips ?

Just a thought....

bobwatts
EartH

 

[hargle]

As I see it, the largest hurdle we're trying to overcome is the fact that the bus itself is 8 bit, yet the interface to and from the HDD is 16 bit. That means we have to buffer that 1/2 data and store it until the CPU is ready for it.

The problem with moving to newer hardware is that it all assumes that we've got a 16 or 32bit bus already at our disposal, and since we don't we get into timing and buffering problems and all kinds of icky from there.

It's quite likely that we're going to be so smart about IDE after doing this that another round of cards might be on the menu with different hardware. I dunno.

I personally would like to see more cards made-I want to make one that works in a PCjr, and I would love to make a card that has a built in compact flash support. We need to add cheap, big storage to *everything*

 

[bobwatts]

In the mail

In the mail

As I see it, the largest hurdle we're trying to overcome is the fact that the bus itself is 8 bit, yet the interface to and from the HDD is 16 bit. That means we have to buffer that 1/2 data and store it until the CPU is ready for it.

The problem with moving to newer hardware is that it all assumes that we've got a 16 or 32bit bus already at our disposal, and since we don't we get into timing and buffering problems and all kinds of icky from there.

It's quite likely that we're going to be so smart about IDE after doing this that another round of cards might be on the menu with different hardware. I dunno.

I personally would like to see more cards made-I want to make one that works in a PCjr, and I would love to make a card that has a built in compact flash support. We need to add cheap, big storage to *everything*

OK, understood. Frankly, just having 16 bit IDE support ( and I think you mentioned you broke the 528M limitation, up to 8.4G ?) would be fantastic in a readily available card (and *possibly* ATAPI CD-ROM support) would be neato. :D

The card was mailed out this morning. (Was a ridiculous $24.50 for some reason. ) Sent via USPS. Richard should be getting it soon.

bobwatts
EartH

 

[Druid6900]

OK, understood. Frankly, just having 16 bit IDE support ( and I think you mentioned you broke the 528M limitation, up to 8.4G ?) would be fantastic in a readily available card (and *possibly* ATAPI CD-ROM support) would be neato. :D

The card was mailed out this morning. (Was a ridiculous $24.50 for some reason. ) Sent via USPS. Richard should be getting it soon.

bobwatts
EartH

How did you send it? Cruise missile?

Probably all the insurance.

While it's on it's way, I'm going to try an experiment on some boards to see if, by using a chip-clip wired to a ribbon cable socket, I can test chips on an unpowered board with my chip tester. If so, I won't have to take the PALs off the board at all.

If it works, I can send the cable along with the board to Jeff and he could read them in circuit too.

 

[bobwatts]

Friday on EartH

Friday on EartH

Hi Richard !

How did you send it? Cruise missile?

Probably all the insurance.

While it's on it's way, I'm going to try an experiment on some boards to see if, by using a chip-clip wired to a ribbon cable socket, I can test chips on an unpowered board with my chip tester. If so, I won't have to take the PALs off the board at all.

If it works, I can send the cable along with the board to Jeff and he could read them in circuit too.

Cruise missile !?¿¿ You know what it costs just to fuel one of those things? Besides, they are nowhere NEAR as accurate as those few lucky shot videos you see on the Cartoon Network. Nope, they are still mad at me at the Post Office over that last incident, and are just trying to recoup some of the cost of the rebuild. :twisted:

Richard you do what you have to do, I'm done whining and fretting over it. I'm sure the card is in good hands.

If I ever run across that POS Juko card I bought new many years ago, I'll donate that to someone. I'm pretty sure I threw it away though, 'cause I never got it to work, and (following the directions) that was the ONLY time I ever blew something computer related up.

Well, there was that other thing.......

Keep us posted !

bobwatts
EartH

 

[Jorg]

I'm getting really getting excited seeing this might go for real...

I'd certainly be in for buying one or more. I wish I could help, but my hardware development capabilities, they are zero...

But I'll keep reading, its fascinating..

 

[JT64]

Maybe stupid idea

Maybe stupid idea

But didn't the old SB AWE32 and 16 have an ATA/IDE interface?
What pins did the data transfer over the last 8?

No possible way to make driver work on 8-bit bus?

JT