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Ibm 5160

D

Dominick

Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
11
Location
NYC
I'm restoring an IBM 5160.

I'm currently in the first phase, which is getting it working.

Two issues I need to address which I'd like to throw out there :grin:

1. Remember Y2K? LOL Well... is there a BIOS upgrade wich will allow me to go past 1999?

2. The ST-221 MFM which came with the machine is recognized by the system, but when I try to FDISK so that I can then format it, I get: "error reading drive".:confused: I'm working under the assumption that since it knows the drive is there, the problem is with the drive itself and not the controller. Agreed? Disagree?

Drive or controller, I'm going to need to replace parts. Can anyone provide me with a good source for parts?

Thank you.
Dom
 
Dominick said:
1. Remember Y2K? LOL Well... is there a BIOS upgrade wich will allow me to go past 1999?
Click to expand...

XTs don't have an internal clock. Those were found on cards like the AST Six-Pak and may or may not be Y2K compliant, depending on the card.

Dominick said:
2. The ST-221 MFM which came with the machine is recognized by the system, but when I try to FDISK so that I can then format it, I get: "error reading drive".:confused: I'm working under the assumption that since it knows the drive is there, the problem is with the drive itself and not the controller. Agreed? Disagree?
Click to expand...

MFM drives have to be low-level formatted before they can be high-level formatted and partitioned. Usually (although not always), the controller ROM contains a program for this. To access it, you normally start DEBUG and type G C800:5

The partitioning with FDISK is the last thing you do after the low-level and high-level format. The hard disk may not work in the end anyway because MFM drives aren't very reliable, but give it a try.
 
Fallo said:
MFM drives have to be low-level formatted before they can be high-level formatted and partitioned. Usually (although not always), the controller ROM contains a program for this. To access it, you normally start DEBUG and type G C800:5

The partitioning with FDISK is the last thing you do after the low-level and high-level format. The hard disk may not work in the end anyway because MFM drives aren't very reliable, but give it a try.
Click to expand...

Correct. Except you got the order wrong. Low level format first, then partition, then high level format. You can't format the disk from DOS if there is no partition table. :)

Time and time again I hear people instantly dismissing MFM drives as unreliable. They aren't really all that bad - I've been able to get _most_ drives to work properly. Sure, they are *less* reliable than newer drives, but still, not too bad. I think most people don't give it enough of a chance.

One thing to remember about MFM drives - the formatting is rather controller specific. You can't just pull the drive out of one machine, plug it into another and expect it to work straight off without a low-level format first.

What kind of controller do you have? Sometimes the entry point for the ROM based format routine is in a different place, depending on the controller manufacturer.

-Ian
 
I have to say... I don't ever recall using the DEBUG command. It was always "FDISK" to create the partition and "FORMAT C:/S" to format the partition.

Again... can anyone direct me to a good source of parts?
 
Dominick said:
I have to say... I don't ever recall using the DEBUG command. It was always "FDISK" to create the partition and "FORMAT C:/S" to format the partition.
Click to expand...

This is very true of modern IDE drives, but MFM and RLL drives were a bit different. A low level format was required to physically write the sectors to the disk.

Dominick said:
Again... can anyone direct me to a good source of parts?
Click to expand...

This is the tricky question. I've gotten parts from ebay, from doing some google searches and a local store, it simply is not as easy to find parts as it should be.

Also, try and post in the items needed section, perhaps someone on the forum has what you need.

Good luck with your project.
 
Yeah, if you have never worked on a machine using MFM or RLL type hard drives, you won't remember using DEBUG commands. But, for those types of disks, is it necessary that you low level format them before the rest of the system can use or access them.

What kind of controller do you have? What happens when you try to enter the format routine through DEBUG?

Parts are around, and shouldn't be that hard to find. But, again, I don't think you need parts just yet. First you need to determine if your existing hardware works. I think it does - the "error reading drive" error tells me that the controller can address the drive, it just can't do anything with it because it's not properly low level formatted.

-Ian
 
On the hard disk, if it wasn't clear, the process is this:
  • Low-level format using DEBUG or a maintenance floppy.
  • FDISK
  • FORMAT /S
Early IDEs could also be low-level formatted--and there were a few that could get messed up badly if you tried and weren't supposed to.

Specifically, what parts are you looking for?
 
Well... I was thinking that I needed a new MFM drive and was going to replace the ST-251.

But now everyone here has me thinking... maybe I should try the 'debug' command first. :blush:

I'm not certain which controller I have. I'd have to take the cover off and look.

Will I cause any damage if I try the debug command with some of the 'standard' or 'usual' addresses?

If not, can someone provide me with the correct usage syntax?

Thank you
 
You won't hurt anything by entering the wrong entry point. There are several different ones for the various types of disk controllers. If you type one that doesn't correspond to the controller in your machine, it'll just hang. Reboot it and try another one.

The common ones are:

G=C800:5
G=CA00:5
G=CC00:5
G=CE00:5

One of those should dump you into the controller format routine. The other ones will all hang the computer ;)

You will also need to know the specs of your hard drive. Things like the number of heads, cylinders, etc. For the interleave, 1:3 is pretty standard for an XT.

Once it's low level formatted, reboot and use FDISK to make a partition, then use DOS to format it and make it bootable.

-Ian
 
I have controllers here that activate their low-level format by entering the option ROM with an offset of 8, not 5. I suspect there are other offsets used too, since the standard entry point for initialization is 3. There's nothing that says you have to follow that with a short jump.

And some controllers require that a low-level format program be run from diskette.

If you're in doubt, enter the following command at the DEBUG hyphen prompt:

DC800:0

And report back on what the first line of output is.
 
UPDATE...


The first thing I did when I got home was to take the cover off (AGAIN) and find out EXACTLY what drive I was working with... an ST-238R

At the debug prompt, G=C800:5 worked. It went through the debug routine and I selected option 7 which listed several Seagate drives, among them the ST-238R.

The geometry reported matched what was on the drive, however, there was no interleave listed. The debug routine gave an option of selecting 2-9. I selected 4 as this was the interleave used by another member of this forum for the same drive.

Everything went well. It did whatever it needed to do and successfully rebooted after I inserted the DOS STARTUP disk.

I started FDISK and went through the routine, setting up a primary dos partition. I selected the maximum size (33 MB) and allowed it to work...

Its still working... for about 10 minutes. The light is on... and it is making a repetative sound, but nothing else is happening.:confused:

Suggestions?
 
Sounds as if a good hard-disk diagnostic test might be in order. I'd start in the SIMTEL library; if you can't find one, I'm sure I can come up with one.

Does your hard disk BIOS menu include a test to check for bad sectors?
 
I'll have to take a closer look. I'd like to mark all bad sectors. I think this may be the problem. I'll let you know.

PS... thanks to everyone for the continued support.:grin:
 
When you ran the controller formatting routine, how long did that take? It should have thunked away at the drive for a fair amount of time, formatting it.

ISTR a controller that allowed you to tell it what drive was attached without actually formatting it... If that's what happened, then it'll get confused as hell trying to access it. What controller do you have?

I've also had drives that needed to be low level formatted twice to find all the bad spots.

I recommend running a utility called Spinrite II. It's a hard disk diagnostic tool, and should give you some more information. Avaliable here:
http://vetusabandonware.com/download/Spinrite II 1.1/?id=4591

-Ian
 
UPDATE...

When I did the low-level routing (G=C800:5), I followed the prompts and the ST238R was actually listed. Selecting the defaults (which matched what was written on the drive), it went through the routine without incident. It simply ended and then prompted me to "insert startup Disk and reboot".

When I rebooted and started "FDISK" it went right into the routine. I selected the maximum size partition at first, but then did it again, telling it "no" I didn't want to use the maximum size. I'd read on another post that since it was an RLL drive connected to a MFM controller that it wouldn't format out to more than 20 megs.

So, I selected "no" the second time around and proceeded. It clunked away, just as it did the first time.

I'm not so sure how long this should take. I think I let it run for about 15 minutes and then stopped it. Should I let it go on longer?

Also, spinrite and other diagnostics would be helpful. Thank you for the link. I really need to get my hands on a 5.25 floppy drive for a modern machine so I can convert these files over to media than I can use in the 5160.

If anyone can provide me with the necessary utils to diagnose this problem, I'd be happy to compensate them for their time & materials if they would just provide them on a 5.25 fd.
 
You can simply borrow the disk drive out of your 5160 and hook it up to a newer PC.

Or, if you do find another drive, you'll have much better luck with a DSDD drive, rather than a high density drive, since the DD drives use wider tracks - and while you CAN write DD disks in a HD drive, it's not quite as reliable.

-Ian
 
Dominick said:
When I did the low-level routing (G=C800:5), I followed the prompts and the ST238R was actually listed.
......
When I rebooted and started "FDISK" it went right into the routine. I selected the maximum size partition at first, but then did it again, telling it "no" I didn't want to use the maximum size. I'd read on another post that since it was an RLL drive connected to a MFM controller that it wouldn't format out to more than 20 megs.
Click to expand...

If your ST238R is listed in the controller's firmware, then chances are it's an RLL controller... What controller do you have?

-Ian
 
As far as parts go, if you are located somewhere close to Boyertown, Pennsylvania you can always try Zerns. There's one store there, Kemner's Computers, the owner has tons and tons of obsolete computer hardware, and other old electronics as well. You might have to ask the guy there about some stuff because not everything is on display. The only thing I can think of to warn you about is that some of the parts there are in need of a good cleaning, and his parts are not the cheapest.

Also, a restoration guide I found while restoring my XT: http://www.uncreativelabs.net/xtreview/xtreview.htm
 
UPDATE...

I tried going to VETUSWARE... having problems registering. Trouble with the captcha field.
 
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