• Please review our updated Terms and Rules here

Why schools don't want old computers

yeah you can do perfectly fine surfing the net with a pentium 2. slower than that and it gets a little hairy once you get into the multimedia arena.

pentium 1 + youtube = fail.
 
Unknown_K: Computers are like cars these days, few people have a clue how they work inside because they do not need to.
Nobody needs to know how anything works if they pay someone else to do things for them. But how far is someone going to go? Having had polio when I was little, I now need help with some things, but I'm not going to roll over and expect the world to do everything for me. I can damn well cook and eat and fix my electronics and plumbing and stuff like that and would feel quite ashamed of myself if I was not to do some effort of my own. Not being in control of the physical items such as cars, houses, electrics, electronics, computers, etc., is an admission of a disability. If that disability is real then fine, but if it is not, there is something wrong with getting help, whether you pay for it or not. There is nothing wrong with someone being in a wheelchair and not being able to get the firewood in by themselves, but pretending to be disabled is not healthy IMHO. To me the kids need to learn how to fix the car and maintain a computer. Unless you're going to teach them to be disabled and spend the rest of their lives dependent on others.

JeffMeunier: Dell really knows what they are doing, and it bothers me. Good for Dell, bad for us.
One would have hoped that an academic institution would be wise to salesmen. :) I'm not sure how that problem could be overcome.

barythrin: Maybe a certain part of the problem is consumer ignorance.
Certainly. I remember the first time I saw a sticker that said "No consumer servicable parts inside". I was young and became quite offended. How would they know? After a short investigation, I discouvered that they were wrong. Being a youngster and not really understanding the full picture, I called them liars. As time went on, I started seeing more and more of that. The manufacturers are actively discouraging people from fixing things. They actually want you to throw that item into the landfill, and as soon as possible too. Many people believed those stickers and other warnings, and now a large part of the population is disabled... or think they are. (see above) In my opinion the schools should have educated the students to understand what was going on there, but instead many of them turned out to be in kahutz with the manufacturers.
Regarding the rest of your post. Yep. I think the schools are actually very "fashion concious" and worse, they bow to pressure from the wrong sources. Too bad.
 
"No consumer servicable parts inside" probably means there are no replacable fuses so don't bother.

I don't see not being able to fix computers or cars being a disability. You need some decent knowledge of both and the correct tools to be able to do much, and a technical background to troubleshoot. Back when computers were geek toys most people who had them knew how to service them. Now that everybody on the planet has a machine (yea they are that cheap now) you have people who never opened up the case and do not plan on it. I see too many people that think computer repair is easy (it is to me, but I have experience dating back to DOS), but for the non techies it is not.
 
"...Now that everybody on the planet has a machine (yea they are that cheap now) you have people who never opened up the case and do not plan on it. I see too many people that think computer repair is easy (it is to me, but I have experience dating back to DOS), but for the non techies it is not.

But these days, it's often easier and cheaper to replace, rather than repair. I'm not saying that's a good thing. It's just the way things are.

Tez
 
Its cheaper to get free LCDs and pay a few dollars for parts and fix them then to buy a new one. The good thing about bad solder jobs is that its easy to fix and those things still use thru hole parts.

Granted it is cheaper to swap parts out then trying to fix individual components since everything is just a custom chip these days.
 
"No consumer servicable parts inside" probably means there are no replacable fuses so don't bother.
That's one way to look at it. My view is that they should be honest and say "no replaceble fuses inside" if that is what they mean. :) One should at least have a look. Perhaps there are dead flies or even tin wiskers or some other kind of visible short. Electronics have been ubiquitous for over 3 generations now. Obviously not everyone can be a specialist, but to me there is something not right about cultivated ignorance.

I don't see not being able to fix computers or cars being a disability. You need some decent knowledge of both and the correct tools to be able to do much, and a technical background to troubleshoot. Back when computers were geek toys most people who had them knew how to service them. Now that everybody on the planet has a machine (yea they are that cheap now) you have people who never opened up the case and do not plan on it. I see too many people that think computer repair is easy (it is to me, but I have experience dating back to DOS), but for the non techies it is not.
I certainly don't want to belittle what you've achieved. You've obviously taken it to a higher lever, as have most on this list but I'm not sure that a lot of tools are needed for basic computer work. Regarding cars, a set of wrenches is cheap, you don't need a torque wrench or more fancy stuff to do most things. It's also a bit cultural. Around here most poeple work on their cars and I notice that city folk don't it as much.

Anyway, the gist of what I am gettin at is, where do you draw the line? So you don't want to get oil on you hands, fine, but what about people who can't cook or darn their own socks? Is that OK? I've met people (from Canada) who can't read or write effectively and I've had to help them fill out forms. Is that a disability? My point is that it behoves everyone to give it a good shot before giving up. My personal feeling is that it is wrong to discourage them.

Of course, it's not just about the schools. Many things are learned at home. Around here it looks like automechanics is that way. My kid learn't a lot of computer and other skills from me. I learnt about furniture, and oil painting from my dad. I learn't to cook and sew from my mom. (really!) Still, schools need to fill in the holes, especially regarding the academic aspects. We really shouldn't have people graduating from school who are shy to take a computer apart, read a howto on brake pad replacement, or whatever else is a common task in our society. If you don't know how, you try to learn. School should give you the mental tools to cultivate that attitude. Why they (and our society) are discouraging people, I don't know. I would go so far as to say that schools are not only leaving off a big part of computer education, they are actively discouraging the kids from taking both a technical and an academic interest.
 
Schools have allways been designed to provide companies the type of workers they need, and the fact is companies want button pushers who understand how to use computers and thats all.

Back when electronics were expensive and people wanted them repaired technical people were needed and paid well. Now that it is all cheap junk we don't need techies anymore.

You do need some decent equipment to work on cars these days because it is mostly sensors that have issues and you need a computer interface with the correct software to diagnose it (or just replace a ton of expensive sensors untill the problem stops, kind of like bad computer repair shops I would think).

As far as computer repair, if you do it for more then a hobby you need a multi meter, a ESR meter for capacitors, some knowledge of desoldering, soldering, resister color codes, decent set of screwdrivers with security bits, spare parts, etc. Granted none of that is super expensive but more then most want to invest when they can just buy a new machine cheaper. Also quite a bit of computer issues are just screwed up software and you need to keep current on how to fix that (or just reformat and reinstall which is what most shops do). Some people take it to the next level with logic analyzers , oscilliscopes and other expensive equipment. Surface mount hardware isn't exactly cheap.

I think people would be better served taking some finance courses and seeing why debt is bad for them. Eating better quality food is also more important then worrying about computers. I have known quite a few people who have houses they can barely afford full of electronics they charged and every penny goes to paying for that leaving them little for food! While I enjoy my computer hobby, some of the best times of my life were just interacting with PEOPLE doing simple stuff like talking that didn't cost any money.
 
I think the crucial thing in this debate is as someone stated earlier...where do you draw the line as far as 'minimum acceptable knowledge that most everyone should have'? I have people in my organization, people in the highest ranks, who have called me in dire need when it turns out their ethernet cable has come unplugged. I even had one of my setup techs return in frustration from an emergency run to a remote broadcast location...because it turned out the on-air personality knocked the tuner they were using to monitor things off station. What does this person do in their car if they accidentally knock the radio off station? Heaven forbid. These are examples of things that everyone should really know if they're going to interact with the world around them. To modify our earlier analogy...forget fixing the car - if you're going to drive it, have a license and know the rules of the road. I don't think people should necessarily know how to fix the tuner when the headphone jack contacts come off the circuit board...but they should know how to tune the station in.
No - we can't expect everyone to be at a certain level. I agree with Ole Juul that more is better, the more independent you can be, the better. I was raised on a farm in central Saskatchewan. I learned to do some carpentry (badly), welding, a bit of electrical. I ran our equipment long before I was 'legal' age. We did whatever needed doing, rarely taking it to a professional because it was cheaper if we could do it ourselves. Fortunately we had many of the facilities and room to do so. I hunted, fished, knew how to take care of things if we didn't have power or heat. I can change the alternator or starter on the vehicles I own, and do some other basic servicing. I've been in the city since I graduated from high school, but I still carry at least some of that background and philosophy so perhaps its easier for me to say 'learn to basics'. Again though, there are levels. My chief engineer is an amazing fellow, and he makes me look like a rank apprentice in most anything technical I do. Should eveyone be at his level? No.
It comes down to a way of approaching things. If one can open their mind a little more and say 'big complex things are made up of many small, simpler things' and work your way through it, often you can troubleshoot and solve.
 
If one can open their mind a little more and say 'big complex things are made up of many small, simpler things' and work your way through it, often you can troubleshoot and solve.

Yes, in the end an education system is about giving kids some fundamental knowledge but most of all, the ability and confidence to tackle problems, whatever they are. This means being able to read well, write, be able to undertake basic mathemathics, reason and think critically, I bit of skepticism doesn't go amiss either. Given knowledge is more accessible than even before, if people have the tools to self-learn then they can successfully pick up much of what they need to know as they go through life....computer knowledge included.

Tez
 
yep (sigh), old computers get junked

yep (sigh), old computers get junked

I've been teaching typing to people (find a DOS machine, load Typing Tutor IV, which can still be found for $1-$5), show them the home row and the menus, and let'em go.

The old DOS laptops have gotten scarce. The two closest local computer recyclers told me last month that now they don't even check them for possible reuse if they get one in (any Pentium gets repurposed with Linux and given away).

DOS machines? they just scrap them to the electronic junk disassembly area.

I've been finding these things (one floppy will run DOS and Typing Tutor) for years and giving them to people who never learned to type (mostly adults, many of them immigrants, who are stuck without knowing the keyboard).

Even our local library, which has excellent beginner computer classes, specifically does not teach people how to type!

I'm retiring next month and had started looking around for the old DOS machines to start giving more of these away and try to do it through the library.

And I'm just amazed, they're hard to find. Lots of scrapped and broken ones I can't afford to take a chance on on Ebay of course, but nothing I can be sure will work.

Grumble. I'm getting old, but the computers got old faster.
 
DOS should run on just about any x86 platform, even modern dual-core systems. If you don't know about FreeDOS, by all means check it out--there's some support for USB mass storage as well.
 
Like Chuck says, just about any. To me there is no such thing as a DOS machine. Get a good CD or floppy with all the stuff your favourite system setup and just pick up those P1-P2 machines that people will pay to get rid of. If you're really serious (and it sounds like you are) then I will put together a disk with an install routine and easy access to typing and editing utilities that you can copy and use. Use as is, or type "install" to make hdd bootable. PM or e-mail me if you want.

Actually I already have one to go which has completely integrated help files and is a "complete OS". I just need to swap out the MS-DOS 6.22 command.com etc for a free version. :)
 
Even though this thread is a year old, I'll bite:

#1 Finding large numbers of identical vintage computers.

#2 Maintenance: Parts. Repairs. Knowledgeable staff.

#3 Warranty. When (when, not if) hardware fails, where to send for replacement / refund?

#4 Software. Locating, purchasing, and maintaining vintage software that's similar/identical to what students and teachers have access to at home, that they'll encounter once they leave school, that is easy to use, and productive. Or, alternatively, but even more difficult, finding new software titles that will run on vintage hardware.

#5 Security. Try to find a commercial modern firewall - virus program to run on DOS.

#6 Networking - Internet. Try to get a bunch of PII or older machines connected to a modern server, browsing the internet, and networked together...

#7 Incompatibility with modern appliances and media. White boards, printers, scanners, cameras, calculators, overhead projectors, flash drives, DVDs, etc.

#8 Cost. Factor in all of the above, and it's cheaper to buy and brand new low-end Dells and throw them away every three years.
 
Even though this thread is a year old, I'll bite:

#1 Finding large numbers of identical vintage computers.
#2 Maintenance: Parts. Repairs. Knowledgeable staff.
#3 Warranty. When (when, not if) hardware fails, where to send for replacement / refund?
Identical computers??? If you are talking about macs, amigas, and vaxes, fine. But most P1-2-3 machines are almost identical for practical purposes. Maintenance and warranty? It is only the insurance of valuable data which poses problems to a low-end tech. I honestly don't think that general maintenance is difficult or expensive. Yes, many administrators think so and that is a philosophical flaw.
#4 Software. Locating, purchasing, and maintaining vintage software that's similar/identical to what students and teachers have access to at home, that they'll encounter once they leave school, that is easy to use, and productive. Or, alternatively, but even more difficult, finding new software titles that will run on vintage hardware.
They don't need what they have at home other than for document compatibility. Text files and OOo are completely portable. They don't need new software titles. That is a myth that many teachers, administrators, and salesmen suffer from. Some schools have adopted the use of computers as baby sitters, like TV - that is not what we are talking about in this thread. :)
#5 Security. Try to find a commercial modern firewall - virus program to run on DOS.
DOS is an excellent teaching platform for computer use and some other things like typing (re: recent post) and yes, some old viruses are still around. Howver, should DOS be of intrest, a new DOS image can be installed while you wait. But other OSs don't suffer from viruses - except MS-Windows which is not really suitable for educational purposes and certainly not something which a school should be indulging in because of the terms of service which are not compatible with a public institution.
#6 Networking - Internet. Try to get a bunch of PII or older machines connected to a modern server, browsing the internet, and networked together...
Why is that difficult? Yes, you're not going to browse the net with DOS, but FreeBSD is a state of the art OS and works like a charm on old kit. It also runs circles around most other OSs when it comes to networking. And I really have to emphasise that it requires very little resources and is indeed fast and functional running modern browsers on an old machine. I have one set up beside me that is quite snappy. It should also be noted that FreeBSD will run Linus programs as well as the 20,000 ones that are written for it.
#7 Incompatibility with modern appliances and media. White boards, printers, scanners, cameras, calculators, overhead projectors, flash drives, DVDs, etc.
FreeBSD is just fine for many of those things and has appropriate licensing. However, I will agree that MS-Windows is much better than anything else when it comes to compatibility with printers, scanners, and some other things. Still, are you familiar with sane? That takes care of most scanners quite nicely. Printing is also very functional for HP printers in *nix OSs these days. Cameras? any OS works because it's just mounted as a file system. DVDs? gimme a break. Flash drives? are you kidding?????

Yes, there are always some compatibility issues in an integrated system - regardless of OS. I don't think, however, that schools need to be a fashion house of digital toys. The early part of this thread covers the importance of teaching computers. According to some CS experts, that can better be done on old kit.
#8 Cost. Factor in all of the above, and it's cheaper to buy and brand new low-end Dells and throw them away every three years.
The reason they throw them away is they want sexy equipment to advertise to parents who are not often knowledgeable about the real need of educators and students. It's a political choice. If a system was good enough 3 years ago, it is good enough now. The earlier part of this thread covers that aspect quite nicely. :)
 
I've seen that some language classes in my school run DOS programs on XP, but they still have the normal Dells. It's weird, every single desktop computer is the exact same model Dell. Same goes for the laptops.
 
Just my two cents...

Just my two cents...

I work in the PC Support field at BMW Manufacturing. I read this whole thread through, and it brought up many, many good points - as well as brought back memories. :rolleyes:

Anyway. When I was growing up, computers started coming into the classrooms when I was in 6th grade - about 1981. At that time, we used DEC VT-100 terminals (plus one non-video, printer-only terminal) linked to an unknown server (was never told, couldn't find out). They taught BASIC on it.

By 9th grade, the computers consisted of Apple II's, C-64's and Tandy 1000 SX's. At that time, I wrote a fully functional database on the C-64 (even though it had room for maybe 5 or so entries) but it worked. Since then, I wrote games for the TI-99/4A (Checkers, Yahtzee, etc) and other computers.

Sad to say, by the time I was 18, I quit programming, and focused on hardware. I still know how to do it, but I never went further with it. Career choice, I suppose. But the knowledge I got from those days is what fueled my interest that still continues now. (I have a Commodore emulator I still use regularly - WinVICe.)

I brought up all that to say this:

The knowledge, interest, fascination, and planning I have now is a direct result of the knowledge obtained learning in school curriculum at that time. They not only taught me how to use them, but they taught ABOUT them as well. My reasons for collecting older systems isn't for the vintage value, nor the prestige of having a lot of toys. It's only for the reason that I know more about those - and how to put them to good use - than I do these modern resource-hogs. I have only one machine that I consider modern (not counting laptops) and even that's a couple generations behind.

Now, there was one contract I took that was in the Greenville County (SC) school system - computer related, of course. I was appalled at the lack of teaching that went on in the computer area. Thoroughly disgusted. You walk up to most high-schoolers, and ask them what OS they're using, you'll get a variation of blank stares or something stupid like "My OS is a Dell." (True fact!) :eek:nfire:

My point is that perhaps schools would better serve their students by including various old computers for study than setting them up for miserable failure by giving them the point-and-click usage education. We all know how quickly things change, and if someone's taught Adobe Photoshop in school now, they'll wind up lost 4 years down the road when everything has changed.

I know I was lost. That's why I mostly dropped programming. I still tinker and dabble, but nothing much beyond that. Until I continue building my collection, and get the ones still missing.

...Just my two cents.

And one more thing about my dropping programming: the proliferation of Visual BASIC at the time. Let's look at that. Visual BASIC. There isn't a damn thing BASIC about it. I tried "translating" one program I wrote back then into VB. Did it work? Hah! No. So I gave it up.
 
Last edited:
It's weird, every single desktop computer is the exact same model Dell. Same goes for the laptops.

They do that because (1) all the machines come with the software preinstalled, (2) they get bulk discounts, and (3) they can use the same software image to re-stamp the drives should a machine fail or become corrupted. Almost all companies do that. Even BMW.
 
They do that because (1) all the machines come with the software preinstalled, (2) they get bulk discounts, and (3) they can use the same software image to re-stamp the drives should a machine fail or become corrupted. Almost all companies do that. Even BMW.

(4) The IT department doesn't need as many employees anymore. The much over used phrase "more with less"(employees). I guarantee, a number of IT people lost their job when they went to "everybody has identical PCs".
 
Back
Top