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Adding second RD54 to RQDX3 on RSX11M plus V3 in BA23

P

PG31

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Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
506
Location
Sefton, Meresyside, England
Hi,
I've aquired a second RD54 for my second system. I checked the links and terminator are installed correctly. It doesn't boot, this is possibly because it has no o/s on it. I want to test it by adding it into my working 11/73 and copying the DU0 with RSX onto it (DU1?). If I do a DEV it isn't configured, so I can't do a BAD on it. Is BRU the way to go? Any sugestions or ideas are appreciated as always.

I'm still trying to get hold of a DLV11 if anybody in the UK has one for sale? (To backup my original RD54 to my PC using TU58 emulator etc)

Thanks again.
 
You've raised a several different issues.

1) BRU is the best way to copy one system drive to another under your version of RSX.

2) I'm unclear which method you're attempting to create a backup. [ a couple were suggested ] Could you elaborate please?
I'd still like to help you work this out. It should be possible to do without a DLV, via the console terminal or any other
serial port.

3) Adding another DU: device should be fairly simple in a BA23 with no "external" drives.
Before I give you drive select settings, I need to know:

  • The type of RQDX control [assume RQDX3?]
  • how many drives are on your RQDX control
  • The type of each drive [including floppies]
  • Do you have an RQDX-E in the system. [if not - the RQDX control will connect directly to the drive bay board in the front of the BA23]

There are only 2 physical positions in the BA23's drive bay for 5.25" drives. If you intend on having 2 RD54s plus Floppies, you'll need to remote the floppies. The simplest way is to extend the floppy drive cables [34-pin ribbon and 4-pin power] and place the floppy drives external to the BA23, but otherwise leave them electrically as if they were still in the BA23, connected via the internal distribution panel.

An important question - Did you create a user account to be able to login to this system? [or are you terminating startup.cmd before it can finish?] Startup.cmd must complete in order for all devices in the system to be "online".
 
Thanks,

1) I'll look into BRU then.

2) AS I can't backup the entire disk image using the TU58 method I tried the below method, (using the console terminal)

>INS $DMP
>DMO ddu:/DEV/LOCK=V
>MOU ddu:/FOR
>DMP TI:=ddu:/WD/BL:0
I don't get anything captured in Powerterm, I'll try a diferent emulator when I get a chance.

3) RQDX3, only one RD54, I removed the TK50 to put in the second RD54. When I've backed up or copied the 1st RD54 I intend to put the second RD54 in my 11/53+ that currently doesn't have a drive. I don't have an RQDX-E so both drives will sit in the BA23 "temporarily" and be connected to the bulkhead cables.

I've also created a user and logon to RSX using this, it completes ok. Part of the startup script asks if I would like to start up networking, I usually reply "N" as I don't have the DELQA connected to anything at present.

Thanks.
 
1) BRU - definitely.
2) immediately after the DMP TI:=DU0: /WD /BL:0 [you were suppose to substitute the device DU0: for the ddu: in those commands - maybe I wasn't clear] you should get a stream of characters to the terminal. This is the stream to capture. [it's ok if the command echo is captured too]

If that didn't happen, then the command was somehow incorrect. Does any of that help?

3) I'll go downstairs later this evening to let you know the drive selects for that configuation. From memory - I think DU0:=SEL3 and DU1:=SEL4 but don't hold me to it till I confirm. [things are different with the RQDXE and I'm not sure what I'm recalling here] If everything is correct, the DEV command will show all drives online after the startup completes. You might have a look at the drive that's currently DU0: and see if it is set to SEL3.

Please do not just jumper it and try it. There's a worry that it could wipe out both drives. Let me check the docs to be sure.

4) It sounds like that system is one I definitely would like to save and have to run here.

I'll post again in a few hours.

UPDATE:
I've checked the manual and the posted information is now correct. FYI - RX50s are configured as SEL1 & SEL2 from the factory leaving SEL3 and SEL4 for other drives in the same system.
 
Last edited:
I've tried setting the new drive as SEL4 and the original is still at SEL3, now the system doesn't boot. Should they both be SEL3 as they are both connected to different cables and not a daisy chain cable?
 
Ok... we have an understanding barrier.

These are the literal strings...[no substitutions]
Code: 
>ins $dmp        
>dmo [B]DU0:[/B]/dev/lock=v    
>mou [B]DU0:[/B]/for       
>dmp ti:=[B]DU0:[/B]/wd/bl:0



Now for the SEL issue...

I've tried setting the new drive as SEL4 and the original is still at SEL3, now the system doesn't boot. Should they both be SEL3 as they are both connected to different cables and not a daisy chain cable?
Click to expand...
Well, that concerns me. Let's not try that again until I have an explanation.

There are notes in the BA23 manuals that 2 full-height hard drives exceeds the power supply's capacity. I've done it temporarily to do just what you're trying to do now.

Some tests you could try...
  • Try setting your new RD54 to SEL3 and installing it as the only drive in the system [in the UNIT 0 slot]. If there's no OS on the drive, it won't boot but it should behave correctly otherwise.
  • Another thing to try is take the Working RD54 and install it as UNIT 1 in the distribution pannel. [again - as the only drive in the system UNIT 0 empty] According to these manuals, if this drive is set to SEL3, it should still boot as DU0:

A new question: How many pushbuttons are on the BA23 control panel? 4? 6? - How are they labled?

Please do not attempt 2 drives at once again until I can re-check my documentation.
 
Last edited:
I get the following,
>ins $dmp
INS -- Task name already in use
>dmo DU0:/dev/lock=v
DMO -- Checkpoint file still active DU0:
>mou DU0:/for
MOU - parameter conflict with already mounted volume

I've connected my original RD54 to drive 1's cables and the system still boots ok, tahe from >DEV
VT1: Loaded
RD0: Loaded
DU0: Public Mounted Loaded Label=RSX11MPBL24 Type=RD54
Cached
 
Ok... we're just about there.

Boot the system disk to be backed up and when it prompts for the Time And Date hit ^Z [that's Control-Z]
Now issue your commands....

Code: 
>ins $dmp        
>dmo [B]DU0:[/B]/dev/lock=v    
>mou [B]DU0:[/B]/for       
>dmp ti:=[B]DU0:[/B]/wd/bl:0

You'll see the output that needs capturing after that last command line.
Code: 
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000         0180
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000         0190
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000         01A0
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000         01B0
0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000         01C0
4250 4D31 3158 5352 0000 0000 0000 0000         01D0
2020 205D 3130 302C 3130 305B 0037 384C         01E0
43A6 0000 2020 4131 3145 4C49 4643 4544         01F0

To interrupt the output hit: ^C and enter "ABO DMP"
Code: 
Dump of DU0:
                 Logical block 0,000002 - Size 512. bytes


5453 5953 4D45 5453 5953 3130 3031 3030         0000
MCR>abo dmp
4D45 5453 5953 2020 2020 2020 2020 4D45         0
17:34:26  Task "DMPT0 " terminated
          Aborted via directive or CLI
>
>
Now begin capturing the terminal output and retype the DMP command.
Code: 
>dmp ti:=[B]DU0:[/B]/wd/bl:0
Wait till the DMP finishes and close the capture.

I think you've got it this time.
 
Need to know the console serial port speed to make an estimate... for an RD54 it could be several days.
 
38400, due you recomend a specific terminal emulator. I'm using an "internal one" and the file is saved as .cap. I've opened the .cap as .txt, sample below.


N00001dN00001mN00001pN00001 N00001tN00001:N00001=N00001DN00001UN000010N00001:N00001N00001N00001N00001N00001N00001N00001N00001tN00001iN00001:N00001=N00001DN00001UN000010N00001:N00001/N00001wN00001dN00001/N00001bN00001lN00001:N000010N00001
N00008
DMP --N00008 CommandN00008 syntax N00008error
TN00005I:

N00003
>N00001dN00001mN00001pN00001 N00001tN00001iN00001:N00001=N00001DN00001UN000010N00001:N00001/N00001wN00001dN00001/N00001bN00001lN00001:N000010N00001
N00008





N00008Dump of N00004DU0:N00008
LogN00041ical block 0,000000 - Size 512. bytes

N00008
95DF 0N00008100 7321N00008 5B10 13N00008E7 0001 N000080104 00BN000070 0000N00008
0600 1N000085C4 1045N00008 0701 00N0000801 15C5 N00008FFFE 00EN000070 0010N00008
15C6 1N00008004 0A02N00008 7EC2 14N0000854 0A01 N000080100 15CN000073 0020N00008
17C2 FN00008468 15C5N00031 0202 0BC5 0636 15C7 0800 0030N00008
0302 0N00016002 0BF5 00C8 15N00008C4 0006 N0000817C3 000N000074 0040N00008
0004 0N00008A35 0002N00008 FD00 15N00008F5 7F06 N0000800EC 007N000077 0050N00008
11C0 0N0000834C 0010N00008 0001 25N00008F5 0010 N000080001 15FN000075 0060N00008
0341 8N00008BC8 FF00N00031 45C1 0016 1D41 0066 65C0 0070N00008
25C1 0N0000830C 0040N00008 25C1 01N00008FA 2410 N000080302 A20N000071 0080N00008
0A01 0N00008A02 001CN00008 10B5 72N0000888 0BD0 N000080309 004N000071 0090N00008
0039 9N000085CD 0006N00031 10B5 50C2 00C2 7281 D801 00A0N00008
03F8 8N00008080 35CDN00008 02FD 0AN00008C4 5996 N000080008 15CN000074 00B0N00008
55F5 4N00039009 15CD 031C 0022 0020 35F5 803A 00C0N00008
1612 0N000391A2 1611 01A2 1610 01EB 001A 0200 00D0N00008
2017 0N000081B2 1F16N00008 00A0 20N0000815 00A0 N000082014 01AN000072 00E0N00008
0000 0N00016000 0041 0000 00N0000840 0640 N000083222 026N000070 00F0N00008
0A02 0N00008010 10B5N00008 0042 72N0000897 01FE N000080000 000N000070 0100N00008
0100 3N000085F5 0006N00008 10B5 50N00008C2 00C2 N000080016 729N000077 0110N00008
35CD 0N00008011 15CDN00008 0002 04N0000800 55F7 N000080303 000N00007A 0120N00008
0A07 FN00008FF8 45C4N00008 0008 1DN0000844 81E6 N0000803FD 808N000070 0130N00008
8000 0N00008000 0000N00008 010B 00N0000802 10F7 N000080008 10BN000077 0140N00008
0000 0N00008621 0458N00008 0009 04N0000858 0001 N000080000 045N000078 0150N00008
0BCD 1N000080C4 FFE6N00031 65C3 11C3 1095 0800 15C2 0160N00008
0334 1N000084C1 80F9N00008 0CC2 14N00008CD 03FC N00008308D 813N000079 0170N00008
FD7E 0N00039030 15F1 1081 02FD 0BC1 0A21 1042 0180N00008
FD86 9N00039031 FD82 0001 15F1 FD80 0001 15F1 0190N00008
FF9A 1N00039DF1 0206 0BCB FD8F 94F1 FD8A 94F1 01A0N00008
15D2 1N00039312 020E 15D2 FDA0 FF96 1DF1 FD9E 01B0N00008
0ACE 5N00008996 0014N00008 15E6 FFN00008FE 0BF5 N00008130A 01DN00007A 01C0N00008
8BF1 8N000081F5 FFFCN00008 0BF2 02N0000806 0BCD N000080BD6 02FN00007D 01D0N00008
0A07 0N00008A07 1004N00008 0A25 01N00008BC 0A25 N0000803CC FDCN000070 01E0N00008
0A07 0N00008A07 0A07N00008 0A07 0AN0000807 0A07 N000080A07 0A0N000077 01F0N00008
 
Back to your other issue...

PG31 said:
I've tried setting the new drive as SEL4 and the original is still at SEL3, now the system doesn't boot. Should they both be SEL3 as they are both connected to different cables and not a daisy chain cable?
Click to expand...

To prove this doesn't matter and that SEL3=DU0: no matter which "port" it's connected to...
PG31 said:
... I've connected my original RD54 to drive 1's cables and the system still boots ok, tahe from >DEV
VT1: Loaded
RD0: Loaded
DU0: Public Mounted Loaded Label=RSX11MPBL24 Type=RD54
Cached
Click to expand...



You could try SEL1 or SEL2, but the new drive really should work as SEL4. I'm trying to think what else could be wrong to prevent booting.

This takes me to your 4 button panel... so yours reads:
  • upper left - "Fixed disk 0 Write protect"
  • lower left = "Ready"
  • upper Right - "Halt"
  • lower right - "Restart"
  • has "DC OK" and "Run" lights?
If this is the correct panel, please tell me what position W2 is in on that panel.
BA23f-4button_fp.jpg



One other test you could perform:

Please tell me what happens when your working disk is installed in UNIT 0 slot configured as SEL4. [no other drive present]

* Does it boot as DU1?
* Does it boot at all?
​


Finally - Does anyone know where we can download an RD54 manual [EK-LEP07-OM-001]? The link on VT100.net is no longer valid.
 
my panel is four button but doesn't match your diagram, it has no jumper 1, 2, or 3. it has one 4 pin jumper were jumper 3 is on your diagram, no links are present. sw1, and sw2 are off. On my other BA23 the panel is 6 button and has sw1 off, sw2 on. W2 is linked to the two top pins and w3 is linked to the two bottom pins, w1 appears to to link the two top pins.
 
I've swapped the SEL link to SEL4 on the original RD54 and connected it to the drive one cables and it does boot. When I do a DEV in RSX it shows as DU0: shouldn't it be DU1 ?
I've left the SEL link at SEL4 and connected the RD54 to drive zero cables and the system boots.When I do a DEV in RSX it still shows as DU0.
 
PG31 said:
38400, due you recomend a specific terminal emulator. I'm using an "internal one" and the file is saved as .cap. I've opened the .cap as .txt, sample below.


N00001dN00001mN00001pN00001 N00001tN00001:N00001=N00001DN00001UN000010N00001:N00001N00001N00001N00001N00001N00001N00001N00001tN00001iN00001:N00001=N00001DN00001UN000010N00001:N00001/N00001wN00001dN00001/N00001bN00001lN00001:N000010N00001
N00008
DMP --N00008 CommandN00008 syntax N00008error
TN00005I:

N00003
>N00001dN00001mN00001pN00001 N00001tN00001iN00001:N00001=N00001DN00001UN000010N00001:N00001/N00001wN00001dN00001/N00001bN00001lN00001:N000010N00001
N00008





N00008Dump of N00004DU0:N00008
LogN00041ical block 0,000000 - Size 512. bytes

N00008
95DF 0N00008100 7321N00008 5B10 13N00008E7 0001 N000080104 00BN000070 0000N00008
0600 1N000085C4 1045N00008 0701 00N0000801 15C5 N00008FFFE 00EN000070 0010N00008
15C6 1N00008004 0A02N00008 7EC2 14N0000854 0A01 N000080100 15CN000073 0020N00008
17C2 FN00008468 15C5N00031 0202 0BC5 0636 15C7 0800 0030N00008
0302 0N00016002 0BF5 00C8 15N00008C4 0006 N0000817C3 000N000074 0040N00008
0004 0N00008A35 0002N00008 FD00 15N00008F5 7F06 N0000800EC 007N000077 0050N00008
11C0 0N0000834C 0010N00008 0001 25N00008F5 0010 N000080001 15FN000075 0060N00008
0341 8N00008BC8 FF00N00031 45C1 0016 1D41 0066 65C0 0070N00008
25C1 0N0000830C 0040N00008 25C1 01N00008FA 2410 N000080302 A20N000071 0080N00008
0A01 0N00008A02 001CN00008 10B5 72N0000888 0BD0 N000080309 004N000071 0090N00008
0039 9N000085CD 0006N00031 10B5 50C2 00C2 7281 D801 00A0N00008
03F8 8N00008080 35CDN00008 02FD 0AN00008C4 5996 N000080008 15CN000074 00B0N00008
55F5 4N00039009 15CD 031C 0022 0020 35F5 803A 00C0N00008
1612 0N000391A2 1611 01A2 1610 01EB 001A 0200 00D0N00008
Click to expand...
That's not the output I expected.


It should look more like this:
Code: 
Dump of DU0:
                 Logical block 0,000002 - Size 512. bytes


5453 5953 4D45 5453 5953 3130 3031 3030         0000
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000         0180
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000         0190
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000         01A0
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000         01B0
0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000         01C0
4250 4D31 3158 5352 0000 0000 0000 0000         01D0
2020 205D 3130 302C 3130 305B 0037 384C         01E0
43A6 0000 2020 4131 3145 4C49 4643 4544         01F0
Perhaps you had massive overruns at 38400? You must have entered the full DMP command correctly because I see elements of correctness in the capture output.

I don't think I'd run at 38400... maybe 19200 or even 9600. You'll need to slow down until the capture contents looks like the screen output you saw.

Usually, I use Windows Hyperterminal to do small captures.
Yours, coming from a 159MB RD54 will be well over 320MB in size.

At a minimum, this would take 92hrs @ 9600 bps. Scale your time accordingly.

It might be best to capture a few minutes worth and send them to me as a check, before investing that much time.
 
PG31 said:
my panel is four button but doesn't match your diagram, it has no jumper 1, 2, or 3. it has one 4 pin jumper were jumper 3 is on your diagram, no links are present. sw1, and sw2 are off. On my other BA23 the panel is 6 button and has sw1 off, sw2 on. W2 is linked to the two top pins and w3 is linked to the two bottom pins, w1 appears to to link the two top pins.
Click to expand...
Sounds like we should be experimenting with the 6-button.

PG31 said:
I've swapped the SEL link to SEL4 on the original RD54 and connected it to the drive one cables and it does boot. When I do a DEV in RSX it shows as DU0: shouldn't it be DU1 ?
I've left the SEL link at SEL4 and connected the RD54 to drive zero cables and the system boots.When I do a DEV in RSX it still shows as DU0.
Click to expand...
Ok, no - this proves it works and that the 4-Button front panel permits it. The logical drive numbering can get a bit confusing on these systems - but the way you said - is how it's supposed to work.

PG31 said:
I've also tried with and without the terminating resistor pack. It is of course possible that the second RD54 is faulty??
Click to expand...
Of course, it could be faulty.
  • Can you hear it spin up?
  • When it's alone in the chassis - does it come up "Ready" on the Panel?
  • Have you tried booting it alone set as DS3?

I wish we had the manual for that drive.

Try this... physically examine the two drives side-by-side. If there are differences in settings [or manufacturers] post them here. Maybe we can figure it out. I'm doing this from memory on my side [20 years ago] but I think there were jumpers on the drive board that needed to be set "for DEC". Maybe we can spot them.

Be sure to mark the "Working " drive so it doesn't get confused with the other.

Do you have any way to boot XXDP? It may be that we have to test and format this drive before it can be used - but if it works, I'd still expect the system to be able to boot from the other unit and ignore it.

Maybe you could post detailed pics and I could get into the act?
 
This is the URL that I used to check the RD54 drive links etc. http://gunkies.org/wiki/RD54

My original RD54 is an RD54-A and my new one is RD54-EA, both are Maxtor XT-2190 series 2. When I first received the new RD54 I checked all the links and they were the same. I removed my original RD54 from the BA23 and installed the new RD54 the drive ready light comes on but after some time the system comes back with media not mounted on DU0(or something similar). Unfortunateley I don't have xxdp to format or test the drive. I was hoping not to format it in case it had an o/s already on it.
 
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