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Feeling lucky, is the 3c509B compatible with 8088 using NE1000 drivers?

nestor said:
Good news! I managed to replace all the 286 specific asm instructions with generic 8086 asm instructions and now the packet driver seems to work in a 8088 based XT machine.
Please test it, you will find the files attached to this post.
Click to expand...

Good work!

I've looked at the Cyrnwr packet drivers before and they are well structured. What assembler did you use - an older copy of MASM?

One thing to keep in mind is that although it worked for this card, getting a 16 bit card working in an 8 bit bus is not as easy as fixing instructions. If the card wants 16 bit I/O and can't be told to use just 8, nothing is going to work.


Mike
 
mbbrutman said:
Good work!

I've looked at the Cyrnwr packet drivers before and they are well structured. What assembler did you use - an older copy of MASM?

One thing to keep in mind is that although it worked for this card, getting a 16 bit card working in an 8 bit bus is not as easy as fixing instructions. If the card wants 16 bit I/O and can't be told to use just 8, nothing is going to work.


Mike
Click to expand...

I just tried the packetdriver with my card and a D-link DI-514 router using a lan port but without any wan connected.... I loaded trumpet tcpdrv.exe ip=192.168.0.2 netmask=255.255.255.0 gateway=192.168.0.255???
Then i used trumpet ping utility at the web config adress 192.168.0.1 that i read webconfig use, the router does not answer and maybe it should not or?

I can see port led flash though like something indeed coming thru to router, but maybe i do this wrong way and must have a web browser to test? this out
 
mbbrutman said:
What assembler did you use - an older copy of MASM?

One thing to keep in mind is that although it worked for this card, getting a 16 bit card working in an 8 bit bus is not as easy as fixing instructions. If the card wants 16 bit I/O and can't be told to use just 8, nothing is going to work.
Click to expand...

I used TASM 4.0. I have 4 3Com Etherlink III (two 3c509 and two 3c509B). The older revisions (without B) don't work in a 8 bit slot, but the newer do.

JT64 said:
I just tried the packetdriver with my card and a D-link DI-514 router using a lan port but without any wan connected.... I loaded trumpet tcpdrv.exe ip=192.168.0.2 netmask=255.255.255.0 gateway=192.168.0.255???
Then i used trumpet ping utility at the web config adress 192.168.0.1 that i read webconfig use, the router does not answer and maybe it should not or?

I can see port led flash though like something indeed coming thru to router, but maybe i do this wrong way and must have a web browser to test? this out
Click to expand...

It should work with that configuration. I tested mine with IRCjr from Mike.
 
Make sure that you do not have Trumpet loaded while you are trying to run any of the mTCP applications. Trumpet and mTCP (or WATTCP applications) can not share the same packet driver at the same time.
 
Ah, good point made about the B suffix is required to get it to work. Somewhere I've got an Etherlink III, I just need to see if it is the right version and then I can try as well on my XT clone that however already has a good working NIC. It can be interesting to compare network throughput between two different cards, one with manufacturer's original packet driver and one with an aftermarket adapted driver.
 
nestor said:
Good news! I managed to replace all the 286 specific asm instructions with generic 8086 asm instructions and now the packet driver seems to work in a 8088 based XT machine.
Please test it, you will find the files attached to this post.
Click to expand...

Hi! Just wanted to share my success with this modified driver.

I'm using a 3C509B-TPO in a Tandy 1000RL. I had to put the card in an AT machine first, to disable PnP and set an XT-friendly IRQ with 3C5X9CFG, but after that it worked a treat.

i7QSTl.jpg

BNshNl.jpg


Thanks for making the modification, this helps me out a lot! :)
 
Okay first off: Great job. This will help some people with the card as the whole driver not running on an 8088 has been a big issue. I don't want to detract from that but I still don't understand why people are beating their head against the wall w/ a 3c509b when a 3c503TP will work just fine and is designed for 8bit machines? Aside from the fact that everybody seems to have a few 3c509s hanging around is there some other reason to avoid the 3c503?
 
Perhaps due to the fact you just mentioned; a 3C509B might be found at any decent flea market and surely a handful on eBay every month, while a 3C503 might appear on eBay once in a quarter, and often from a seller who knows it is gold and priced thereafter. If there was a good supply of cheap 8-bit compatible NICs, no matter which brand, nobody would really have to spend time to modify an existing driver.

Personally, I was almost certain I got a 509B somewhere to test the driver, but despite looking inside every old PC as well as loose cards in my drawers, I haven't found it yet. Not that I need it, as I already got my 8-bit NIC setup.
 
Shadow Lord said:
Aside from the fact that everybody seems to have a few 3c509s hanging around is there some other reason to avoid the 3c503?
Click to expand...

That pretty much hits the nail on the head. I have a shoebox full of 3C509 and 3C509B cards in TPO and Combo forms, and a selection of NE2000 compatibles, but nothing that suited XTs... Until now! :)
 
That is the reason why I modified this packet driver, I have some spare 3c509B cards and as the packet driver source code was available, the work was not too complicated.
 
SquallStrife said:
That pretty much hits the nail on the head. I have a shoebox full of 3C509 and 3C509B cards in TPO and Combo forms, and a selection of NE2000 compatibles, but nothing that suited XTs... Until now! :)
Click to expand...

Yes, but thats like saying I have a box of PCI video cards around so lets make it work on the XT. Not an exact analogy but you get the idea. I don't know what you guys consider "gold" but I got a bunch of 3c503s a few months back as NOS for around $18/each shipped. Not exactly cheap but then I am not relying on hacked drivers to make them work.
 
Shadow Lord said:
Yes, but thats like saying I have a box of PCI video cards around so lets make it work on the XT. Not an exact analogy but you get the idea. I don't know what you guys consider "gold" but I got a bunch of 3c503s a few months back as NOS for around $18/each shipped. Not exactly cheap but then I am not relying on hacked drivers to make them work.
Click to expand...


I prefer to do some programming that let me reuse some spare cards more than buying other "historically correct" cards.
 
nestor said:
I prefer to do some programming that let me reuse some spare cards more than buying other "historically correct" cards.
Click to expand...

And more power to you. I prefer to buy the right tool for the right job. Not everything can be fixed with a hammer ;) Sometime the right tool is historically correct and sometime it is not. But it doesn't have to be forced to made to work for your needs.
 
Well, to me it sounds like $18 including shipping was a bit of a bargain. At this moment of writing, the least expensive 3C503 I can find on eBay is $29.95 plus shipping. Perhaps if you feel you have a surplus, you can offer some to other people looking for an XT compatible network card? Oh well, now that we got the hacked 3C509B driver it might not be as pressing matter and lucrative business anymore.

Is the issue whether a number of PC XT's and clones will be fitted with hardware not intended for those? In that case, is the XT-IDE project also out of scope, and people should really stick to using various MFM/RLL drives as long as they last?
 
carlsson said:
Well, to me it sounds like $18 including shipping was a bit of a bargain. At this moment of writing, the least expensive 3C503 I can find on eBay is $29.95 plus shipping. Perhaps if you feel you have a surplus, you can offer some to other people looking for an XT compatible network card? Oh well, now that we got the hacked 3C509B driver it might not be as pressing matter and lucrative business anymore.

Is the issue whether a number of PC XT's and clones will be fitted with hardware not intended for those? In that case, is the XT-IDE project also out of scope, and people should really stick to using various MFM/RLL drives as long as they last?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I only bought enough for my needs. The key thing is that I did not buy from eBay. I did a Google search and found an online store that had a stock of them. I'll tell you though: I was worried about ordering from them. You never know when you are going to hit a "Code Micro" scam - where everything is in stock and they charge your CC and suddenly its back ordered w/ no refund in sight.

Again for me historic accuracy, while important, is secondary. It is more about getting it to work w/ minimal fuss. The XT-IDE is designed to work on an XT. So it is the right tool for getting an IDE HDD to work on an XT. The 3c509B issue to me is like saying there are tons of cheap generic 16 bit IDE controllers lets see how we can force one to work in an XT. As an exercise in programming/HW modding it maybe cool, but as a guy who just wants to turn on his XT and have it work it is way too much headache. I rather pay more get the right tool (in this case the XT-IDE) and know it will work every time I flip that big red switch.

Just my $0.02 others may disagree specially those with far more technical SW/HW knowledge then myself.
 
Shadow Lord said:
Again for me historic accuracy, while important, is secondary. It is more about getting it to work w/ minimal fuss. [...] As an exercise in programming/HW modding it maybe cool, but as a guy who just wants to turn on his XT and have it work it is way too much headache.
Click to expand...

Now that the programming part has been done, there is no more headache. Why complain then? This can't be called modding: the hardware is kept intact and the software modification is compatible with all x86 computers (in fact the modified packet driver is more compatible than it was originally)
 
Well I think it's an awesome option for those that have a 3C509B lying around and want to give it a whirl. For me an 8bit network card could cost near on $100 after postage is taken in to consideration (unless I found old stock in China or something). Not a drama for me, because I don't like networking on anything less than a 386 anywho.

I'm not sure on availability in the US but the most common ISA card I find here is the D-Link DE220 series. I must have around ten of them. They're 16 bit Plug'n Play, configuration tool is easy to find, there is drivers for everything from OS/2 LanMan to Windows 2000, and the manual states IBM PC and PC XT compatibility. I haven't tried them in an XT, but I do use them in the 8bit slot on my Toshiba portables (386).
 
If I remember correctly Realtek RTL8019AS based cards will work just fine in 8-bit slots using NE2000 drivers.
These cards were very popular in 90's (at least in my area), and it looks like there are still some for sale at eBay for $20 or so.
 
For that matter, 3Com 3C509B has worked in a 8-bit slot already from day 1, just that you needed a 286 processor in order to use the packet driver. Indeed only a few PC compatibles have that kind of configuration. So what was done was to rewrite the packet driver using 8088 compatible instructions, using the network card in the 8-bit mode that 3Com partially designed it to be used for.
 
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