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Router discussion

Ole Juul

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,982
Location
Coalmont, BC, Canada
We all use "modern" routers, even for our vintage equipment, so I thought I'd ask a few questions to see what kind of experience others have with them.

I've got some Linksys WRT64G (and L) routers which work just fine. I've got Tomato running on them. Yes, I know Tomato is slower than the stock firmware but I need what it does, and if that's a problem then I need a faster router. I'm thinking of trying a Netgear WNR3500L since it has lots of memory and can take a more sophisticated version of Tomato (as well as dd-wrt), and has a much faster processor. (thinking about this one)

The reason I'm thinking about a faster processor, is that sometimes when there are several things going through the router at once, there is a short lag when I make an additional request. This is particularly noticeable when there is internet radio playing and it stops for a second. I know that browsing normally grabs priority for a second or two so as to be more snappy. Of course I could also adjust the QOS, but here's the question:

Is the "overload" due to my router being saturated, or is it my 1.5Mbps internet connection?

PS: I'm also interested in comments about the WNR3500L.
 
I'm having a hard time believing that any router is getting overwhelmed by a 1.5Mb/sec DSL connection. Routing packets is not that hard .. my old 486 did it comfortably.

Why do you think the router is the problem? Are the status pages from the http server telling you that you are low on memory?

Your DSL connection is more likely the problem. Especially if it is marginal and retrying the transmissions. You won't even be able to detect that because it happens at the link layer, not the IP layer.


Mike
 
Thanks for the response Mike.

I'm having a hard time believing that any router is getting overwhelmed by a 1.5Mb/sec DSL connection. Routing packets is not that hard .. my old 486 did it comfortably.

That's a good point and great info. I had a Pentium pro that I was using for the same some years back, and I didn't notice any problem. However, I wasn't as demanding then.

Why do you think the router is the problem? Are the status pages from the http server telling you that you are low on memory?

I don't know where to find those "status pages" - I get no messages. All I get is a blank spot in received packages - usually around one second, or slightly longer.

Your DSL connection is more likely the problem. Especially if it is marginal and retrying the transmissions. You won't even be able to detect that because it happens at the link layer, not the IP layer.

That is exactly what I wanted to know. :)

It's not a DSL, it's just rural wireless. It does spike to over what they say I should get, both up and down, so there is some peak capability there. I suspect that is variable though. I know buffering can be a real bugaboo when overdone at various places before the connection gets to me, but could there be some advantage to having some buffering on my end?
 
If you're not opposed to the switch, pfSense on an old PC works well. You can buy an older i486 or i586 class embedded box (Soekris, PC Engines, et c.) and route a 1.5 mpbs connection all day. I've found the feature set to be far superior to DD-WRT or Tomato, and far less trouble than setting up your own Linux or BSD firewall/router from scratch.
 
My routers run DD-WRT. Usually there is a status page that tells you how many connections are open and being processed, how much memory is in use, what the CPU load is, etc. Tomato must have an administration interface that gives you those statistics - take a look at it. (In DD-WRT just bringing up the routers address in a browser will get you the page.)

If you find one of those things is overtaxed or running short, then it's time to upgrade. But it's a 1.5Mb/s connection .. at best that works out 150KB to 200KB/sec of bandwidth. Forget the 486 .. I have a 386 that can do that. ; - 0

Rural wireless is usually done over radio .. that's even worse. What are your typical ping times to servers in the real world? You might just be getting hit with excessive latency from the radio service.
 
If you're not opposed to the switch, pfSense on an old PC works well. You can buy an older i486 or i586 class embedded box (Soekris, PC Engines, et c.) and route a 1.5 mpbs connection all day. I've found the feature set to be far superior to DD-WRT or Tomato, and far less trouble than setting up your own Linux or BSD firewall/router from scratch.
That sounds interesting. It's basically the outward facing router I'm concerned about. According to Mike that is unlikely to be the problem, so it is only the features that are of interest. On the front router, I basically only need to measure monthly usage and realtime use. The latter is mostly out of interest, but monthly usage is important. At the moment I have two WRT54G(L) routers and one 8 port switch plugged into a WRT54Gv2.2 which goes to my wireless radio (WAN).
 
My routers run DD-WRT. Usually there is a status page that tells you how many connections are open and being processed, how much memory is in use, what the CPU load is, etc. Tomato must have an administration interface that gives you those statistics - take a look at it. (In DD-WRT just bringing up the routers address in a browser will get you the page.)

I do have a window open logged in to each of the routers all the time - learning about this was part of the reason to not just use another, or bigger, switch. Most of the menus are for configuration, and I'm leaving defaults mostly, so as not to break what I don't know about. There is excellent realtime (2sec sample) TX, RX, (with peak and average) monitoring. Apart from that, there's:
Code:
  CPU Load (1 / 5 / 15 mins)	0.00 /  0.00 / 0.00
  Total / Free Memory	14.19
That's current, with me on here, my wife browsing, and internet radio on another computer. I thought I could only set the maximum number of connections (default 4096), but now you made me look and I see that I can click on "currently tracked" which then (now) hovers around 67 or so.

If you find one of those things is overtaxed or running short, then it's time to upgrade. But it's a 1.5Mb/s connection .. at best that works out 150KB to 200KB/sec of bandwidth. Forget the 486 .. I have a 386 that can do that. ; - 0

Hmm, it doesn't look like it. I get your point. Router processing power is probably not what I need. :)

Rural wireless is usually done over radio .. that's even worse. What are your typical ping times to servers in the real world? You might just be getting hit with excessive latency from the radio service.

I get about 3ms to the distant tower, and 8ms to the first router after that which I'm guessing is the backhaul.

My ISP (about) 5 hops: rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 14.861/20.976/31.235/5.062 ms
My web hosting provider - Seattle centre: rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 21.142/24.176/26.958/1.794 ms
Vintage-computer.com: rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 86.847/91.945/120.269/9.054 ms
Google.com: rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 20.116/22.047/23.085/0.867 ms
Wired.com: rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 20.536/26.733/47.790/6.819 ms

That's not too bad is it?
 
While not great, not terrible either.

I would check to see what the loads are via the GUI, or if a terminal is offered via something like BusyBox try running "uptime" to see the load averages, it'll help determine if you're being bottlenecked CPU, free -m will show if you're running out of ram.

I currently have a Linksys E1000 V2.1 running as a DD-WRT based wireless repeater with no problems at all, 3 systems running on it at any time and file transfers as well. Not sure what the specs of the 64G\L are, but the E1000 v2.1 is a 300 MHz Broadcom chip with 32 megs of ram.
 
While not great, not terrible either.

I would check to see what the loads are via the GUI, or if a terminal is offered via something like BusyBox try running "uptime" to see the load averages, it'll help determine if you're being bottlenecked CPU, free -m will show if you're running out of ram.

Just radio and me on here right now.
Code:
# uptime
 13:24:26 up 115 days, 16:03, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
# free
              total         used         free       shared      buffers
  Mem:        14528        11568         2960            0         1180
 Swap:            0            0            0
Total:        14528        11568         2960

I didn't realize I could do that. Thanks for the hint! I'll try that during some heavier use, such as when larger transfers are happing between computers as well.

I currently have a Linksys E1000 V2.1 running as a DD-WRT based wireless repeater with no problems at all, 3 systems running on it at any time and file transfers as well. Not sure what the specs of the 64G\L are, but the E1000 v2.1 is a 300 MHz Broadcom chip with 32 megs of ram.

The WRT54G/L runs at 200MHz and has 16MB ram and 4MB flash. As I'm learning it doesn't sound like I can take advantage of higher speed (the WRN3500L runs at 480MHz), but more ram and USB port may allow me to take advantage of some features in the larger builds of Tomato. I haven't tried DD-WRT.
 
Wearing my contrarian hat, I venture that while your average loads are well within nominal bandwidth, the number of applications and monitors that are sharing your input stream is likely to produce transient peaks in any of the levels (including local ethernet, router, host CPU) that could compound, and who knows how your wireless broadband provider is arbitrating the inherent bandwidth-sharing of your connection.

With so many variable, I would start at the other end, with the only application that forces you to notice apparent bandwidth deficiency - your audio streams.

I don't know what audio stream player you use, but VLC is one that gives options to increase the size of application cache. If I had your problem I would try the cache setting for highest latency, and it that weren't enough I would investigate how far you could increase cache using the "custom" setting. Standard DAB+ has ~2secs cache latency, so even 3-5secs cache would not harm the listening experience where smooth continuity is critical.

Rick
 
Wearing my contrarian hat, I venture that while your average loads are well within nominal bandwidth, the number of applications and monitors that are sharing your input stream is likely to produce transient peaks in any of the levels (including local ethernet, router, host CPU) that could compound,

That certainly is how many things work, I don't know about packets though - it makes sense to me. In fact that is what I was assuming at first, but Mike B seemed to think that routing power was a doubtful limitation.

and who knows how your wireless broadband provider is arbitrating the inherent bandwidth-sharing of your connection.

Everybody is using commercial traffic shaping appliances these days, and I doubt even the ISP knows "what's in the box". I find generally strange internet behaviour, and I bet everyone else would too, if they thought about it.

With so many variable, I would start at the other end, with the only application that forces you to notice apparent bandwidth deficiency - your audio streams.

I don't know what audio stream player you use, but VLC is one that gives options to increase the size of application cache. If I had your problem I would try the cache setting for highest latency, and it that weren't enough I would investigate how far you could increase cache using the "custom" setting. Standard DAB+ has ~2secs cache latency, so even 3-5secs cache would not harm the listening experience where smooth continuity is critical.

Right now, I'm only using internet radio as an indicator, but it is certainly something worth looking at. I like VLC but rarely use it, though I will probably do so more when I clean up my internet audio act at some point. For the time being, I'm using an embedded Adobe Flash player - currently on radiotuna.com. I've used another "station" in the past which had a huge buffer (20sec?), and that was actually very stable. This radiotuna one seems to have a very short buffer (1.5sec?) which has some real advantages when it comes to quickly changing streams. In this case it may also be helping to expose the elusive flaw that I'm hoping to find.

It's quite possible that there is nothing I can do to improve my internet experience that involves my router. I'm OK with that, but bemoan the fact that I don't have a legitimate excuse to buy a new one any more. :)
 
There is one other thing I thought about while checking some stuff on my E1000, and that is how far away is your system from the router? The E1000 is in the kitchen as an extender, as the main wireless is on the wall near the first 3rd and the E1000 on the 2nd 3rd as the signal was terrible in my mom's room, and before the extender was put up slowness was a frequent issue.

If you're router is in another room and the signal is somewhat weak for the device, you might have a reason to invest in a router as an extender, as DD-WRT works great for it (no MAC addresses or anything, just the wireless name, passcode and the encryption type).
 
There is one other thing I thought about while checking some stuff on my E1000, and that is how far away is your system from the router?
I'm only concerned about wired connections. Wireless is mostly for visitors and playing around and I get great coverage over the whole compound and upstairs too. Except for one location where it actually matters - to the cottage. I fixed that though. I put 9dBi antennas on a WRT54G and then put it about 10 feet further in one direction from where the other routers are - near the outside wall which makes the angle different.

Before that, the signal had to go through a steel screened window and a steel door, or perhaps just the few inches of wood wall in the corner between the two, Then a big wide old tree, a 12 foot thick wood pile, and then dodge the metal overhang on the cottage front. It still has to negotiate most of that. It used to be pretty rough, but now it actually makes it, and is stable. I think it's all the metal roofing on the various overhangs and buildings which reflects the signal around. I was prepared to use a wireless bridge (hence the extra router), but this works just fine. It's a miracle!

I actually have three wireless channels going now. The SSID on one is "Enter your credit card number", and on another, "VIRUS WARNING!". I wouldn't be surprised if one of my neighbours has taken their laptop in to get looked at. :p
 
I've used a WRT54G for some time and after that an
Asus WL520GU, which I was very happy with. The original software is ok, I replaced it by Tomato which ran very very well and stable.

As the Asus was limited to 802.11G, and has 100 Mb LAN ports, I replaced it now by a WNDR3800.

Thats not a WNR3500L, but I can only comment that I don't like Netgears stock software, at least the interface is a mess and pretty useless.
I'd love to put tomato on mine but there isn't a good version for it - I'd check if there is for the WNR3500L before I would buy it (it seems there is)
I see there's a 3500L and a 3500Lv2 btw.

The performance of my 3800 seems ok, although the range and signal looks to be worse than the Asus, possibly bc it has no external antenna.
The USB, well, I dont really need it, I use a dedicated pc as a server.

Alternatively I considered the 3700v3, that seems to be nice too.

I guess best info and discussions are here: http://www.myopenrouter.com/
 
Does anybody find a USB port on a router to be useful?
The main idea behind it is for network attached storage, but why not just conect the USB storage device directly to the computer? It would take just as much hassle to configure the drive to be seen rather than to map the USB drive as a network drive. It would come in handy if your printer is limited to USB connectivity. It then allows for networked printing capabilities.
 
I have an Asus router (well wi-fi + router) with 2 USB ports, I originally thought that I would install a 3party Linux distro on it so that I could connect a 3G USB dongle to it and get Internet that way - I had no way to get wired internet to the house back then. But in the end I never did. Out of the box those USB ports were presumably for usb storage or some such (as mentioned by the previous poster), but I cannot see why I would ever want to do that. If I need shared storage I much prefer to connect that to an actual computer than to let my router (which is much closer to the external Internet after all, among other reasons) be the file server.

So the short answer is I have never found a use for the USB ports although I originally thought they would be nifty, so now that I'm looking for a faster wi-fi router with much better signal strength and sensitivity I don't take the absence or existence of USB ports into consideration at all.

-Tor
 
A router with USB ports is a poor man's NAS. Yes, it is probably faster to just directly connect the USB storage to your local machine. But if you need to access the storage from several places and don't want it moving around, using the USB ports on a router makes perfect sense.

If you really need network attached storage, buy a dedicated appliance or build one. While the USB ports on a router are convenient, they do nothing to address protecting the storage. Dedicated NAS boxes generally give you options for RAID protection that the routers don't. (And the drives are on a faster, internal bus rather than USB.)
 
Thanks all for your knowledge and suggestions! :)

. . . Thats not a WNR3500L, but I can only comment that I don't like Netgears stock software, at least the interface is a mess and pretty useless. I'd love to put tomato on mine but there isn't a good version for it - I'd check if there is for the WNR3500L before I would buy it (it seems there is) I see there's a 3500L and a 3500Lv2 btw.

I guess best info and discussions are here: http://www.myopenrouter.com/

Yes, that's a good link - thanks. :) I've already read a lot of it. I always spend some hours reading before I ask here.

The 3500L version2 has 128MB flash and 128MB ram, and I'm not sure there is a good version of Tomato, or anything else, which utilizes that effectively. There is also a lot of ignorant and very conflicting information about it, so it looks like it could be wise to avoid. The version 1 has 8MB flash and 64MB ram, and has a good version of Tomato.

I think it might be worth having the extra ram . For basic routing, I've got more than I need in the Linksys WRT54G(L) ones I have, but the capabilities of the Toastman builds of Tomato are enticing me and they need the extra memory for a full install.

As for the USB, I see now that it is not really very useful. It is better to just have a little space on the router to manoeuvre. It's Linux on the command line with busybox, so works for me. I always run a home server anyway, so everything that people do with USB is better that way - unless of course I play with something oddball as Compgeke suggests. Or plug a USB printer into it.

In the end, I'll probably get the 3500L. They're only $50, including shipping. Now that I've looked at it so much, it feels like I need it. (I'm an idiot.) Anyway, playing with this stuff does teach me something - though all the networking stuff I've been reading (not buying) is where the mother lode of knowledge really is. lol
 
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