Stay away from tvrsales on ebay

[Al Kossow]

From Sellam:

eBay seller id "tvrsales" is currently selling property STOLEN from the
Vintage Computer Festival.

If you are planning on buying anything of a vintage computer nature from
eBay seller "tvrsales" in Stockton, California, please know that you are
most likely BIDDING ON STOLEN PROPERTY.

The VCF Archives were STOLEN by Tri-Valley Recycling (eBay ID "tvrsales")
in cahoots with the landlords of the building where it was sold.

The sordid tale can be read about through lawsuit material already on my
website for download:

http://vintagetech.com/download/lawsuit/

 

[barythrin]

Thank you Al for cross posting. I was about to as well.

 

[eeguru]

While I completely and totally empathize with your plight, legally this will be a tough up-hill battle. From reading your filing, by your own admission unless I'm missing something you had access to the building from November 17 to December 2. That's 14 days. A judge isn't going to care that a truck driver had the flu, the rain made it wet, you had inadequate council, why your forklift or truck broke down, an unrelated foreclosure matter, or it's an impressive but personal collection. Judges are heartless drones by design. The land lord will argue he gave you every opportunity to move it out during those two weeks and it was still there on Dec 12 - past a Nov 26 deadline you admit to orally agreeing to with his council present. I sincerely hope you get the bulk of your collection. However if he sold the contents as-is to a recycler for the balance of what he believed he was owed - rightly or wrongly - it's going to make things that much worse with a third party involved and in possession.

Good luck with the suit. Hopefully you can get a restraining order soon to prevent any further liquidation before the case can be heard in court. And thanks for the heads-up here. As a frequent eBay buyer, I'll be sure to stay away from it.

 

[Ole Juul]

What eeguru said. And good luck.

 

[NeXT]

Gotta admit. It's the fault of the VCF to not grab what they could by any means possible when the deadline came and ultimately went.
Up north here at least if you gotta go and you leave (or you fail to move items by a written deadline and you got debts to the owner) with stuff still on the property it now belongs to the building owner and he can do whatever he wants with it.
When I caught wind at a previous employer that I was about to be cut I came in the day before and cleaned out an entire crawlspace full of my stuff. Took me an afternoon but I knew that if I didn't move it now I wouldn't see it again.

Pity. That recycler is going to make a few grand off that haul. Probably a percentage of that too will be destroyed for scrap metals.

 

[MikeS]

A sad story to be sure, but Sellam really has no one to blame but himself; as a landlord and property manager myself, you can only afford to grant extensions and listen to excuses so long before you finally have to take possession and clear out the place in order to rent it and start having some income again, and it sounds as if this has been outstanding since April or May. I'm not familiar with California law, but as Next says up here the landlord is entitled to sell any contents still left in the premises after a reasonable time after getting an order for vacant possession, especially when it's a commercial property with no lease. Not much different from those storage unit auctions on TV.

Despite his often abrasive nature and having alienated some members in the past I'm pretty sure that if he had come to the collector community for help there would have been a way to raise the paltry $4 or 5,000 to save his sizeable collection and find some way to go forward.

Missing deadline after deadline, representing himself in court, making excuses like bad weather, broken down trucks, etc. etc. were almost sure to result in this outcome, and blaming everyone except himself, libelling Tri-Valley and threatening to sue any member of our community who buys anything from them isn't making things any better.

Definitely a shame though, not just for Sellam but for the community as well, insofar as quite a bit of his stuff probably will go or has already gone into those dumpsters. On the other hand, some good stuff there that someone will surely buy...

Don't let it happen to you!

 

[Arcady]

Looking through completed auctions for that seller, it looks like they got over $4000 for just one Apple II computer. If that came from this warehouse, why didn't the owner just sell one or two items to cover the rent?

And who pays $4000+ for an Apple II? Jeez.

 

[MikeS]

Looking through completed auctions for that seller, it looks like they got over $4000 for just one Apple II computer. If that came from this warehouse, why didn't the owner just sell one or two items to cover the rent?

As a matter of fact he did finally offer to sell a few items from his (purportedly) $500K collection, but not until after his deadline for clearing out the warehouse had expired.

For folks interested in what this is all about, here are some pictures of his warehouse, now presumably in dumpsters and Tri-Valley's warehouse:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/2533384722/

 

[TanruNomad]

Looking through completed auctions for that seller, it looks like they got over $4000 for just one Apple II computer. If that came from this warehouse, why didn't the owner just sell one or two items to cover the rent?

And who pays $4000+ for an Apple II? Jeez.

And to think I turned down a $300 Apple II about 3 years ago. *Smacks self*. I find I get most of my desired collection using 2 things: patience and Craigslist alerts on my phone.

 

[MikeS]

And to think I turned down a $300 Apple II about 3 years ago. *Smacks self*.

I think we all have a few dents in our foreheads like that... ;-)

 

[eeguru]

From the provided statements, I believe he made an attempt to sell a few items to extend his stay, but the timing for that didn't work out either. It's a weird story. In this down economy owners tend to work with their tenants more as a little money is better than no money - unless they have a new tenant lined up already. But from the state of disrepair the building was in, I'm skeptical someone was waiting in the wings. Sounds like a case of the owner just being unsympathetic. And given the length of the otherwise good standing rental arrangement for many years leading up to that point, I'm guessing there is more to the story.

 

[Trixter]

This is the first I've heard of this story -- does this mean Sellam has lost his entire collection? Was everything he had in this building?

 

[barythrin]

I'm not sure what all he had but yes the majority of his collection was in that building which he used as an office and it used to be a datacenter/hosting place as well. That picture was pretty accurate from when I was there as well. Sucks to have happen. I know folks are bouncing on both sides of the argument, but take a look at the picture and think what is a reasonable timeframe to find, afford, and move 10,000sf of a computer collection.

For others asking, yes he did offer to sell things from the collection and yes it was last stitch effort to get some money in to help keep things alive. I think unfortunately many of us are in similar tough times though and while I'd gladly sell a kidney* on craigslist to salvage the collection I don't have the money or space either even if I did want to buy something to help. I don't know if many folks were able to speak up or purchase things in a timely manner either but it sounds like shortly after he came to that desperation they began locking him out of the building.

I know it's a shit scenario that we hear one side, but again I saw the place before. To make money that was his office for several points of income, locking one out of their office has an adverse affect on acquiring the income needed to pay the back payments in the first place. It does look grim though. He's fought a few times already about it in court during the other case but the longer things are in limbo the faster they're trying to sell the equipment and of course it won't likely be coming back even if it did get turned around.

Whether right or wrong, I've had my fair share of nightmares of my collection being gone, stolen, sold behind my back and unless you've had that sunken feeling of your life's dreams and work ripped away it's hard to explain the emotion and distress it would cause. Maybe I'm the odd man out but I'd be surprised if others haven't had similar horrible dreams like that. Coming back to your collection and finding only empty shelves and torn up pieces on the floor.

 

[MikeS]

... Maybe I'm the odd man out but I'd be surprised if others haven't had similar horrible dreams like that. Coming back to your collection and finding only empty shelves and torn up pieces on the floor.

Maybe I'm the odd man out, but if I had a collection that was my life's dream and was worth a half million dollars I think I'd find a way somehow to raise the necessary $4,000 or so in the six months or so that he had to avoid this. As I read it he wasn't locked out of his office until December, while the rent was in arrears since before June.

I'm sorry for him but I'm afraid I hold Sellam largely responsible for what happened and, as someone else pointed out on another forum, his insistence that no one buy any of the stuff from Tri-Valley and threatening to sue anyone who does probably means that even more things will end up in landfill or crushed for gold if they can't move it.

 

[Maverick1978]

Maybe I'm the odd man out, but if I had a collection that was my life's dream and was worth a half million dollars I think I'd find a way somehow to raise the necessary $4,000 or so in the six months or so that he had to avoid this.

MikeS, you're often abrasive on this forum, and I'm hit and miss on what I see eye-to-eye with you on (not that you'd ever have known, as I've never commented on it before!!), but you've hit the nail on the head.

I've only read his personal account (the last PDF in the link provided in the other thread). He had quite a bit of back-rent that was originally owed. Even as far away as those pictures you linked are (and wow, that is an impressive collection!!) - I can see much duplicated equipment. He should've picked 5 items that would've brought him some bucks, put them on eBay, made it known amongst all of his industry/museum/collecting contacts that these were his collection, outlined the pieces' lineages, and walked away with the likely $10k he'd have gotten, assured that his rent was paid ahead for a few months.

I feel for the guy in losing his life's work. Truly, I do. But honestly... he has absolutely no one to blame but himself. And therein lies the tragedy.

To my mind, the owner of the warehouse space provided adequate time. It's the renter's problem if he doesn't have the help/capital to clear a 10,500sqft warehouse within the what? extra month he was given? Or put the word out and let the community help - the $5 per head that most of us could have donated without feeling it would've went a long way towards hiring a few movers and a truck or two.

Sure, the warehouse owner could've contacted an insider or even Sellam himself and said "Pick 50 items - enough that will guarantee us at least $10,000 should they be sold at auction. Because I'm auctioning them on eBay - we split it 60/40, and my 60% will pay the back-rent that you owe me. Your 40% can go towards future rent, 2 months of which I'll be taking in advance as a deposit should you get yourself in arrears again."

But uh.... why would the owner do that? What incentive would he have had when all he got, from Sellam's own words, were excuse after excuse about why the rent was late, proving that there'd be no guarantee of future rental earning, and promising further problems in the future? When the law was on his side to rightfully seize the entire collection? When this wasn't his brother, son, nephew, cousin, neighbor, or friend to whom he owed the hand-holding and babying?

Simply put... he wouldn't. I wouldn't. And I'm into this stuff.

I don't know Sellam, I've never corresponded with or met him, but I feel for him, and I hope that he doesn't do something stupid should he go down into depression.... but this is a self-created problem. And one that could have relatively easily been avoided, even by selling off one duplicated piece of gear a month to go towards the rent, whether necessary to make that month's rent or not, because if it wasn't needed, then it could've been put into a nest-egg for future rental, just in case. I mean, if after several months of not paying it, the back-rent was only $3800, how much could it have been to rent it each month? Couldn't even a relatively few pieces have been being sold all along just to help cover expenses? C'mon...

 

[NeXT]

Oh my god. That picture.

I understand I have a problem when my collection takes up a massive amount of space in my parents house (three rooms, half a storage room and the garage) but that photo is insane. Half of that warehouse is a library.The other half is stuff crammed either onto shelving or stacked up in mounds. This is right up there with -name retracted-'s buy and Sell. I can barely see clean paths.
Before I still had some sympathy but now that I have a clear picture this might be someone's life work and other job but it also looks like a semi-organized case of hoarding.

I can see much duplicated equipment. He should've picked 5 items that would've brought him some bucks, put them on eBay, made it known amongst all of his industry/museum/collecting contacts that these were his collection, outlined the pieces' lineages, and walked away with the likely $10k he'd have gotten, assured that his rent was paid ahead for a few months.

I agree. He could easily burn down his inventory of duplicate systems and help him over rough patches. His inability to do this sooner is part of hoarder instinct. We all have done this to a lighter degree ("These don't break down but I don't think it would hurt to keep a few more around."). Even I admit to this.
Too late for him though. Looks like just trimming down his Apple II collection would of saved him.

Edited: According to further reading, for a large chunk of time he couldn't even access the warehouse so once this ball was rolling, he couldn't do much about it.

 

[mnbvcxz]

This is an unfortunate occurance, and I think he is being treated unfairly, I mean, what could he do?
He tried to sell stuff but no one was buying, he could not pay the rent so by extension he could not afford to move the stuff, pay the deposit on another warehouse and pay rent on that, so where could he move the stuff to?
The landlord had the right to recover money owed but is it reasonable to sell $500,000 worth of stuff for $4000? surely the OP should be left with the bulk of his collection, stored in the warehouse with the next few months rent paid for by the forced sale of at most 5% of the collection.
He would have got fairer treatment from a loan shark.

 

[MikeS]

MikeS, you're often abrasive on this forum...

Abrasive??? Moi??? ;-)

I certainly feel for him as well, but at the same time I'm a little PO'd that when the dust settles a lot of irreplaceable stuff will probably have been scrapped and lost forever. Much of his stuff was donated on the understanding that he'd preserve it and look after it, and I think he really dropped the ball. As you say, he could have avoided it by selling some duplicate items and if he'd brought the situation to the attention of the community soon enough I have no doubt there would have been a positive response.

I think (hope) that you'll find when I'm "abrasive" it's usually because I think something (like this issue) is unjust or at least unnecessarily rude.

I don't know the details, but it looks to me like Sellam's landlord finally lost patience and called Tri-Valley to empty his warehouse so he could rent it again, presumably offering them some proof that he was indeed entitled to do so. They came in with a crew and some trucks and cleared it out as asked, and instead of just dumping or crushing everything they offered some of it on eBay for pretty reasonable prices IMO.

For their pains this and other world-wide forums are now being used behind their back to libel them and call them "criminals", "thieves", etc. and discuss various ways of destroying their reputation on eBay; is that fair?

 

[eeguru]

He tried to sell stuff but no one was buying... ...is it reasonable to sell $500,000 worth of stuff for $4000?

And there it is. I'm not sure you speak for him or not, but obviously people are buying despite the information campaign. And one man's trash is another man's treasure. I'm sorry but it's not worth anywhere near that much unless you part it out and wait 12 months for 'that motivated buyer' for each of 1000 pieces. The landlord obviously didn't care about that since he's not the one patiently selling it piece by piece. He just wanted his space cleared. Thus the recycler probably hauled it away for the back balance at most - probably much less.

Watch a few episodes of Storage Wars. Some will make you cry - just like this story.

 

[NeXT]

the recycler probably hauled it away for the back balance at most - probably much less.

Sellam over on CCTalk mentioned (on issue 33, volume 113, message 21) that it cost the recycler some $61000 and 200 skids to empty the place out and move it three miles across town. Of course there's obviously a bias in there because we are still fighting to get straight answers out of the guy.