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OK all you XP diehards...

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About a gazillion iPhone App makers disagree with you.
I must confess that in this area I have no personal knowledge; it was my impression that the tablet makers discourage and purposely make it difficult to tinker with the OS and system files, unlike Linux in general where it is generally welcomed (which was the original point). It was also my impression that iApps had to be approved by Apple and that approval was denied or sometimes even retroactively withdrawn if it didn't meet their criteria.

Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding.
 
Simple question: if you're such an authority on "usability" and so good at pointing out obvious mistakes, why not actually volunteer your services toward fixing the problem? [...] Have you actually *tried* submitting a bug report/feature request describing how this could work better to the developers? Seriously, I'm genuinely curious if you did so and how that went down.
No, I haven't, and I'm not going to, because A. I'm not some kind of ultra-knowledgeable usability genius - I'm just someone who's actually used good software before and has made basic observations about how it's put together, who actually considers good UI important, and who isn't willing to ignore bad user experiences for the sake of using Ideologically Correct Software, and B. I have much, much better things to do with my time than submit bug reports for obvious, basic issues and aggravate myself putting up with them until they finally get fixed, like work on my actual hobby of drawing that I was attempting to use GIMP for. Suggesting that I should spend my time doing the kind of elementary QA that any developer worth their salt should be doing themselves is like arguing that if I walk into a restaurant and there's a decaying dog carcass on the counter, I should haul it out to the dumpster and clean and disinfect the cooking surfaces instead of just turning around and walking back out.
 
We really should not need to devolve into flamewars here. This is not Usenet. When wrestling with a pig, keep in mind that the pig likes it and you just get dirty.
Surprised it took you so long ;-) As it happens, I just had a long bath...

For the record, I personally have no real issues with Linux, nor am I personally offended or even agitated despite my learned friend's repeated assumptions that I am; one does not have to be personally offended to observe that something is rude and perhaps even offensive.

I was using UNIX and UNIX workalikes before I ever saw DOS and long before I opened my first window, so for me case sensitivity is indeed an "idiosyncrasy", "just how it works", and I don't really think about it at all.

What I was trying to get across is that if the Linux community really wants to 'sell' it to non-users, perhaps they should refrain from the tired sort of reactions we've seen in this thread. If someone says that they have trouble with some aspect of Linux, too often the knee-jerk response is a personal attack, a condescending implication that he/she is too dumb, that it's a feature and not a flaw, and of course the ever-popular "well, Windows is even worse!!!" Turning every free-standing criticism of Linux into a defensive "comparative discussion" (i.e. a counter-"attack") as my learned friend insists on doing accomplishes absolutely nothing except perhaps escalating the "battle".

If someone says that they find case sensitivity dumb and problematic, perhaps a better reply would be to respect their opinion with a "yes, it is unintuitive and can cause problems in certain circumstances (as my learned friend actually concedes), but unfortunately it's pretty well here to stay for compatibility reasons and there are actually cases where it's useful; like other aspects of Linux it takes a little getting used to and won't always make sense, but it's really not that bad once you get used to it".

Responding with denial and rejecting it with a condescending "I don't have a problem with it and even my 80-year-old father doesn't have a problem with it [so you must be pretty dumb indeed]" and personal insults like repeatedly calling the person who dared to complain a "hysterical little girl" just serves to confirm the stereotype that Linux users think they're smarter than non-users and that if you want to join the elite you'll have to learn the inner secrets before deserving any respect.

IMO, those attitudes and the de rigueur dissing of Windows and Windows users is a much greater factor in Linux' lack of acceptance than any flaws in Linux itself.
 
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Suggesting that I should spend my time doing the kind of elementary QA that any developer worth their salt should be doing themselves is like arguing that if I walk into a restaurant and there's a decaying dog carcass on the counter, I should haul it out to the dumpster and clean and disinfect the cooking surfaces instead of just turning around and walking back out.
LOL! A little extreme, but certainly a vivid image ;-)

But you make a good point; I've always been troubled by the attitude that "if you're not capable or willing to fix a problem yourself then STFU and don't complain about it!" although in my many years of customer support I've been tempted more than a few times myself...
 
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But you make a good point; I've always been troubled by the attitude that "if you're not capable or willing to fix a problem yourself then STFU and don't complain about it!" although in my many years of customer support I've been tempted more than a few times myself...

I would elaborate, "If you're not capable or willing to fix a problem and you're not interested in helping someone else through bugreports, donations, documentation, et c., then you're free to go use something else." Open source software only improves if people use it and provide feedback -- feedback can be anything from code contributions, monetary donations, bugreports, actually working through issues with developers, whatever. Simply using a product is consumption, not participation.
 
A fair point, and that's precisely what I did - went back to my Windows XP machine and my second-hand copy of Photoshop 7. But the attitude of "if you don't contribute to fixing it you shouldn't complain!" is pretty much the single biggest obstacle to Linux making any headway with normal users. Normal people (and, hell, even a lot of techies - like, say, myself) don't want to have to put up with badly-designed software and file bug reports on it in hopes of it one day becoming well-designed software. Normal people just want to use their computers to do stuff. If they can't get that with Linux, they're just going to go somewhere else.
 
Responding with denial and rejecting it with a condescending "I don't have a problem with it and even my 80-year-old father doesn't have a problem with it [so you must be pretty dumb indeed]" and personal insults like repeatedly calling the person who dared to complain a "hysterical little girl" just serves to confirm the stereotype that Linux users think they're smarter than non-users and that if you want to join the elite you'll have to learn the inner secrets before deserving any respect.

Mmmmhmmm.

Brass tacks: the real issue here is the distinction between "constructive criticism" and "flaming" and you're taking the side of someone who admits his MO after playing with something offered for free, no strings attached and disliking it is to from that day forward tell anyone who will listen to him that the thousands of man hours of work that went into that free thing have produced the equivalent of a "decaying dog carcass" and, clearly, everyone working on it is a moron. (Without even bothering to take the time to write the software development equivalent of comment card addressed to the application developers suggesting how they might improve their product in the future.) Interesting point of view there.
 
Brass tacks: the real issue here is the distinction between "constructive criticism" and "flaming" and you're taking the side of someone who admits his MO after playing with something offered for free, no strings attached and disliking it is to from that day forward tell anyone who will listen to him that the thousands of man hours of work that went into that free thing have produced the equivalent of a "decaying dog carcass" and, clearly, everyone working on it is a moron. (Without even bothering to take the time to write the software development equivalent of comment card addressed to the application developers suggesting how they might improve their product in the future.) Interesting point of view there.
I'm not obligated to give crap software a pass simply for being free, however many thousands of man-hours went into it. (And I never said that Linux developers were morons - I said they don't understand usability and don't consider it important. Please stop trying to make me into the straw man you'd like to be arguing with.) I'm not leaving comment cards because there's enough obvious, basic issues on the table that it would take me an unreasonable amount of time just to get started, and I can reasonably infer that it would be a hopeless case even if I did take the time to file bug reports/suggestions for all of them. Maybe the restaurant with the dead dog would serve me the best hamburger imaginable if I cleaned their kitchen for them, but I'm not going to go to the trouble on the off chance that that's the case.

And yes, I express my opinion of Linux when the subject of Linux comes up, because this is an Internet forum and that's what you do on an Internet forum. I really don't care whether you consider that "flaming;" if you can't deal with people saying nasty things about Linux, there's plenty of forums for Linux zealots out there.
 
On the other hand, many Linux users don't find the user experience deficient. Perhaps it's just not suited for you. Nothing wrong with that. If you (and other potential users) want it to become more like what you determine to be user-friendly, you *will* have to tell someone and work through improving the code -- even with the software I'm paid to develop professionally, end users invariably put it to work in ways I didn't originally intend, exposing flaws I never even considered.
 
(At this point I could smugly point out that on Linux it'd be easy enough to pipe the output of "ls" through "sort" to get the numbers in the correct order but I'll skip it because it's beside the point.)

That's not beside the point. That's true user friendliness. The problem isn't that Linux developers don't understand usability and don't care to. The problem is that most people want a toaster, instead of a powerful information manipulation system. It seems like a lot of people think that usability means a big red button labeled "Do my work for me". I'd argue those are the people who truly don't understand usability.
 
I would elaborate, "If you're not capable or willing to fix a problem and you're not interested in helping someone else through bugreports, donations, documentation, et c., then you're free to go use something else." Open source software only improves if people use it and provide feedback -- feedback can be anything from code contributions, monetary donations, bugreports, actually working through issues with developers, whatever. Simply using a product is consumption, not participation.
Yeah, I get that; if I happen to find an error I'm not entitled to report it or criticize unless my name is Torvalds or I'm prepared and have the skills to work on it or fix it myself or make a cash donation; merely noticing the error and describing it to people in a position to do something about it is not enough.

But yes, the attitude that 'you can't just use this software, you have to make a contribution and participate in its development" will certainly leave a lot of folks who don't have the technical skills or resources out in the cold, which is of course one of the main criticisms of the Linux 'mentality'.

I prefer the model where people write software for the challenge, pleasure and satisfaction of knowing people are using it and where feedback is welcome whether it's accompanied by a donation or offer to help or not.

We're certainly making quite a list of why so many people prefer to give Microsoft hundreds of dollars instead of using a 'free' alternative; presumably that's exactly what the Linux community wants.
 
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The problem is that most people want a toaster, instead of a powerful information manipulation system. It seems like a lot of people think that usability means a big red button labeled "Do my work for me". I'd argue those are the people who truly don't understand usability.
I'd argue that people who don't see a computer with that big red button as the ultimate in usability have a different definition of usability; fortunately the tablet side of Linux is actively striving toward the Big Red Button ideal...
 
Mmmmhmmm.

Brass tacks: the real issue here is the distinction between "constructive criticism" and "flaming" and you're taking the side of someone who admits his MO after playing with something offered for free, no strings attached and disliking it is to from that day forward tell anyone who will listen to him that the thousands of man hours of work that went into that free thing have produced the equivalent of a "decaying dog carcass" and, clearly, everyone working on it is a moron. (Without even bothering to take the time to write the software development equivalent of comment card addressed to the application developers suggesting how they might improve their product in the future.) Interesting point of view there.
I'm not defending anybody, I'm commenting on how criticism like his is generally received; I didn't think that he was comparing Linux to a decaying dog carcass, and I don't see any reference that "clearly everyone working on it is a moron".

You're clearly determined to distort and misrepresent (or perhaps you just don't read very well), so I think you and I are done with this.
 
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I'm not defending anybody, I'm commenting on how criticism like his is generally received; I didn't think that he was comparing Linux to a decaying dog carcass, and I don't see any reference that "clearly everyone working on it is a moron".

You're clearly determined to distort and misrepresent (or perhaps you just don't read very well), so I think you and I are done with this.

I would argue that what's really at work here is you're determined to read what I say through the worst possible filter while doing the exact opposite for him. IE:

A: He's repeatedly said in no uncertain terms that the entire enterprise is so incredibly flawed top to bottom it's completely unsalvageable, IE, exact quote: "I'm not leaving comment cards because there's enough obvious, basic issues on the table that it would take me an unreasonable amount of time just to get started, and I can reasonably infer that it would be a hopeless case even if I did take the time to file bug reports/suggestions for all of them.". How is he *not* saying it's a "dead dog" and not worth anyone's time here?

B: When you shout things like "they don't understand usability" while simultaneously contending that ANYONE (most importantly his humble self) can grasp the sheer enormity of the disaster they've created how is it *not* tantamount to saying that "they" (the application developers) are mentally defective in some way?

(I won't even touch C:, the underlying egotistical, entitled and destructive attitude that pervades the whole mess. "Oh, god, something that was free didn't work as well for me as a multi-thousand-dollar suite of commercial software, THE WORLD MUST KNOW! OVER AND OVER AGAIN!" What is the freaking point? )

But, sure, whatever. No hard feelings I hope. If I make the mistake of replying to this thread again I'll be sure not to quote you.
 
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It is hard not to observe that so many of our flame wars have the same common factor(s).

Closing the thread for now - if there is a productive, non-inflammatory discussion to continue then please start a new thread.
 
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