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Why so much Apple? Need a Commodore Fan's PoV

I wonder if geographical location has something to do with these perceptions. In the USA, before the IBM was released, Apple II+ computers were everywhere: Libraries, schools, in homes. My experience was completely the opposite of "Apple computers were around but I didn't know any one who owned one".
 
Even far into the eighties we used Apple II's and clones at work for various technical purposes. The slots made this possible. We added hardware for data collection as well as for controlling things like satellite antennas. They were very versatile machines.
 
Visicalc was sold in 1979.
... and in 1980 for the TRS-80 (including the 2, its' one of the few things that made the 2 'useful' given what jackasses RS was about third party software on the platform) and Atari 400/800... the release for the Model 1/3 coincided with the first catalog to even list the Model 3 (christmas 79, though at that point the 3 was pre-order only) -- which was only three months after it was released for the Apple II.

Honestly given how few II's there were in the channel at that time they'd have been complete morons not to fast-track a Z80 target, particularly the model 1 which outnumbered Apple II's 20 to 1 by 1980 and 30 to 1 by the start of '81 if you throw the Model III in the mix.

Which is why less than half a year after the Apple II release anyone saying to needed an Apple for Visicalc either didn't know what they were talking about or were lying through their teeth.
 
I'd love to read that story. :)
Extra credit question at the end of the test:
"Briefly give an overview of the plot"

My answer:
"You should be shot."

The book:
Adventures of Huckleberry Finn

Apparently the teacher had never read the "Notice" at the beginning of the real version of the book... as opposed to the butchered short-short pamphlet version the school system handed out.

Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot.

BY ORDER OF THE AUTHOR,
Per G.G., Chief of Ordnance.


I already knew most "educators" at that point were drooling halfwits, but it was nice to have confirmation on that. I had to drag three teachers before the board of education in the Commiewealth of Taxachusetts just to graduate high school as they were that full of shit; and ended up in the end transferring to another school I never even attended to get that pointless piece of paper. No joke, I had four times the class credits needed to graduate but the Plymouth school system refused to let me graduate due to my senior year math, English and history teachers all being total pratts!

Almost three decades later and I can still froth at the mouth over that final year... Let it go...
 
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Even far into the eighties we used Apple II's and clones at work for various technical purposes. The slots made this possible. We added hardware for data collection as well as for controlling things like satellite antennas. They were very versatile machines.

That's not uncommon. But, in retrospect, if it were me designing hardware interfaces, I'd rather have a PET or any of the C= 8 bits than an Apple for that. The slots were just that, "slots" that didn't have access to the whole machine.
 
It's my understanding that the expansion backplane in the II gave you full access to the I/O & address space of the machine.

g.
 
It's my understanding that the expansion backplane in the II gave you full access to the I/O & address space of the machine.

My memory says it doesn't, but that could be wrong. It's been a long time since I did anything with that.
 
I'm pretty sure an Apple II slot *CAN* have essentially carte-blanche access to the whole of the machine. (For instance, you can do DMA in any slot.) The thing that made Apple II slots "special" is they also had the pre-decoded slot selects (IE, the "I/O Select, I/O Strobe, and "DEVICE SELECT" lines) that gave you the option to dispense with most of the address decoding on simple cards. So in essence Apple II slots can be treated either like a full backplane-style bus or as "I/O slots".
 
Funny, I always saw it the other way around. The Commodore community always seemed more active and had more home brew hardware and software projects. I always looks in envy that the C64 had things like the Super CPU accelerator, Ethernet, and software like Contiki. That and the giant chip tune scene.

The Apple II line was everywhere in the education sector when I was growing up and our first family computer landed up being an Apple IIc as a result. My K-8 school had them in just about every classroom and they filled the computer lab until 1995 when PCs finally displaced them. They saw use at my high school for robotics classes until 1997 and they remained in use for controlling interactive Laserdisc players (run by Time-Out macros on Apple Works!) in science classrooms. Not to mention all my friends had Apple II machines as well (into the mid-90s).
 
The computer in schools around here were pretty well split, I think. Some had PETs, some had Apples, some had C64s.
 
I'm vaguely amused by the fact that my Commodore PETs originally were originally purchased for schools in Berkeley, CA. Just sort of feels to me like if anywhere was going to be an all-Apple shop it'd be Berkeley...

The first computer lab I remember using growing up was full of Commodore PETs and VIC-20s, although the same school had some one-off computers of various brands scattered around individual classrooms. (Apple IIs, a few TRS-80s, maybe a TI-99/4 or two.) I do think there was something of a regional aspect to the market share the various companies had during the pre-IBM days, although about the only generalization I can offer is perhaps that Apple's products were more common in well-to-do urban areas while small-town/blue-collar America was more likely to settle for Tandy or Commodore. I know when I was a young only the "rich kids" had Apple IIs at home, regardless of what the school happened to have, and after the C64 came out it was by *far* the most common alternative. (At least up until 1985 or so, when PC clones started getting cheap. Prior to the C64 if you had a computer at home it there was a *really* good chance it was a TRS-80, and your dad bought it because he was either an engineer or a Ham radio nut. I don't think I *ever* saw a PET in private hands, although they must have existed.)
 
That's not uncommon. But, in retrospect, if it were me designing hardware interfaces, I'd rather have a PET or any of the C= 8 bits than an Apple for that. The slots were just that, "slots" that didn't have access to the whole machine.
No, the slots on the Apple II are more than that. In any case, I shudder at the thought of trying to get a PET to do what we did with the Apple II computers. Not that I have ever even seen a PET in real life, but I would rather use an AIM 65 instead (and sometimes we did, when an Apple wasn't needed). We also used the BASIS-108 Apple II clone, those German boxes with 128KB RAM plus a Z80 which could alternatively run CP/M Plus. Very robust machines, to put it mildly.
 
No, the slots on the Apple II are more than that.
You're correct, but, something which I can't remember is lacking at the slot connectors. It might not have been important.

In any case, I shudder at the thought of trying to get a PET to do what we did with the Apple II computers.
Why is that? I can't picture anything that can be done with an Apple ][ that can't be done with a PET. But maybe I'm missing something. In fact, for some simple things, the PET is easier, with the 'user port'. For anything with HPIB, the choice is obvious.
 
Why is that? I can't picture anything that can be done with an Apple ][ that can't be done with a PET. But maybe I'm missing something. In fact, for some simple things, the PET is easier, with the 'user port'. For anything with HPIB, the choice is obvious.
Development environment, compilers? I never did anything in Basic on any of the systems I used back then (except for one application I wrote for a guy with a Dragon-32. Terribly limitating). Most of what I wrote for the Apple II was a mix of Pascal and 6502 assembly. Floppy disks? I used to have up to 4 of them on the development machine. And, again, lots of slots for a number of I/O cards, plus cards made by a local company for data monitoring.
Availability also of course, I'm not sure any PET was ever imported to Norway, not the early '2001' models and not the later CBM 'business' models. At least I never saw any or remember any announced in the magazines.

In any case, I meant to point out (in my first post in this thread) that I for one remember the importance and attraction of the Apple II very nearly like how it is described these days, I don't see any revisionist history there. In this I disagree with e.g. deathshadow, but obviously we must have had very different experiences.
 
Development environment, compilers? I never did anything in Basic on any of the systems I used back then (except for one application I wrote for a guy with a Dragon-32. Terribly limitating). Most of what I wrote for the Apple II was a mix of Pascal and 6502 assembly.
I always wrote my own compilers and worked a lot in assembly. One of these days I'll write a Pascal compiler too. :D I much prefer Pascal.

Floppy disks? I used to have up to 4 of them on the development machine.
I remember Disk ]['s being very expensive, and I wonder what the cost would be of a PET-2001N and two 4040's versus an Apple ][+ and four Disk ]['s. I'm guessing it would be similar, but I really don't know.

Obviously, at least in most of the world (Canadia excepted... maybe?) Apple ]['s were used much more extensively than the PET. I rarely ever saw any PET in any kind of use, and only in an educational environment that I can remember. I did see a few VIC-20's and C64's get industrial use due to the ease of use of the 'user port' which is of course the same as the PET.

In 1984, I would have used an Apple ][ because I didn't know anything about the Commodore products, and I felt the same way about the slots that most people did. Today, for me at least in retrospect, I think the Commodore computers would have been a better choice. The only cards I ever found myself using in an Apple were disk, 80 column, and serial port. I didn't really need 80 columns, and had I built an I/O card for the Apple, it would have been just as easy to do so for a Commodore.


Whatever we think about what happened and what could have, I still believe the C64 had a far bigger influence on home computing that any Apple ][. If only because they were so affordable that just about anyone (here) could have (and a lot did) buy one. In fact, I think if the VIC-20 and C64 didn't sell so well, the PC clones would have put an end to Apple round 1985 or so.
 
I remember Disk ]['s being very expensive, and I wonder what the cost would be of a PET-2001N and two 4040's versus an Apple ][+ and four Disk ]['s. I'm guessing it would be similar, but I really don't know.

I don't know because I was too young at the time, but I recall reading in several books that one issue with the PET/CBM machines early on was availability of ANY drives at all when it was first introduced for some unreasonable amount of time. That might have hindered its adoption over the Model I and Apple II. Certainly the cost of a TRS-80 was on par or perhaps cheaper than an Apple II when outfitted with drives.
 
True, and it seemed no one bought any drives when they were available. i dont remember ever seeing any PET with a disk drive until I got mine three years ago. ic'd seen PETs with modems, datasettes, and printers, but never disk drives.
 
In any case, I meant to point out (in my first post in this thread) that I for one remember the importance and attraction of the Apple II very nearly like how it is described these days, I don't see any revisionist history there.

I lost track of what period we're talking about here, but going back to the "Holy Trinity" days (Apple II, Commodore PET, TRS-80) and measuring by market share there's basically no comparison: The TRS-80 *massively* outsold the other two; it's not even close. Apple II's didn't outsell TRS-80s until 1983. (Also note that by that time the Atari 400/800 family was actually outselling both of them; Atari really dropped the ball letting the Commodore 64 steal that lead away from them.) Apple II sales didn't really take off until 1984, when it became the *second* most popular 8-bit on the market after the Commodore 64, and it remained second most popular until both of them were discontinued.

The Apple II *may* have grabbed a disproportionate amount of "mind share" back in the day because it was possibly the most "interesting" of the original Trinity (it was color, after all, and the company had its great "out of the garage" story behind it) but even if people wanted the Apple II back in the beginning it's not what they bought.

True, and it seemed no one bought any drives when they were available. i dont remember ever seeing any PET with a disk drive until I got mine three years ago. ic'd seen PETs with modems, datasettes, and printers, but never disk drives.

I found an ad in a 1979 Byte magazine for PETs and peripherals, and it claimed that you could have a dual-drive 2040 for "IMMEDIATE" delivery for $1295, which was the same price as 32K 2001N. (Interestingly the add also claims there will be a "2040A" single drive available "SOON"; did such a thing ever actually materialize? Never heard of one.) If we look at total system prices, well, If you bought a dual-disk TRS-80 out the 1979 Tandy computer catalog it'd cost you $849 for the computer, $448 for a 16k expansion interface, and $499 each for the disk drives, for a grand total of $2,295 for the TRS-80 vs. $2,590 for the PET. Of course, you could knock about $500 off the TRS-80 price if you only bought the computer and a 0k I/E from Radio Shack and mail ordered third party drives and RAM, not really an option for the PET. As for Apple, well... Here's a June 1979 price list. A two drive Apple II with at least 32k would have run you... $1,345 + $595 + $495 = $2,485

(If we *really* wanted to make the Apple compare straight across we should tack on $180 for the parallel printer port that came with the Tandy's expansion interface, thus taking the Apple up to $2,665. That barely makes it the most expensive again. Granted you might need to pay for a widget to connect a standard parallel printer to a PET as well...)

So... some sort of interesting conclusions you can get out of this:

1: If you call a two-disk configuration a "system" they're all really close in price, more so than I remember. The TRS-80 is still the cheapest; by how much depends on whether you're willing to buy parts out of someone else's catalog.

2: A PET cost more than either of its competitors, by a pretty substantial margin, to add *the first drive* to if you already had the computer itself. The Apple II was actually the cheapest. Maybe that explains the rarity of PET disk systems?

3: Although not specifically called out in this comparisons, of these systems the Tandy wins the prize for being the system that lets out get to an ultimate configuration by spending the least money *at any one time*; In 1979 you could have a 4k Level I Model I for $499, and incrementally expand that up to a two-disk system without ever spending more than $500 a shot even if you restricted yourself to the Radio Shack catalog. This is where I think Commodore really shot themselves in the foot; you could in *theory* get a 4k PET for $595, which considering it came with the tape recorder makes it pretty comparable, but Commodore did evil things like drilling holes in the motherboard so if you wanted to expand to a larger configuration you'd have to buy a whole new system. Without resorting to soldering (or possibly some third party memory boards that'd tack onto that big internal connector) if you wanted a 32K PET you had to buy a 32K PET, and in 1979 $1,300 was a lot of money. A 16k PET 2001N was $995, which was "only" $150 more than the comparable TRS-80 but that's still $150. (And it might still have a hole drilled through the motherboard to keep you from going to 32k later.) Apple's starting price of $1,195 for 16K looks almost more reasonable since at least all it takes to go to the full 48k is a handful of memory chips you *could* buy from someone else. (When you hit 32k the difference is only $50, and of course there's no such thing as a 48k PET.)

Anyway. Apple may have scorched itself into the collective consciousness but if you're talking about the era where most people first got their hands on a computer it's *not* the one most people had. Again, by the time it became the *second* most popular 8-bit IBM Clones were already selling about three times as many units. (That's the thing that makes the C64 so remarkable; there were two years where there were more C64s sold than IBM PCs and clones combined; the first one of those they sold more than PC Clones and *Apple IIs* AND TRS-80s combined.) If you want to talk about a company that had it all and completely blew it you have to look at Tandy; if they'd managed to introduce a compelling successor to the Model I that kept customers hooked with the "buy what you need when you need it" strategy instead of disappointing almost everyone with the Model III... I dunno, Tandy Corporate still probably would have managed to swallow their own head. But in any case, the Apple II seems to be more notable as being one of the last 8-bit systems standing than as the dominant system in the early years. Since they're also the last one of those *companies* standing, well... history's written by the winners, right?
 
Everybody I knew in highschool (1982-86) had a C64 or Atari 800 except for one guy with an Apple IIc. The school lab had a bunch of TRS-80 Model 3's and a couple IBM PC's.
 
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