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Is a replica ever more than a replica?

falter

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This is just a pure philosophical question, setting aside the realities of computer collecting and so on.

I have now four replica projects in the pipeline to take me out the next decade or so. Three of them (ELF, TVT and Mark8 ) were in their respective eras possible to scratch build using provided schematics or foil patterns. My question is this, if you, as a collector trying to create something you cannot buy, build one of these things using period correct methods and parts -- are they, for your purposes alone, really a replica? Is replica alone the right word? ie. Can you say, 'I have a TV Typewriter'? Or are you obliged to say 'I have a TV Typewriter replica'?

Obviously if you build, say, an Apple I replica, it can only ever be a replica, even if it uses original era chips, because the motherboard was never built from scratch by hobbyists, and thus if you don't have a board that was produced for and handled by Steve Jobs and Woz in 1976, it's not the real thing. But the TVT, the Mark-8 -- they had foil patterns out there and while a hobbyist could buy premade boards, they didn't have to. So as long as you keep the materials and methods the same, the only difference between yours and the guy who built one in 1974 is the year you built yours.

Thoughts? Purely intended for discussion on a rainy afternoon. I'd never try to pass off something I created as original, or try to sell it as such. But I'm wondering if I can feel justified, when my TVT project, etc are done, in saying, yeah, I have a TVT, ELF, etc.
 
If I chop down the perfect tree with an axe, split and shave spindles and stretchers, work them on a spring pole lathe, and shape a seat using antique hand tools I will still only have a replica of a period chair even though I built it exactly the way the originals were built, with the same tools. My hand-made replica might be worth more than a factory made piece, but even so it is not a historic artifact (aka the real thing).
 
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You're asking an impossible-to-answer question. It all depends upon who you are and what your motivation for collecting is. If you're in the "ghost in the machine" crowd, you don't care if the thing is working, just as long as it's authentic. Extra points if it belonged to someone famous. If you're in the "it's gotta work" crowd, that's a different matter and provenance might not matter too much. If you run a museum, you're probably in the former group.
 
The way I see it is if the main PCBs are not a period part then it's a replica.

If I chop down the perfect tree with an axe, split and shave spindles and stretchers, work them on a spring pole lathe, and shape a seat using antique hand tools I will still only have a replica of a period chair even though I built it exactly the way the originals were built, with the same tools. My hand-made replica might be worth more than a factory made piece, but even so it is not a historic artifact (aka the real thing).

If it was an old tree, could it be classed as original unused parts? :)

On a similar note, does anybody know of anybody producing replica Mark 8 pcb's?
 
My take on it would be that if you were to start from the printed PCB foils that appeared in a magazine article and proceed to build a TV Typewriter or whatnot the same way as a hobbyist would have back in 1970-whatever then you've totally earned the right to say "I have a TV Typewriter". Since we're talking about a manufactured item here rather than a strict "work of art" your blood-sweat-and-tears from-scratch TV Typewriter is technically just as "original" as a vintage one bought off eBay. (Or in other words, strictly speaking arguably neither is "original".) Since you built it you're going to be far more intimately familiar with it (IE, you're going to "own" it) more than the strict vintage collector who just buys an old unit will be so, again, I think it's perfectly fair to say it's *your* TV Typewriter with no qualification...

But, yes, at the same time it would of course be dishonest to pass it off as a genuine *antique* and because of its provenance it's never going to have the same perceived value as a unit from the original run, even if it's 100% qualitatively equivalent. I guess it all just comes down to how much the "ghost factor" matters to you. If it's not a REAL TV Typewriter if Don Lancaster didn't at some point breathe near its PCB then I guess you don't own one after building one.
 
Thanks guys.

Yeah it was just one of those 'Jack Handy' deep thoughts moments as I was compiling my catalog of my collection. I love our hobby but the prices of things have really gotten outrageous. I'm convincing myself that what I build here is legit, for myself. Would I like to have an original, built in the 70s ELF? Sure. But if I have at the end of the day exactly the same thing and the only difference is that I built it with my own hands in 2015, does it really matter to me? I'm beginning to think it doesn't. Especially if it means not having to fight with ebay snipers.

Plus, I'm getting the experience the hobbyist had back in the day building these things to a large degree, and that's something I could never get with a 40 year old antique original. My TVT will be as close to Don's prototype as one can get. The keyboard is the exact same company, same feel, same era. Box is the same shape. Boards are the same design. And unlike Don's, which is under lock and key forevermore at a museum, never to be used (or even touched) again, mine can be. When I take it to shows people will actually be able to get the experience of the thing. I find that kind of liberating.
 
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It may not be worth as much as an original, but if it can replicate the nostalgia, that makes it priceless. :D

Plus, some of us welcome relatively inexpensive clones, especially for the rare and expensive cards. My Mockingboard 1a is awesome! It's every bit as good (and flawed :p) as the original, and worth every penny I paid for it. Right now I'm eagerly awaiting the release of the Transwarp GS clone. I'd dearly love to get my mittens on one of those, the originals are just too expensive.
 
I've built a couple of replicas, an Apple 1, SCELBI 8B, COSMAC Elf and a ZX80. I've found the whole process of learning about the machines, sourcing the components and building them to be really enjoyable. I didn't go to the extremes of finding components with the correct dates codes, just what looked or felt right. This is good enough for me, they look and operate just like the real thing and I can use them without fear of damaging a valuable original.

I can also see the advantages of other replicas which use modern micro controllers such as the Replica 1 and Altair 8800 kit but they just don't feel right to me. Replica 1 looks too modern and to me the whole appeal of an Altair is pulling the lid off and stuffing it with all kinds of weird & wonderful expansion cards.

Looking forward to seeing your finished TVT and also Marty's PDP 8 clone :)
 
I hear you on the Replica 1 and altair kit. In my mind if you're not going for a physical replica you might as well do emulation on a PC. Not to take away from the impressive job each did. Now, Grant Stockly's Altair kit from years ago.. that I would have jumped on. He even had Optima making the case for him, with some of the original people who made Altair cases helping. He used actual S100 format cards and it all looked real. I would have leapt on that and not given a second look to an original. But alas..

Luckily Altairs aren't entirely out of reach yet.. I'm saving up for one and will pounce the next time one in the right zone ($2k-3k) appears. I don't care if it actually works or not.
 
I just caught this now -- are Mockingboards rare? I got one as part of a pile of stuff that came as part of a lot with an Apple IIc+. It, a couple of mouse interface cards and a super serial card. If it's rare I will treat it with a bit more respect. It's currently in a pile with those other cards.

It may not be worth as much as an original, but if it can replicate the nostalgia, that makes it priceless. :D

Plus, some of us welcome relatively inexpensive clones, especially for the rare and expensive cards. My Mockingboard 1a is awesome! It's every bit as good (and flawed :p) as the original, and worth every penny I paid for it. Right now I'm eagerly awaiting the release of the Transwarp GS clone. I'd dearly love to get my mittens on one of those, the originals are just too expensive.
 
My take on it would be that if you were to start from the printed PCB foils that appeared in a magazine article and proceed to build a TV Typewriter or whatnot the same way as a hobbyist would have back in 1970-whatever then you've totally earned the right to say "I have a TV Typewriter". Since we're talking about a manufactured item here rather than a strict "work of art" your blood-sweat-and-tears from-scratch TV Typewriter is technically just as "original" as a vintage one bought off eBay. (Or in other words, strictly speaking arguably neither is "original".) Since you built it you're going to be far more intimately familiar with it (IE, you're going to "own" it) more than the strict vintage collector who just buys an old unit will be so, again, I think it's perfectly fair to say it's *your* TV Typewriter with no qualification...

But, yes, at the same time it would of course be dishonest to pass it off as a genuine *antique* and because of its provenance it's never going to have the same perceived value as a unit from the original run, even if it's 100% qualitatively equivalent. I guess it all just comes down to how much the "ghost factor" matters to you. If it's not a REAL TV Typewriter if Don Lancaster didn't at some point breathe near its PCB then I guess you don't own one after building one.

I agree with this. If you found a guy(s) who has the same machine(s) that can make the parts you need to complete a TV Typewriter down to the wires, use all orginal parts, and go to the arctic to take a core sample of the air and water from the time and drink it and breathe at the same time...it may actually be possible to go back in time.
 
Besides building some reproductions, I built a Scopewriter from plans in PE magazine, etching my own PCB.

http://www.willegal.net/blog/?p=3446

I consider it an original Scopewriter, though not near as interesting as a 70s era build would be.

I think a Mark 8 made today from PE plans with home etched PCBs should be in the same category.


regards,
Mike W.
 
Mike introduced the "reproduction" word to this thread. I feel that's the best term.

We use that term to explain our Mimeo 1 and Scelbi (both being Mike's kits) to visitors at the museum here in NJ.

I feel it's only fair to say "I have a..." if the item was made when it was modern.

(Funny story on a similar note. We all know Jon Titus as the guy who invented the Mark-8. Absolutely true fact: I was a coworker of Jon's for a couple of years. Reality check: "I was a coworker of Jon Titus ..... in 2007-2008." :) Not as impressive, is it?)
 
Who's asking the question? It only matters inasmuch as it matters to the asker. Some words are deemed "media" words. They're (put) there to evoke emotion, and as a result can take on new meaning. Someone can manufacture a firearm and it could perfectly replicate (you don't see that word) every feature of the original. Or it can even improve upon the original. But for all intensive purposes, those having to do with accuracy, penetrating ability, etc., it is that very firearm. To the shooter who's looking to experience what he/she had known about it other then bu using it, it don't matter much. Bare in mind though some replicas can't even shoot.

Many of us get into collecting for nostalgic reasons, but that doesn't mean we like paying a lot (or at all) for this old stuff. But being some of it is hard to find (the bulk still a lot less then when new), it takes on extra value. But if say Amiga 1000s were continuously produced into the 21st century, and for arguments sake in much lower numbers then 1984, people would still want them I'm sure. And the dividing line between "authentic" and replica is blurred considerably.

Every category of reproduction has to be evaluated independently. Replica can mean an actual chip for chipreproduction. Or it could mean an injection molded original (from original dies even) of a TRS-80 model 4, with 1big ol honkin fpga sitting in the middle of a life sized circuit board. What's the difference? Depends who you ask.
 
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I guess it all depends on what you do, or what you want to achieve with your collection. A replica of a '67 Shelby Mustang will not garner the same interest as an authentic '67 at a car auction or collector's club, however it will still get people's attention and be a fun ride.

They're (put) there to evoke emotion, and as a result can take on new meaning. Someone can manufacture a firearm and it could perfectly replicate (you don't see that word) every feature of the original. Or it can even improve upon the original. But for all intensive purposes, those having to do with accuracy, penetrating ability, etc., it is that very firearm. To the shooter who's looking to experience what he/she had known about it other then bu using it, it don't matter much. Bare in mind though some replicas can't even shoot.

Good analogy. The old saying, "they don't make them the way they used to," can be viewed as either positive or negative depending on your interests.
 
I just caught this now -- are Mockingboards rare? I got one as part of a pile of stuff that came as part of a lot with an Apple IIc+. It, a couple of mouse interface cards and a super serial card. If it's rare I will treat it with a bit more respect. It's currently in a pile with those other cards.

From my experience they're relatively rare and expensive. I see them on eBay every now and then, and they usually go for a few hundred bucks. There's a very low-cost Korean clone, but it's not as nice as the Mockingboard 1a, in my opinion.
 
If I chop down the perfect tree with an axe, split and shave spindles and stretchers, work them on a spring pole lathe, and shape a seat using antique hand tools I will still only have a replica of a period chair even though I built it exactly the way the originals were built, with the same tools.

But any ignorant schmuck with a few coins to rub together can go buy an antique chair while if someone were to go through all the motions of carving one out for themselves they would in the process have actually earned the right to call themselves a craftsperson of similar caliber to those who made the originals.

It really does come down to why you're in the hobby. If you're strictly a "collector" then, yes, a replica is of absolutely no interest because it's "fake", just like a counterfeit stamp or knockoff Beanie Baby. But for someone practicing a different hobby building one might be an amazing experience even if the end result isn't worth much more than its component parts monetarily. Different strokes for different folks or whatever.
 
a replica could still be interesting to a collector so I have to disagree. What about a comic book reprint? For those that could never afford the real thing, this is in some ways an adequate substitute, just have to be honest w/yourself and others about it. What about an Alto or other rare unit? I'll likely never own one (ain't looking either). But a accurate replica for not a huge amount could very well be interesting.
 
I look at this very much like the vintage car community.

If you took a brand new frame and bolted vintage parts to it, its a reproduction. If you took an original frame unbuilt, and built it using vintage parts, then it's an original just a complete restoration, the same as if I took an altair and completely rewired it using vintage wire (which I have done). If you had an original but had to replace a part here or there to make it work, it's just an original, the type, date, age of the replacement parts (i.e. IC or Capacitor) dictating how original. If no replacement parts and it still works and in good condition, then Factory Fresh is the typical term.

So what does this all mean, if you have an old set of Mark-8 boards from the 70's and you want to build them. You will have a working original Mark-8. Some people may think that's crazy, and say you should keep the old set unbuilt, which is my personal opinion to leave them unbuilt, but we are talking about what it would be considered and not should you do it.

Another way to think about it is, let's say I have a Scelbi 8h and no ram boards, just the CPU and front panel, even if I use a reproduction DBB, Input and RAM boards it is still a scelbi, just like having an altair and using a modern SRAM board. As long as the "frame" of the unit is original, it's original, but what is the "frame" varies in Vintage computing based upon what the item is. For example an Altair, that is the chassis, for a Scelbi it's the CPU board since that really is the heart of the computer and you could buy a Scelbi in varying degrees of parts or even some of those parts could have been upgraded over time, but if you didn't have that 8008 CPU board, it wouldn't be a Scelbi. Kinda like a Porsche 911 with a Chevy V8. It's still a porsche, just one that purists hate and horsepower nuts love...

You could go on forever with the permutations of this...

Cheers,
Corey
 
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