The lonely Mac

[clh333]

I have multiples of several vendors' machines but only one Apple: a Macintosh Quadra 650. I bought this years ago from a supplier who was moving to more powerful equipment. Over time I added software and peripherals - a Style Writer, for example, and Claris Works - but never really used it for anything. It sat on a desk in a spare bedroom.

Last year with time on my hands I decided to fire it up again and see how it was doing. That's when I learned how to change the backup battery. While I was in there I added more RAM and replaced a sticky FD that didn't want to eject a disk.

I also wanted to add a way to communicate with the outside world. Having a Hayes 9600 modem I got some Hayes faxmodem software but shelved the installation for a later date as there were some adapters missing and the software would not install without the Hayes connected.

Last week while searching for something else I happened to see a Supra fax modem for sale on eBay and purchased it. Last night I tried to install it, and that's the point of this post.

The Supra came with two utilities, one for faxes, one for modem terminal. Each was distributed on 2 3.5-inch disks. Both installations failed but only after copying several files successfully. The error messages said there was a problem with the disk and allowed me to abort. I tried again this morning and each failed at the same place the second time and with the same message.

Well, what about the Hayes software, you ask? Yup, tried that two times as well after the Supra software failed. It too failed, but with a different error message, a "Type 1 disk error" message. Same message at the same place both attempts.

I don't know enough about Macs to know whether I have bad disks, a bad floppy drive or a bigger problem somewhere else in the system. Internet research has been fruitless so I guess I'll have to pester you guys.

Thanks for any help you can give.

-CH-

 

[NeXT]

Best sanity check I find to see if a drive is bad is throw a blank floppy in and format it. If it formats you're good. If it fails, open the metal slider and inspect for a circular mark where the head might of rubbed material off the disk. In that case I either clean the drive and hope for the best or search for another one. I have a number of applications here for macs that have at least one bad disk. Worst of the bunch is the 15 disk Macintosh Japanese Language Kit.

 

[Osgeld]

just a note if you do clean it dont lift up the head's I just killed a mac floppy doing that as the head's "spring" is a thin strip of sheet metal

 

[kyodai]

Before you go on and buy cleaning disks maybe check here if someone is selling one or two (can't hurt to have a spare) 3.5 inch drives. The drives are usually cheaper than a cleaning disk and some members are really nice and sell well maintained tested and working units. The cleaning disks usually cost at least like 10 bucks with shipping on ebay and with a bit of bad luck they don't clean well enough, there is a different error or the drive just dies. If you'd be in Cologne germany I'd come over and gift you a 3.5" drive (or 2 for a beer), but to Ohio shipping would cost like 10 times of what its worth.

 

[clh333]

Thanks to all for their suggestions.

After two failures I did run a cleaning disk in the drive but it did not make a difference; i.e. I got the same errors in the same places.

However, this afternoon I took NeXT's advice and formatted an HD floppy disk. The format was successful, so I'm reasonably certain the drive is OK.

I rummaged through the Finder and found the disk repair utility, which I used to verify and repair each of the offending disks. As far as the utility was concerned everything was as it should be with each of the disks.

This machine had OS 7.? on it when I bought it, and last year when I upped the memory I also upgraded the OS to 8.1, on the advice of the person who sold me the memory. AFAIK everything is OK; the machine boots, reports OS 8.1, runs apps, etc.

But on the hypothesis that this could be a DLL-conflict of sorts, I dug out the installation CD and one of my (two) references, OS 8 For Dummies, which was suggested by a troll on one of the Macintosh boards. Hell, I didn't know you had to install PPP; I figured you install the OS you get the works. Apparently Apple is more mix-and-match.

So with the help of Help and three control panels later (you gotta configure PPP, the modem and TCP/IP) I managed to make the modem call my other line.

Encouraged by my success I tried re-installing the Supra software, which failed in the same way as before. This time OS 8.1 suggested there was something wrong with the install disk and I should run Disk Repair. I did so, and once again all was as it should be as far as the utility is concerned. You don't know who to believe: Apple or Apple?

So the Mac knows how to talk to the modem but doesn't have a term program that I can use to send data or faxes. I guess I could dial up an ISP (do any of them still have dial-up?) but I'll keep looking for a term program to install.

kyodai: If I was in Cologne I would buy you two beers in a heartbeat, and two more for me. Every ten minutes.

Thanks again,

-CH-

 

[GiGaBiTe]

So the Mac knows how to talk to the modem but doesn't have a term program that I can use to send data or faxes. I guess I could dial up an ISP (do any of them still have dial-up?) but I'll keep looking for a term program to install.

Dialup providers have been on the decline since the turn of the century, but they've been really dropping like flies the past 5-6 years.

The only prevalent dialup ISP I know of that still exists is AOL. They have a $7 a month dialup plan:

http://get.aol.com/plans/index.php

I'm not sure if you need their bloatware client to connect though. I've had an account with them since the mid 90s for "when there isn't anything else" coverage, and I've had mixed luck with being able to dial in without the client vs. with the client. I'm not sure that old AOL clients will even still connect to their service, I think the last Mac 68k client was 3.0.

 

[kyodai]

There are still some local dial-up lines in Ohio besides AOL...

https://www.dialup4less.com/ohio.html

http://www.ohio.net/dial-up

Prolly more avialable when you search google a bit. I wouldn't shell out additional money if you already have a DSL connection or similar. Look at my off-topic post about how to become your own Dial-up ISP.

 

[clh333]

I wouldn't shell out additional money if you already have a DSL connection or similar.

Thanks for your suggestions.

I have TWC as my ISP and a cable-modem connection that gets 30 Mb down. The TWC package included cable TV and an IP phone line. The cable modem is a Netgear wireless router / gateway and this computer, an Intel board with i5 running Win7P-64 bit, is connected to it with CAT5 cable. The Win7 has a Winmodem in one of the PCI slots which is connected to the IP phone's modem.

So my plan was to get the Apple, in room A, connected to the POTS and through that to the IP phone in room B, and through that to this Win7 machine, a strategy I have used with other (Commodore) machines in the past. When needed I can run a little BBS server on the Win7 so now I need a term program for the Apple that can handle the uploads and downloads of data. (A previous failed attempt involved a wireless adapter for the Apple; we won't bother to describe that.)

In other words, I can get to the Internet from here; I just need to get to here from the Apple.

Thanks again,

-CH-

 

[olePigeon]

You'd probably do better getting a NuBUS ethernet card. That'll get you on the internet with your existing cable internet.

 

[clh333]

Thank you all for your suggestions.

After a lot of Internet search time I made some progress. I found an adapter for the Quadra, a Farallon AAUI RJ45 Ethernet Transceiver that plugs into the Apple Ethernet port, and I found a term program, ZTERM, with a version that is compatible with OS 8.1. I also had the realization that the Claris Works 4 software bundle that I had already installed had a "communications document" that would drive the modem, as does ZTERM.

I know there are three NuBus slots and one Processor Direct slot on the Q650 board, but I've never seen a NuBus card and don't know anything about the technology. I thought my first foray into NuBus would be a video card, but again lack of familiarity with the hardware and concerns for compatibility make me hesitant to take the plunge.

But I'm a happy camper now that I have a couple of ways to move data in and out of the Mac. Thanks again for your help.

-CH-

 

[NeXT]

I know there are three NuBus slots and one Processor Direct slot on the Q650 board, but I've never seen a NuBus card and don't know anything about the technology.

Designed by MIT, adopted by Texas Instruments and used almost exclusively by Apple until the PCI era. There's tons of cards out there. Search around ebay and you can usually find a network card decently priced at $20-$40. Most of the cards out there work natively with the network driver included with the MacOS, else it's readily available online in the various mac driver archives. Don't worry too much about performance. A 10 megabit card will be fine.

PDS slots on the other hand can not only vary from CPU to CPU but also model ranges (EG: there's the 68030 PDS in the Macintosh IIci and there's the 68030 LC PDS in the Macintosh LC III). You might want to do some research on that slot before you commit to any new purchases.

 

[clh333]

PDS slots on the other hand can not only vary from CPU to CPU but also model ranges

Thanks for your reply. I'm finding it necessary to pay very close attention to the nuances when it comes to Apple hardware and software; this works with this but not with that and only if the other is not installed and only for OS version Y. I'm glad to have the contributions of the VCF as a resource, as information is often difficult to obtain.

And the names for basic services change with every new iteration: AppleTalk, LocalTalk, EtherTalk, TokenTalk, AppleShare, AppleTalk Phase 2, OpenTransport, OpenTransport PPP. (Did I miss anything?) Apple sometimes suffers from acute cuteness.

Not to launch a rant, though; it's an appealing little machine compared to some of the Frankensteins I've built out of PC parts. I've always liked Apple's industrial design sense. The OS is very familiar - only the names are changed to protect the innocent - and an alias is still a shortcut, the command key still functions like the control key, etc. I'm just not very far along the learning curve; down on the bunny slope.

I'll get there eventually. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?

Thanks again,

-CH-

 

[ClassicHasClass]

<pedant>

AppleTalk, LocalTalk, EtherTalk, TokenTalk, AppleShare, AppleTalk Phase 2, OpenTransport, OpenTransport PPP

These are actually all different things, so the differences are a little more than iterative in most cases.

AppleTalk: the general protocol
AppleTalk Phase 2: an enhanced AppleTalk with better multiple network/routing support (almost entirely replaced early AppleTalk, so most of the time AppleTalk == AppleTalk Phase 2)
LocalTalk: AppleTalk over the serial ports (such as with PhoneNET)
EtherTalk: AppleTalk over Ethernet
TokenTalk: AppleTalk over token ring
OpenTransport: STREAMS implementation of network protocols that was designed to supplant MacTCP
OpenTransport PPP: OpenTransport over PPP

But I definitely agree it can be dizzying if you're not already steeped in the culture.
</pedant>

 

[clh333]

I stand corrected. And connected: the Farallon 10-Base-T adapter arrived and after a little experimentation, and using my longest CAT5 cable, I was able to connect to the Internet - sorta. I got through the TCP/IP configuration and pointed the Apple to the cable modem / wireless router that is the home DHCP server and gateway to the Internet. I informed the machine to use Ethernet for its connection and before you know it I was seeing a pitch for the latest iPhone at apple.com.

Unfortunately there have been a few changes to JAVA in the last twenty years or so and most of my screen was filled with Java errors and exceptions. Which leaves me with three questions:

Q1: Is it possible to load a more modern browser onto this OS 8.1 system?

Q2: With Ethernet TCP/IP and modem PPP communication enabled do I need AppleTalk enabled still?

Q3: Nothing to do with Q1 or Q2, but as the machine loads and I get to see the plain grey Mac desktop, along the bottom appear icons for various utilities and applications - speech, for example. Before the desktop with the pretty scenic picture loads these icons, which are shaped like jigsaw-puzzle pieces, disappear for good. What can I do to make them reappear?

Thanks for your assistance.

-CH-

 

[vwestlife]

Q3: Nothing to do with Q1 or Q2, but as the machine loads and I get to see the plain grey Mac desktop, along the bottom appear icons for various utilities and applications - speech, for example. Before the desktop with the pretty scenic picture loads these icons, which are shaped like jigsaw-puzzle pieces, disappear for good. What can I do to make them reappear?

That's the Control Strip. Click on the part of it that remains visible in order to expand it to full size. If it disappears entirely, you can turn it back on in the Control Panel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Strip

 

[NeXT]

Q1: Is it possible to load a more modern browser onto this OS 8.1 system?

I tried a build of Mozilla a while back. It worked but you could totally tell that feature creep was causing a lot of problems and hogged the hell out of the CPU.

Q2: With Ethernet TCP/IP and modem PPP communication enabled do I need AppleTalk enabled still?

You can switch AppleTalk off if you don't need to connect to another mac or use a network printer. TCP/IP and PPP do not rely on AppleTalk to be running in order to enable internet or even LAN access.

 

[clh333]

Thanks for both of your responses.

That's the Control Strip. Click on the part of it that remains visible in order to expand it to full size. If it disappears entirely, you can turn it back on in the Control Panel.

For some reason the OS Help informs me that the software to control the control strip has not been installed. I'm not sure where to find that on the distribution CD but I suppose I'll stumble on it eventually.

On the distro in CD Extras folder were V4 of Netscape, which I installed, and IOMEGA ZIP tools. It took a little experimentation to figure out that the driver had to go into the Extensions subfolder of the System folder and then the machine needed to be rebooted in order to load the driver, before I could use any of the tools. But I attached an old ZIP 100 SCSI disk to the port and am performing an "initialization with surface scan" right now.

I have a USB portable version of this drive that is making the "click of death" while attached to a Win7 machine. I hear that's fatal for the drive but the case is a plastic clamshell and at this point I may see if I can clean it well enough to use it. I have a couple of ATAPI internals as well so its not the end of the world.

I guess you can call it progress...

Thanks again.

-CH-

 

[ClassicHasClass]

I tried a build of Mozilla a while back. It worked but you could totally tell that feature creep was causing a lot of problems and hogged the hell out of the CPU.

On 8.1?? What version was this? The Mozilla builds I know about all require 8.6 and, by extension, a PowerPC CPU.

For that system, I'd probably look at a late build of Netscape (4.08 is the last 68K compatible one, IIRC) or Internet Explorer for Mac (4.0 is the last 68K version). iCab 2.9.9 could also do.

 

[gsteemso]

Q1: Is it possible to load a more modern browser onto this OS 8.1 system?

I use the latest 68k versions of Netscape and of Internet Explorer, as downloadable from the sites “System 7 Today” and “Macintosh Garden,” on my Quadra 840av. I don’t specifically recall the version numbers off of the top of my head, but as far as I could tell when I researched this issue about a year ago, they are the least unusable of a poor lot. The major difficulty preventing someone from compiling a more modern browser engine for 68k Macs (and there are several, among them the fairly drastic evolution of programming languages like C from what the old compilers were written for 20 years ago to what browsers are written in today) is simply that, even if you managed to build the latest and greatest version of Firefox or whatever, it would still be completely unable to connect to any secure servers because no 68k CPU is fast enough at number-crunching to handle modern encryption protocols. Because more and more sites are adopting a policy that they will only accept connections over HTTPS (encrypted HTTP), no matter what, a web browser running standalone on a 68k CPU will never provide a full modern browsing experience. (Admittedly, there have been efforts proposed to facilitate the funneling of such secure connections through a trusted modern machine on your local network, assuming that the users of such a scheme take suitable precautions to keep the unsecured local traffic from the secure proxy to the 68k machine from being spied upon, but as far as I know no such project has ever been completed, nor even seriously worked on.)

Q2: With Ethernet TCP/IP and modem PPP communication enabled do I need AppleTalk enabled still?

Not at all. On “classic” Mac OS, and probably everywhere else as well I would imagine, the chain of software parts that connects you to an AppleTalk network of whatever description is entirely unrelated to and mostly separate from the chain of software parts that connects you to a TCP/IP network like the Internet, even though both sorts of network data can be carried simultaneously over the same cable if that is how you have it configured. (Most of the time, such a setup would involve an Ethernet network, but it could just as easily be any other type that your Mac has suitable drivers for.)

In short, what you do with your AppleTalk settings is more or less completely irrelevant as far as connecting to the Internet is concerned; by all means, feel free to switch it off if you are using neither Mac-native file sharing nor a vintage AppleTalk-connected network printer. (Technically, there was an exception in those few cases, very rarely seen now that Ethernet has become so widespread, where the only kind of physical network interface your Mac can accommodate is serial port LocalTalk / PhoneNet; in such a situation 25 years ago, you would have used what they called “MacIP” to tunnel your IP traffic, hidden inside AppleTalk datagrams, to a suitably configured bridging router such as a Cayman Systems Gatorbox, which would unwrap the tunneled packets and forward the reconstituted IP traffic on to a separate, more normal network—usually IP over Ethernet, at the time.)

Q3: Nothing to do with Q1 or Q2, but as the machine loads and I get to see the plain grey Mac desktop, along the bottom appear icons for various utilities and applications - speech, for example. Before the desktop with the pretty scenic picture loads these icons, which are shaped like jigsaw-puzzle pieces, disappear for good. What can I do to make them reappear?

Those icons which pop up in rows across your boot screen are thrown up there, during startup, by system extensions and control panels—generally found in the “Extensions” and “Control Panels” folders within your “System” folder, respectively (though loose ones at the top level of the System folder will also be loaded afterwards, should any be encountered; that’s a relic of how they were kept in System 6 and earlier and add-ons which install themselves to that location are rarely up-to-date enough on recent changes to the OS to remain stable and compatible). The little pictograms, while informative (especially if the extension in question draws an X across its icon to show that it failed to set itself up for some reason—that’s an extra behaviour added because a specific extension’s developer was feeling helpful, not any kind of inherent feature of extensions in general), are pretty much a decorative gimmick. Nowhere near all extensions or control panels display anything at boot time, and as you observe, the whole mess disappears pretty quickly.

To get an accurate idea of what extensions are actually installed, there are two things you can do. Under newer versions of the classic Mac OS, the System Profiler purports to list them (though I don’t know if it actually checks the running system or just lists the contents of the special folders, and I’m mostly sure it was never available for 68k systems anyway). The best widely available thing you can use is a system-installed control panel called Extensions Manager. Provided the extension that goes with it is installed, you can go directly into this utility at boot time by holding down the space bar when you see the Happy Mac, until its window opens.

There is actually a third option that may be the only one available to you, depending on how old your system software is; before Apple bought and began bundling Extension Manager, it was a third-party product. I _think_ the developers were the very reputable Casady and Greene, who regardless of whether they had anything to do with Extension Manager, definitely later sold a vastly superior alternative called “Conflict Catcher.” If you can track down a copy of that, you will be well positioned to customize your system with the very minimum of misery and frustration caused by conflicting extensions.

 

[yuhong]

I use the latest 68k versions of Netscape and of Internet Explorer, as downloadable from the sites “System 7 Today” and “Macintosh Garden,” on my Quadra 840av. I don’t specifically recall the version numbers off of the top of my head, but as far as I could tell when I researched this issue about a year ago, they are the least unusable of a poor lot. The major difficulty preventing someone from compiling a more modern browser engine for 68k Macs (and there are several, among them the fairly drastic evolution of programming languages like C from what the old compilers were written for 20 years ago to what browsers are written in today) is simply that, even if you managed to build the latest and greatest version of Firefox or whatever, it would still be completely unable to connect to any secure servers because no 68k CPU is fast enough at number-crunching to handle modern encryption protocols. Because more and more sites are adopting a policy that they will only accept connections over HTTPS (encrypted HTTP), no matter what, a web browser running standalone on a 68k CPU will never provide a full modern browsing experience. (Admittedly, there have been efforts proposed to facilitate the funneling of such secure connections through a trusted modern machine on your local network, assuming that the users of such a scheme take suitable precautions to keep the unsecured local traffic from the secure proxy to the 68k machine from being spied upon, but as far as I know no such project has ever been completed, nor even seriously worked on.)

I think the last browser that was close to usable was non export versions of Netscape 4.08, and it was usable (though not with every modern certificate, I think the problem is probably X.509 UTF8String not being supported) until sites disabled SSLv3 and moved to SHA2 certificates.