Are computer museums 'bad'?

[falter]

Just branching off as something interesting came up in my previous thread - I was seeing sentiments to the effect that museums wouldn't really be the ideal place for something like my Mark-8 to be resident at - since it likely would be stored out of sight and mind.

So just another opinion question for talking sake, but also for estate planning purposes -- and I know some folks here work in/with museums -- are museums a good or bad place for your eventually former vintage computers?

I've thought about this on and off. As I see it, the (perceived) pros of sending stuff to a museum are:

- Security: it'll have a stable, well funded home and not be lost to recycling or such.
- Accessibility: more people will see it
- Research: it'll be available for research purposes

Cons:

- Accessibility: Especially if it ends up in the museum's storage, not seen in public ever again.
- Interactivity: Most museums I've been to do not allow you to directly interact with artifacts, preferring static, hands off displays
- Security: as we saw with Living Computer Museum, even backing by a late tech billionaire is no guarantee of stability/survival

Not to say all museums are created equal; I have seen some small, privately owned museums that feature 'living' displays and allow interaction (LCM seems to have been the exception among larger museums). But private museums are private, and I have issues with the notion that contributing to one is just helping someone fatten their own collection of toys.

I will say the research end of things definitely makes me favorable to big public/non profit museums like CHM. Getting measurements for my TVT replica was amazing. However, on the down side, CHM and other museums often have things bolted down, and don't show you the interesting bits. We can only see the outside of Don's TVT for example - the boards, the actual machine itself, is more or less permanently obscured from view, and it likely will never be seen to operate again, like many things on static display.

And yeah, I've seen photos of museum storehouses.. stacks and stacks of rarish machines like the Sol-20, Altair, etc.. machines that likely will just sit there instead of being restored and loved and used by private owners.

What do you guys think?

 

[Caluser2000]

I wouldn't give a hoot if I was dead

 

[modem7]

But private museums are private, and I have issues with the notion that contributing to one is just helping someone fatten their own collection of toys.

Kind of a retirement fund.

I know that this subject has been discussed before somewhere in these forums.

 

[Plasma]

I've never been to a computer museum and probably never will. Not that interested in seeing something in a glass case.

I am far more interested in seeing videos on youtube where a system is demonstrated, taken apart, etc. Especially when it's done by an expert and they go into detail about various things.

 

[krebizfan]

Many of the museums do demonstrate operations and show repair work. The machines are a bit too fragile to just have anyone trying to operate directly.

I admit that auction house flipper that included the word museum in the web moniker rather soured me on just trusting a museum to be attempting to be an actual museum.

 

[VileR]

I've never been to a computer museum and probably never will. Not that interested in seeing something in a glass case.

I've been to one here, because it was advertised as something more than that, but yeah- it ended up being just a collection of machines in glass cases lined up along the hallways of a university building. If your only interest is the history of industrial design for consumer electronics, that may be your thing, but for me it was a disappointing waste of time. Apparently there was a specific room where a select few exhibits can be operated, but it's always under lock and key as there's no staff on hand or even in the vicinity, and you have to book an appointment well in advance (which they didn't go out of their way to point out).

I suppose places like this are good homes for machines that look fine externally, but are hopelessly FUBAR. Or even just gutted/empty cases.

 

[Gary C]

Interesting question

Of course it depends. Not only on the equipment, but the museum.

Ours is hands on. We don't put many machines in glass cases (only have my Apple 1 replica, a ZX80 and some Playstation/Nintendo development machines) in a case. As many working machines as we can muster are laid out for people to use and enjoy.

Its really at the heart of the museum.

Of course that may make my life a misery in trying to keep them up and running and we also seem to have 'lost' an irreplaceable Fairchild Grandstand controller but overall people really enjoy getting their hands on

NORTHWEST COMPUTER MUSEUM: All You Need to Know BEFORE You Go (with Photos)

www.tripadvisor.co.uk

Its also a focal point for donations. While prices are going up and people are taking advantage, many still are throwing them away. We take donations of course and yes because its not a public owned business, the owners 'benefit' from donations but it helps us maintain what we have. We will sell some restored machines as time passes and will look to collect more interesting machines from the profits but costs of renting and powering a place big enough to give a meaning full display aren't cheap.

So overall I would say good thing, but not if everything has to remain in a glass case.

PS, Joe has finally given me my repair space and once I stop having to work everyday I do want to engage people in the repair & maintenance of old machines.

 

[g4ugm]

Lots of museums with hands on displays in the UK. Joe'e as mentioned above, I have also visited these

Retro Computer Museum

retrocomputermuseum.co.uk

and the center for computer are pretty hands on

https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/

and there are more. TNMOC has a mix, some hands on, some in cases.

 

[VERAULT]

look at the story of the wooden PET prototype. It was stolen while Commodore was going through a leadership chsnge and then found its way to a museum where its cataloged and never allowd to be powered up or worked on. Or have its roms backed up.. how ks thst helpful to anyone? A museum which keeps them running and where they are at least periodically used is great.. locked away... well then who the heck cares at that point.

 

[falter]

Interesting question

Of course it depends. Not only on the equipment, but the museum.

Ours is hands on. We don't put many machines in glass cases (only have my Apple 1 replica, a ZX80 and some Playstation/Nintendo development machines) in a case. As many working machines as we can muster are laid out for people to use and enjoy.

Its really at the heart of the museum.

Of course that may make my life a misery in trying to keep them up and running and we also seem to have 'lost' an irreplaceable Fairchild Grandstand controller but overall people really enjoy getting their hands on

NORTHWEST COMPUTER MUSEUM: All You Need to Know BEFORE You Go (with Photos)

www.tripadvisor.co.uk

Its also a focal point for donations. While prices are going up and people are taking advantage, many still are throwing them away. We take donations of course and yes because its not a public owned business, the owners 'benefit' from donations but it helps us maintain what we have. We will sell some restored machines as time passes and will look to collect more interesting machines from the profits but costs of renting and powering a place big enough to give a meaning full display aren't cheap.

So overall I would say good thing, but not if everything has to remain in a glass case.

PS, Joe has finally given me my repair space and once I stop having to work everyday I do want to engage people in the repair & maintenance of old machines.

That's what I like to see. The things you have in storage, do you rotate them out to the floor much?

 

[falter]

look at the story of the wooden PET prototype. It was stolen while Commodore was going through a leadership chsnge and then found its way to a museum where its cataloged and never allowd to be powered up or worked on. Or have its roms backed up.. how ks thst helpful to anyone? A museum which keeps them running and where they are at least periodically used is great.. locked away... well then who the heck cares at that point.

That's kind of where I'm at. I mean I get it.. you might not want to risk blowing up a prototype, or having too many hands on it.. but I would think most serious museums would have people with the knowhow to safely attempt it. Even just to capture some video of the attempt and result for posterity. It'd also be amazing if we could see inside the device.. a case is just a case. It's the PCBs and components that make the device what it is.

 

[whartung]

Every museum in the world pretty much has stuff "in the back" that they can not display for any of a wide range of reasons. Space, security, suitability for display, having the collateral for the display (plaques, descriptions, etc.).

Just imagine the things that the Smithsonian has stored away in that warehouse where the Lost Ark was parked.

But here's the thing. Things stored by the museum are more likely to be maintained somewhat in a state of preservation, rather than shoved in the corner of some garage with a friendly rodent population setting up residence.

I'm sure many folks here have stuff in boxes, on shelves, stacked up with God knows what piled upon it. I don't know if "See that white plastic corner thing in the back underneath that towel with the Word Pro documents stacked on top? That's an original VIC-20!" counts as "on display".

The important thing, if you care about the items in your collection, is that you get them into the hands of someone who has a similar passion and willing to take on the responsibility of holding on to these things. Otherwise, they're destined for parting out on eBay, or, more likely, in a landfill somewhere.

Preservation has value beyond "on display". The simple truth is that if something is preserved, it has a later chance of being put on display. The stuff in a landfill, however, does not.

 

[bladamson]

I guess museums perform an important function, but like with gun collecting I suspect that I'd prefer to see private ownership of old computing hardware.

Places like the living computer museum, where the hardware is available for use to the public, I don't have so much of a beef with. But usually when something goes to a museum, it becomes an artifact. Rather than being used, it is preserved. And until the museum sells it back into a private collection somewhere, it just gets put in a storage room somewhere in a dark basement, maybe exhibited occasionally for the public to look but not touch, and doesn't really get to be enjoyed by anyone. In contrast, I suspect that old computers in private collections, much like old guns, are instead loved by their owners and actually used and enjoyed rather than being locked away in a vault somewhere. And things in private collections get *maintained* rather than just preserved. By that I mean, broken components get replaced, and the machine kept in working order. A museum will usually just try to preserve something in the state it existed in when it was acquired.

Nothing against museums or anything. They serve an important function in preserving priceless cultural artifacts. But other than that..... I think private collections are better.

 

[stepleton]

For the time being, I think that a machine in careful and well-intentioned private hands will probably have a life that's not too far off from what it would find in a museum collection.

In a few centuries (ignoring existential risks), my bet is that the 20th-century computers that most people encounter will have been museum pieces for a long time. Those used for most scholarship will be the ones that were archived rigorously, at places like CHM.

As an aside, I'd love to have to chance to hear what people in 2523 get wrong about what computing in the 1980s was like (among other things).

 

[CommodoreZ]

In terms of interactivity, I've noticed many computer museums I've visited tend to do alright. I certainly think they're a "good thing" and I would much rather these than everything being in private hands.

Computer History Museum is mostly behind glass, but they're also giving you a very broad scope and general public focus on the entirety of the history of computing, with a greater breadth of artifacts on display than many other museums. Otherwise, you gotta wait for the PDP-1 or 1401 demos, and the very specific interaction they have available.
Large Scale Systems Museum has the hands-on factor for working and connected equipment. My visit last fall resulted in trying out a few terminals on a beefed up PDP-11/t55.
VCFed's museum as far as I'm aware will fire up most anything on display if you ask. For the really special items that need a little help, you have to wait for the right expert to be in to help out.
System Source Computer Museum has plenty of things to interact with, but also plenty of things still undergoing repair or not in a complete setup.
While I never visited the Living Computer Museum, I'm told from friends that did visit that they had the hands-on factor pretty well covered.

What else is out there that y'all have been to? I know I've got plenty more I'd like to see in the future, as my experiences with the above museums have been stellar, and I always have a good time.

 

[Chuck(G)]

Dunno, although it isn't a "Computer Museum", this place really impressed me when I visited.

 

[mountainking]

I would hate to think of a world without museums, they are so important to the preservation of the history of mankind, but they are not perfect and they are not always the ideal place for artifacts. They ARE generally a safe place to store artifacts as the museum staff will know how to preserve items so that they won't age prematurely, so to speak but they do have cons. That being said, a museum is not going to do much with any particular item beyond keeping them safe and accessible, they are not likely going to make a video/documentary will tons of general information as well as specific on the particular item with detailed images that will be seen by thousands of people.

I think you, Brad, are much more than a collector, you are a self taught, freelance vintage computer historian (without the paperwork to prove it so having such an important artifact in your possession is in many way like having it in the hands of museum, even better than having it in the hands of a museum in some ways, I think. I have learned a huge amount about the early days of the personal computer from watching your videos, as have many others, so I think people like you play a role similar to what museums play when it comes to the teaching about and the preservation (in a variety of way) of these artifacts. And besides, eventually your collection will probably end up in a museum, and likely in working order with documentation of the restoration, which I think will make it more likely for a museum to display it and possible allow interaction with it. The last thing I will say is this. Remember when you are thinking about doing something to a rare piece like this to not to think of it like a collector or a seller who knows that the more untouch, unaltered a piece is the more money it will bring and the more valuable it will be to another collector, that's not how a museum would think of it, while they also would prefer things to by untouched and unaltered but they know that doing so doesn't necessarily damage it's history or it's value as a rare artifact, know what I'm saying?

 

[Gary C]

That's what I like to see. The things you have in storage, do you rotate them out to the floor much?

Not yet, its only just been moved to Mill 2 so we could open the VR suite but we need to go through it step by step, sell on what we dont need and bring everything we can into the Museum. We dont really want stuff in storage but it might take a few years.

 

[syzygy]

There is an awful lot to discuss on the topic and I don't want to write a book here, but...Museums, including computer museums are not just good, they are, in my opinion, great. Nevertheless, the OP makes some points in the "con" list.

Cons:

- Accessibility: Especially if it ends up in the museum's storage, not seen in public ever again.
- Interactivity: Most museums I've been to do not allow you to directly interact with artifacts, preferring static, hands off displays
- Security: as we saw with Living Computer Museum, even backing by a late tech billionaire is no guarantee of stability/survival

I will certainly stipulate the point on security.

On Accessibility and Interactivity: I have visited the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, a type of museum. I was impressed with how interactive it was. There was film / pictures / stories everywhere. Pretty much every room had sets of headphones. No, I couldn't play one of Hendrix's guitars (musicians everywhere are thankful for that), but there was a whole lot to do, not just see.

I visited a dinky little computer 'museum' in San Antonio ~ 10-12 years ago...we were attending a convention and we just had some free time. They had a few things there, nothing terribly impressive (by the standards of the personal collections on here) and for most of it, they were fine if you sat down and experienced them first hand. I don't even remember if there was a charge but if there was, it was very inexpensive. We had fun.

My point is museums are not all the same and communities are adapting to all kinds of approaches.

Then, I looked at what the Smithsonian might have online about the Mark 8 and, not surprising, they have this beauty...and you may notice that it says "Currently not on view". Ok, I get that. Then I browsed some links and found this course. Pretty cool and I don't know squat about the Mark 8. So, imagine a course that is taught in a brick & mortar school and at some point, students are presented with a Mark 8 to experience the real thing (e.g., write and run a program). Very cool....and someone has to donate that Mark 8...and someone has to curate it and make it all happen.

I think that museums can be archival in nature and that is a very good thing. Yet, they don't have to just be storage facilities where, except for special exhibitions, hide away all that good stuff. They can also achieve a level of sharing (accessibility) that is quite admirable. Mind you, I don't have the skills, knowledge and abilities to pull something like that off - but I appreciate it when I see it.

 

[falter]

There is an awful lot to discuss on the topic and I don't want to write a book here, but...Museums, including computer museums are not just good, they are, in my opinion, great. Nevertheless, the OP makes some points in the "con" list.



I will certainly stipulate the point on security.

On Accessibility and Interactivity: I have visited the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, a type of museum. I was impressed with how interactive it was. There was film / pictures / stories everywhere. Pretty much every room had sets of headphones. No, I couldn't play one of Hendrix's guitars (musicians everywhere are thankful for that), but there was a whole lot to do, not just see.

I visited a dinky little computer 'museum' in San Antonio ~ 10-12 years ago...we were attending a convention and we just had some free time. They had a few things there, nothing terribly impressive (by the standards of the personal collections on here) and for most of it, they were fine if you sat down and experienced them first hand. I don't even remember if there was a charge but if there was, it was very inexpensive. We had fun.

My point is museums are not all the same and communities are adapting to all kinds of approaches.

Then, I looked at what the Smithsonian might have online about the Mark 8 and, not surprising, they have this beauty...and you may notice that it says "Currently not on view". Ok, I get that. Then I browsed some links and found this course. Pretty cool and I don't know squat about the Mark 8. So, imagine a course that is taught in a brick & mortar school and at some point, students are presented with a Mark 8 to experience the real thing (e.g., write and run a program). Very cool....and someone has to donate that Mark 8...and someone has to curate it and make it all happen.

I think that museums can be archival in nature and that is a very good thing. Yet, they don't have to just be storage facilities where, except for special exhibitions, hide away all that good stuff. They can also achieve a level of sharing (accessibility) that is quite admirable. Mind you, I don't have the skills, knowledge and abilities to pull something like that off - but I appreciate it when I see it.

That unit kind of looks like the cover unit from RE, except the colors look a bit different. Nice all the same!