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BA11-F side panel dimension and alignment

pbirkel

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Location
Silver Spring, MD, USA
The BA11-F chassis uses a side panel (rather than a top cover, given its orientation) to cover the modules in order to complete a four-sided air plenum. It appears that there was both a hinged-style panel that is permanently fastened at the rear (three bolts attaching a narrow plate that mounts a vertical piano-hinge) which has two quick-release attachments in the front, and then a plate-style that simply has two quick-release attachment points at the rear (and then again in the front) - like this:

BA11-F Side Panel Fasteners.jpg

These side panels seem to be often removed and then lost. I certainly can't seem to find a photo of one still in place!

Although the fore-n-aft dimension for the panel is clear from inspection of the chassis, the top-to-bottom dimension is unclear given the positioning of the circuit board ejection-levers. I would like to determine the top-to-bottom dimension of the panel as well as determine if the panel is vertically-centered WRT to the two front fasteners. A good photo would be sufficient although some measurements would be ideal.
 
I am not sure that I have an BA11-F with a hinged side panel, but both 11/70 machine and my 11/35 in BA11-F *do* have the side panel that mounts using 4 quarterturn screws.
I can measure the distance between the holes and take a picture of such cover. The cover is not a simple flat plate like the top cover of the BA11-K box, which is a simple plate with two 90° side "strips".
In https://manx-docs.org/collections/antonio/arc-db/EK-BA11F-IP-003.pdf page 5 (PDF page 7) you can see the shape of the side panel.
 
Thank you. So that version folds the piano hinge under the panel and the panel appears itself to be flat. That's consistent with the IPL hinge-related inset for the BA11F-02. It's also barely taller than the outermost mounting holes of the hinge. The combined thicknesses of the two sides of the piano hinge give some offset from the chassis frame in the rear. I presume that there is a corresponding offset at the front, perhaps by a metal foldover of the panel itself or an applied stiffener. In order to clear the plastic handles of a M9202 it seems to me that a 3/16" offset is required at both ends.

I did find the following on page 12 of "BA11-F_RevN_Engineering_Drawings_Mar76.pdf", which may** correspond to the BA11F-02 design; I've circled one of the two front quick-release fasteners which appears to be a spring-loaded thumb-screw in a short tube presumably staked to the panel. It appears as if there is a short bend along the top & bottom edges as well as a more significant one at the front edge. The top and bottom bends appear to fully overlap the ejector engagements with the chassis which is NOT consistent with the photo which clearly shows the panel ending instead somewhere along the ejector handle of a seated module. So I'm not sure how accurate this mechanical drawing is WRT the final sheet metal. IMO it's more illustrative than production-ready (note the differing shapes of the heads of the fasteners).

1782895465516.png1782896095171.png
** note that page 5 of the FMPS lists all eight variations which seems to instead align with the BA11F-05 below, however page 9 clearly shows three holes in the side panel to the rear that affix the piano hinge.

It appears as if this hinged design was the original intent and used with the 11/40 and 11/45 in early production, but (ahem) user feedback pointed out how inconvenient in practice it was to have that long panel sticking out of the side of the rack. (Although one certainly can't lose the panel!)
I am not sure that I have an BA11-F with a hinged side panel, but both 11/70 machine and my 11/35 in BA11-F *do* have the side panel that mounts using 4 quarterturn screws. I can measure the distance between the holes and take a picture of such cover.
Thank you. Take several photos if you can. Inquiring minds are ... a bit confused.
The cover is not a simple flat plate like the top cover of the BA11-K box, which is a simple plate with two 90° side "strips".
In https://manx-docs.org/collections/antonio/arc-db/EK-BA11F-IP-003.pdf page 5 (PDF page 7) you can see the shape of the side panel.
So hmm. There's a different designation (BA11F-05) for this configuration and it appears to be a redesign that applied throughout in-production BA11F units including now the 11/70. The side panel design reminds me of the top panel on the BA11-A with the multi-bend stiffening; is it aluminum? The height is still barely taller than the retention fastener positions so while the multi-bends add stiffening they more significantly add obstacle avoidance for plastic-handled modules. Note that the panel now appears to extend significantly forward and rearward of the quick-release fasteners and thus appears to extend beyond the chassis in both cases. Again I'm uncertain how much faith to put in the illustration. I'd be much happier with the illustration if the panel were rotated 90 degrees so that the flat surfaces currently across the top-bottom were instead along the front-back where they would mate nicely with the chassis faces, and then the simple front-back bends were instead at top-bottom where they would more-or-less seal with the chassis past the module ejection slots.
 
The hinged one on our 11/40 is 14.25" x 23" measured with my phone.
Thank you! Scaling those dimensions to the known 24" front-to-back length results in a height of ~14.87" or 14 7/8" tall. I see that there's a simple lip-offset on the right to align with the thickness of the piano hinge when folded, and the pivot portion of the piano hinge is located just beyond both the rear chassis face and the left end of the panel.

Modern piano hinges appear to vary in leaf thickness; the "heavy duty" ones appear to be 0.06” thick (example: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09KGNX594) -- that's the thickness of a 16 gauge steel sheet. (There are much heavier ones for industrial settings!) You have a pair of M9202 nestled behind the panel (as expected) which I measure to require at least a 3/16" offset.

Assuming that the leaves do fully oppose when closed then that would give only a 0.12" (1/8") offset. However it appears that the design of these hinges is such that when closed the opposing leaf faces do not meet and the actual closed thickness is that of two leaves plus that of the pivot pin; example:

1782976775329.png

The piano hinge seen in your photo seems to be similarly designed. To my eye in the photo above the separation of the leaves (diameter of the pivot pin) appears to be at least twice the thickness of either leaf so the total offset appears to be 1/4", or a bit more. Note that https://shiresoft.com/pdp-11/11-45/backplane.jpg that @Bitly pointed out shows that some gap between the faces is required in order to accommodate rivet heads in the panel fastenings and the three fastener heads (pan head bolts?) attaching the hinge to the chassis. Note that all three chassis-fastener heads oppose three of the panel fastening rivets so these two thicknesses would be additive. 8-32 and 6-32 UNC pan head bolts dimension like this:

1782978426890.png
1782979162997.png
After accounting for an opposing rivet head a leaf-spacing of 0.12" appears to be an underestimate given that 5/32" diameter (Trade Size 5) aluminum pop rivets have a head height of 0.050" (head diameter = 0.312"; hole size = 0.160 - 0.164") -- dimensions for steel pop rivets are probably a bit different. Therefore a combined-fastener leaf spacing of 0.165" or 0.147" would be required depending on the bolt size. This dimension is significant since it affects the ability of the hinge to close completely. In a re-creation one might need to fiddle with the fasteners, perhaps having to grind down the top of the pan-head a bit or substitute a rivet.

A total offset of 1/4" would provide a bit of clearance over the M9202 handles, or at least not end up with the panel bowed to accommodate any misalignment of backplane, chassis, and panel WRT each other. The front lip would need to obtain a comparable offset.

I also see that the quarter-turn fasteners appear to be pan-head sitting more-or-less flush to the outer panel face rather than the elevated spring-loaded types illustrated on page 12 of "BA11-F_RevN_Engineering_Drawings_Mar76.pdf".
 
I also see that the quarter-turn fasteners appear to be pan-head sitting more-or-less flush to the outer panel face rather than the elevated spring-loaded types illustrated on page 12 of "BA11-F_RevN_Engineering_Drawings_Mar76.pdf".
Retained quarter-turn panel fasteners are a problem. McMaster-Carr lists "Rounded Head Quarter-Turn Captive Panel Screws with Rivet-Mount Nut" fasteners here: https://www.mcmaster.com/products/quarter-turn-fasteners/ Example:

1782980301547.png
"Rivet-mount nuts can be riveted into thin panels for a flush fit. They can be mounted without spaces between the panels. A quarter-turn locks and releases access panels, doors, and covers. The screw is held to the outer panel by a retainer. Rivets not included. Install with 3/32" rivets in steel and 1/8" rivets in plastic. Length is measured from under the screw head."

1782980918440.png

Has anyone explored this path to deal with missing DEC hardware?

"DZUS" seems to be well-known branding term for a similar style as used for fastening motorcycle cowlings. I wonder if those would fit the existing BA11-F receptacles that are riveted to the chassis.
 
Took pictures and used a ruler with "inches" indication.
The distance between the mounting holes are:
- horizontally: 23 1/4"
- vertically: 14"

The dimensions of the cover plate are horizontally 23 7/8" and vertically 16 1/2"
Note that the cover plate covers the board ejection handles.
 

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Thank you! So the IPL diagram has the panel incorrectly rotated by 90 degrees; oops! And I see that it's the usual steel, not aluminum as with the BA11-A.

Did you measure the depth of the panel at any point? For example the height of the top/bottom lips along their inside or outside? Similarly for the front/back flanges from face (against chassis) to inside-panel or outside-panel? Panel thickness (I'm guessing 16 gauge)?
 
I will take all the measurements you indicate of the cover panel.

BTW, the top cover of the BA11-K is made of steel (at least it is on several 11/34, 11/04 and expansion boxes here), whereas the cover for the BA11-F (on the 2 11/70 and on the 3 11/40 that I have) is made from aluminium.
 
Thank you. I guess that in this case "seeing is deceiving" for me as I was thinking that your photos were of a steel panel. Please try to get a thickness measurement on the front or rear aluminum flanges. It seems that aluminum sheet is a bit thinner for "16 gauge" than for steel -- 0.0508 inches (1.29 millimeters) vs. 0.0598 inches (1.52 millimeters) thick. I checked a BA11-A cover (also bent along four sides similar to your BA11-F side panel) and I am measuring 1.31mm thick.

So perhaps the earlier hinged-panel is steel, and then DEC switched to aluminum in the later four-point attachment panel -- and all of your BA11-F use the four-point attachment panel (above "I am not sure that I have an BA11-F with a hinged side panel")?
 
Some more measurements.
The thickness of the aluminum plate is 1.7 mm
Outside width : 23 7/8"
Outside height : 16 1/2" + thickness plate

Horizontal folded edge : outside 6.3 mm , inside 4.6 mm
Vertical folded edge : height 6.4 mm , inside 4.4 mm

Inside bent edge : horizontal 22 3/8" , vertical 16 3/8"

Width of the side with the four 1/4 turn screws : inside 18 mm , outside 16.3 mm

On the inside is a small paper label glued with the following text :
6 12 80
74 12585

Height bent edge with 1/4 turn screws : vertical 15 1/2"
small removed corner at both ends 11.3 mm

I can image that some dimensions are not clear. If needed, I can try to make a drawing with those dimensions, but that will take time.
Also note, some dimensions are in inches, others are in millimeters.
 
Thank you! I'm going to try to turn these dimensions into a CAD design and price a panel at https://sendcutsend.com/

I've fiddled a bit with working up a CAD model for the 11/20 covers but haven't been sure whether I correctly understand the dimensional management of bends, and that's a situation where the dimensions have to be "just so" since the cover lips need to closely fit (slide over) over the chassis sides.

The BA11-F side panel is simply flush-mated with the four sides of the chassis and as a practical matter the upper and lower lip probably shouldn't try to be a tight fit.

Some more measurements.
The thickness of the aluminum plate is 1.7 mm
Outside width : 23 7/8"
Outside height : 16 1/2" + thickness plate
1.7mm = 0.067"
1/16" = 0.625"
How does the thickness of the plate fit here in the outside height?
The vertical dimensions seem to be 16 3/8" inside (stated below) plus upper-lip thickness 1/16" plus lower-lip thickness 1/16" = 16 1/2" outside.
Horizontal folded edge : outside 6.3 mm , inside 4.6 mm
Vertical folded edge : height 6.4 mm , inside 4.4 mm
In the second case I would have expected an inside dimension of 4.7mm given a height of 6.4mm

4.7mm = 0.185"
4.6mm = 0.181"
4.4mm = 0.173"
3/16" = 0.1875"

Did you happen to notice how snugly the panel sits against any plastic module handles? It seems like the panel must be a very snug fit, sufficient to not only contact but also to press firmly against the module handles when the quarter-turn fasteners are closed. I was thinking that it might be a bit looser, which is why I estimated 1/4" in an earlier post. Your measurements indicate something a bit less than 3/16".
Inside bent edge : horizontal 22 3/8" , vertical 16 3/8"

Width of the side with the four 1/4 turn screws : inside 18 mm , outside 16.3 mm
Here I assume that "inside" means along the face that fits against the chassis, rather than inside the bend.

18mm = 0.71"
3/4" = 0.75"
19mm = 0.748"

The horizontal dimensions seem to be 22 3/8" inside plus rear-flange width 7/8" plus front-flange width 7/8" = 23 7/8".
This calculation assumes that the two flange-widths are 19mm rather than 18mm. Else perhaps the inside should be 22 1/2".

None of these three dimensions is critical as they result in a sliding fit to the chassis. The critical dimension would be the separation between the rear and front fastener centers. I'll multi-check that on a BA11-F chassis.

On the inside is a small paper label glued with the following text :
6 12 80
74 12585
The upper line appears to be a manufacturing date; the lower line appears to correspond to the "DWG NO./PART NO." of E-MD-7412585-0-0 "COVER, LEFT SIDE" on page 14 of "BA11-F_RevN_Engineering_Drawings_Mar76.pdf".
Height bent edge with 1/4 turn screws : vertical 15 1/2"
small removed corner at both ends 11.3 mm
11.3mm = 0.445"
7/16" = 0.4375"
1/2" = 0.50"

The vertical dimensions of the front and rear flanges seem to be 15 1/2" plus upper corner height 1/2" plus lower corner height 1/2" = 16 1/2".
This calculation assumes that the two corner heights are 12.7mm rather than 11.3mm. Perhaps the 11.3mm was measured to the inside of the horizontal lip rather than the outside? The height of the corner isn't a critical dimension. The critical dimension would be the vertical positioning of the fasteners and their spacing. I'll multi-check that on a BA11-F chassis.

In the absence of any "THIS END UP/FORWARD" markings (: I assume that the panel is completely symmetrical.
 
Hi Paul,
I took the smaller dimensions with a caliper which only shows [mm].
in case you want to fabricate the panel for the BA11-F box, I can make a simple drawing (not CAD, I never learned that) with dimensions It will take a bit longer, because the drawing is done at work and I only work on Tuesday and Thursday. That will probably be more clear than just the dimensions given in my previous reply.

I will try to check how snugly the panel sits against the module. The handles of the hex modules are visible, the maroon handles of the smaller module may be a bit tricky, but I can check how far the maroon handles "protrude", compared to the metal bar of the hex modules. As the cover is made of aluminium, you can push it in the middle, so I can get an idea how close the panel is tho thehex modules, and thus the plastic handles of the maroon modules. Putting the cover on the box never did give me the impression that the cover "touches" the modules. The quarter-turn fasteners does not move the cover in any way "closer", because the (vertical) panel edges already rest on the metal box.

Yes, the panel is almost symmetrical with a tolerance of say 0.5 mm (neglectible). Thus i can be mounted in one way or 180° rotated.

BTW, you wrote "I've fiddled a bit with working up a CAD model for the 11/20 covers" ... yes, when I bend a metal plate, I always worry whether I got it right. I know, you have to account for the thickness of the plate, but still ...
 
Hi Paul,
I took the smaller dimensions with a caliper which only shows [mm].
No problem. My expectation is that the as-designed dimensions from DEC were in fractional Imperial units so in my reverse engineering I convert your measurements back to multiples of 1/16" as, I think, a reasonable basis for cross-checking sums and differences in the various directions.
in case you want to fabricate the panel for the BA11-F box, I can make a simple drawing (not CAD, I never learned that) with dimensions It will take a bit longer, because the drawing is done at work and I only work on Tuesday and Thursday. That will probably be more clear than just the dimensions given in my previous reply.
If my sums and differences above seem wrong to you then please do put together a simple drawing pointing out where I am misunderstanding!
I will try to check how snugly the panel sits against the module. The handles of the hex modules are visible, the maroon handles of the smaller module may be a bit tricky, but I can check how far the maroon handles "protrude", compared to the metal bar of the hex modules. As the cover is made of aluminium, you can push it in the middle, so I can get an idea how close the panel is to the hex modules, and thus the plastic handles of the maroon modules. Putting the cover on the box never did give me the impression that the cover "touches" the modules. The quarter-turn fasteners does not move the cover in any way "closer", because the (vertical) panel edges already rest on the metal box.
I think that you've already considered the practical consequences here, but see my analysis below. My attempt to come up with a dimension in that direction must be incorrect -- perhaps the reference module that I am using is a bit tall? I'll experiment more as this dimension affects how the upper/lower lips are designed given SendCutSend bend constraints.
Yes, the panel is almost symmetrical with a tolerance of say 0.5 mm (neglectible). Thus i can be mounted in one way or 180° rotated.

BTW, you wrote "I've fiddled a bit with working up a CAD model for the 11/20 covers" ... yes, when I bend a metal plate, I always worry whether I got it right. I know, you have to account for the thickness of the plate, but still ...
SendCutSend has detailed instructions and a calculator (https://sendcutsend.com/bending-calculator/), starting from specific characteristics of the sheet material chosen which produces quite precise modified dimensions ... hopefully they are also _accurate_ :-}. They specify +/- .005" tolerance on the cuts; for other tolerances see: https://sendcutsend.com/faq/what-are-your-tolerances-for-bending/

For aluminum (https://sendcutsend.com/materials/5052-aluminum/) I'd design using either the 0.063" (1.60mm) sheet, slightly thinner than your measurement, or 0.080" (2.03mm). Based on some other experimentation these two choices might actually price out the same or quite closely. All things considered I'm inclined towards the thicker sheet to improve rigidity where the fasteners are attached.

Their bending brake requires a minimum of 0.25" (6.35mm) on tabs, which is more than the 4.7mm = 0.185" that seems to be your measured dimension for the upper/lower lips. In my limited experience with bending brakes BITD I don't see how such short upper/lower lips would have been formed without an additional step to cut off excess lip. I'm therefore contemplating treating the upper/lower lips as being double-bent but with minimal flanges of 0.25" (6.35mm) -- like those at the front/rear but narrower -- that would reach towards the edge of the slot-numbering sticker.

1784098734236.png

One could bend the lips *up* rather than down, leaving an air gap but still creating the stiffener, and accepting that the stiffener will protrude outwards by 0.25" (6.35mm). AFAICS that doesn't result in a clearance conflict with the rack posts although it's a bit close; I measure that gap as 7/16" (0.4375"). Having only 3/16" of clearance is probably not the best design decision in this location.

Rather than a double-bend one could simply angle the minimum 0.25" (6.35mm) tab at, say, 30 or 45 degrees outwards ... which would be a bit less stiffening but IMO stiffness isn't a critical consideration here. If getting the inside of the panel closer to the module handles is important then to me this seems to be the best approach to managing the minimum tab dimension requirement at the top/bottom edge of the panel. What do you think?

Or one could accept the slightly higher 1/4" vs. 3/16" dimension; I guess some "push in" distance is acceptable here (you state "As the cover is made of aluminium, you can push it in the middle, so I can get an idea how close the panel is to the hex modules, and thus the plastic handles of the maroon modules.").

I can't see any real harm in a potentially extra 1/16" of clearance between the inside-panel and handle-tops. It's insufficient to allow for modules to become misaligned and it doesn't significantly affect the clearance to the rack posts.

AFAICS the closely-spaced double bend at the rear/front of the panel is allowable but I can't be sure of that without submitting a completed design and seeing whether errors are raised.
 
I can push the cover (in the center) in for I guess 1 millimeter, before the cover touches the metal handles.
Attached is my dimensions drawing. Hope this is helpful.
It is a .png but if you have Visio, I can mail the .vsdx file as well.
 

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I can push the cover (in the center) in for I guess 1 millimeter, before the cover touches the metal handles.
Thank you for the pressure test.
Attached is my dimensions drawing. Hope this is helpful.
It is, thank you. Nice job! I see that you increased the panel thickness (K) to 2mm; is that a round-up or an improved accuracy measurement?
It is a .png but if you have Visio, I can mail the .vsdx file as well.
Once-upon-a-time Visio was my go-to tool for diagramming at work, but my license aged out quite some time ago and I see that I no longer have a copy installed. If you have Visio Professional (?) installed it appears that you could export as either an AutoCAD Drawing (.dwg) or in Exchange Format (.dxf), and SOLIDWORKS can import those formats.
 
I will recheck the thickness of the plate to make sure.
Yup, I have Visio Pro at work. As I only work on Tuesday and Thursday (retired, but rehired), It will take a day to get a .dwg or whatever other format can be exported. I will export to all ailabel formats, one should be readable :)
 
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