Chinon FR-506 Disk reading issue

[mmetalfan]

Hello

I am looking for any assistance with trying to figure this strange issue out.
Just got this drive and it is not reading any 1.2MB disks. It can read 360K disks with no issues.

The troubleshooting steps I have done are as follow.
Verified drive B in bios is set to 1.2MB (Drive A is a 1.44MB drive. Cable is also terminated at this drive)
New HD disks are only read as 360K and will not format to their 1.2MB size
Checked this site: https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=36942 and verified the only closed jumpers were:
DS1, MS1 and D-R
I also tried only having these jumpers closed as well: DS1, D-R and MS2 but the results were exactly the same.

The drive itself looks to be in good shape and heads look to be in great condition.
Not sure what else I can try as this model should be able to read 1.2MB HD floppies.

Thank you

 

[ldkraemer]

If your 1.2M Floppy Drive is at the end of a cable with conductors 10 thru 16 twisted,
it needs to be strapped for DS1 in a DS{0..3} configuration. The Terminator Jumper
should be shorted, so Terminator Resistors are installed.

Plug J1 Pin 1 = Terminator Resistor Installed = Shorted
Plug J1 Pin 2 = DS0 = Open
Plug J1 Pin 3 = DS1 = Shorted
Plug J1 Pin 4 = DS2 = Open
Plug J1 Pin 5 = DS3 = Open
Plug J1 Pin 6 = IU = Closed
Plug J1 Pin 7 = HL = Open
Plug J1 Pin 8 = Closed
Plug J1 Pin 9 = Open
Plug J1 Pin 10 = MS = Closed = Edge Connector Input Pin 2 -- Density Select 0=Low/1=High
Plug J1 Pin 11 = *MS = Open
Plug J1 Pin 12 = Ready = Closed
Plug J1 Pin 13 = Disk Change = Open

This should work to Format a 360K Diskette in a 1.2M Floppy Drive at 300PRM.


Larry

 

[mmetalfan]

Hi Larry
Thanks for the response.
This is a replacement drive as I previously had an EPSON SD-600 that used to work until my 2 year old stuck a cd in it and destroyed it in the process.
Bear with me please as I am learning all this for the first time and want to make sure I understand how all this works as when I got the EPSON one, I just added it to the cable and it worked right away so no troubleshooting.
If any of my thoughts are wrong, please let me know.

My cable is setup for the first connector to be for a 5 1/4 drive and the second connector/end of the cable being setup for a 3 1/2 drive which also has the twist.
That should mean the TM spot should be open correct? As the cable is terminated at the 3 1/2 drive
Also since this is the first device in the cable, should that also mean that I should have DS0 be closed?

These are all the jumper settings I am finding.
TM, DS0, DS1, DS2, DS3, IU, MS1, D-R, MS2

 

[ldkraemer]

NO, the first Floppy Drive on the Cable is DS1, and the cable has conductors 10 through 16 twisted before the last
connector on the cable. The Floppy on the end of the cable is also strapped for DS1. But, it is used in software
as A: while the First floppy on the cable (from the Motherboard) is B: drive. And since you have a 3.5" floppy at the end
of the cable that has the terminators installed, the first Floppy Drive B: (DS1) does NOT use the Terminator Resistors.

So, your Jumper on the Chinon FR-506 becomes:

Plug J1 Pin 1 = Terminator Resistor Installed = OPEN

That way you should be able to format and access both floppy's (B: = Strapped as DS1, and A: = Strapped as DS1 but with
twisted conductors that make A: = DS0.)

I know it's confusing, and very hard to understand.

Larry

 

[mmetalfan]

Looking that the schematics, that makes sense with it needing to be DS1.
So I made a few changes to the jumpers and nothing seemed to have made a difference. Still can only read the Low Density floppies and no HD ones.
I have attached a picture with what I currently have, hopefully you can read it the camera in my phone is junk.
Basically order from left to right is MS2, D-R, MS1, IU, DS3, DS2, DS1, DS0, TM
I have also tried the same settings with TM being opened and no change.
Have also tried having the D-R being opened and having IU being closed.
Nothing I do seems to make any difference in the computer at all.
Starting to wonder if maybe this drive can only read LD Disks even though from what I can by the model it should read HD ones...

 

[modem7]

from what I can by the model it should read HD ones...

I found an FR-506 in my collection. The jumper settings on my drive match those shown in the photo within post #5

I put the drive into my IBM AT as the only floppy drive. As the only floppy drive, it needed to be terminated, and it already was (it already had the TM jumper on). CMOS SETUP configured for one 1.2M floppy drive. Using DOS, I was able to format a high density floppy as 1.2M capacity.

This is a replacement drive as I previously had an EPSON SD-600 that used to work until my 2 year old stuck a cd in it and destroyed it in the process.

From that, we can assume that the floppy controller is a HD one, and is in working order.

New HD disks are only read as 360K and will not format to their 1.2MB size

I presume that you meant "format" rather than "read".
What are you using to format the 1.2M floppies, and how does it inform you of the "360K" ?

Verified drive B in bios is set to 1.2MB (Drive A is a 1.44MB drive. Cable is also terminated at this drive)

As an experiment, any change if the FR-506 is the only drive on the cable?
- Drive at end of cable, after the twist.
- TM jumper to be on.
- DS1
- CMOS SETUP configured for one 1.2M floppy drive.

 

[ldkraemer]

Thanks RAY,
The Photo and your information certainly didn't match the Chinon FZ-506 Document I found on the Internet.

So your jumpers are:

Plug J1 Pin 1 = Terminator Resistor = Shorted (as Photo)
Plug J1 Pin 2 = DS0 = Open    \
Plug J1 Pin 3 = DS1 = Shorted  \              (as Photo)
Plug J1 Pin 4 = DS2 = Open     / Select ONLY ONE
Plug J1 Pin 5 = DS3 = Open    /
Plug J1 Pin 6 = IU = Open
Plug J1 Pin 7 = MS1 = Closed                  (as Photo)
Plug J1 Pin 8 = Disk Change = Closed          (as Photo)
Plug J1 Pin 9 = MS2 = Open

Here is another discussion on VCF:

https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/5-1-4-floppy-drive-not-reading.44306/page-5

Epilogue 2: Just picked up the exact same 5.25" Chinon FR-506 drive at VCF MidWest this week-end, and this unit works perfectly.

The proper jumper config for this Chinon FR-506 drive on a PC is:
TM - on (termination resistors on)
DS0 - off
DS1 - on (must be jumpered as B: )
DS2 - off
DS3 - off
IU - off (In Use LED front light)
MS1 - on (auto density switch according to Pin2 density select pin)
D-R - on (Disk Change signal)
MS2 - off (Single speed 360 rpm. When on, speed changes between 300 and 360 rpm depending on Pin 2)



Larry

 

[mmetalfan]

I presume that you meant "format" rather than "read".
What are you using to format the 1.2M floppies, and how does it inform you of the "360K" ?

Not exactly. If I put in the new HD floppies, the drive reads it as only having 360K of space. If I then try to format the disk to 1.2MB, it errors out.
I am currently using windows 95 on this machine and file explorer is reporting back just under 360K of usable space.
As a note, I have tried doing this stuff in DOS mode but results are the same.

As an experiment, any change if the FR-506 is the only drive on the cable?
- Drive at end of cable, after the twist.
- TM jumper to be on.
- DS1
- CMOS SETUP configured for one 1.2M floppy drive.

Removed the 3 1/4 drive. Left the TM jumper on and changed bios to have noting set for the A drive and saved settings. For some reason though it still tried to initialize the A drive. Verified again in the bios and sure enough it was set to not installed. Continued to boot to Windows and saw that now Windows thinks there are 2 5 1/4 drives. One for A and other for B, with the B drive being the actual active one. Loaded an HD disk into the drive and same results as before, but still can read LD disks fine. Just for the heck of it, I set the A drive to be the 5 1/4 1.2MB disk and nothing in the B drive in BIOS. Booted up and got error on A drive and did not hear the B drive start up. As expected when trying to read from the A drive, nothing happens.

Here is another discussion on VCF:
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/5-1-4-floppy-drive-not-reading.44306/page-5
Epilogue 2: Just picked up the exact same 5.25" Chinon FR-506 drive at VCF MidWest this week-end, and this unit works perfectly.

The proper jumper config for this Chinon FR-506 drive on a PC is:
TM - on (termination resistors on)
DS0 - off
DS1 - on (must be jumpered as B: )
DS2 - off
DS3 - off
IU - off (In Use LED front light)
MS1 - on (auto density switch according to Pin2 density select pin)
D-R - on (Disk Change signal)
MS2 - off (Single speed 360 rpm. When on, speed changes between 300 and 360 rpm depending on Pin 2)

I ran out of time to try these settings as I have to head out for the night, but I test this tomorrow.

I really appreciate you all helping me out with figuring this out.
Just want to say thank you.

 

[modem7]

Here is another discussion on VCF:
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/5-1-4-floppy-drive-not-reading.44306/page-5

So, by my reading, CuriousMarc determined that he had a faulty drive.

D-R - on (Disk Change signal)

AT-class computers. Jumper would be removed for PC-class or XT-class system.

Removed the 3 1/4 drive. Left the TM jumper on and changed bios to have noting set for the A drive and saved settings. For some reason though it still tried to initialize the A drive. ...

Note that a BIOS author has the option of programming various behaviors into the BIOS.
Some behavior possibilities:
- An assumption that there is at least one floppy drive.
- An assumption that if there is only one floppy drive, it will be A:
- Even if A: is set to {none} or {not installed}, maybe the user forgot to set it. Have a look anyway.
- Even if B: is set to {none} or {not installed}, maybe the user forgot to set it. Have a look anyway.

And technically, the drive is not being 'initialised'. It is being crudely checked.

... Verified again in the bios and sure enough it was set to not installed.

Maybe if the BIOS determined a 40-track drive, it would have set A: to 360K. (I.e. Maybe the user forgot. I will help out.)

Continued to boot to Windows and saw that now Windows thinks there are 2 5 1/4 drives.

???

Just for the heck of it, I set the A drive to be the 5 1/4 1.2MB disk and nothing in the B drive in BIOS. Booted up and got error on A drive

If you didn't move the FR-506 to the connector at the end of the cable (i.e. after the twist), then an error is expected. Diagram at [here].

( In the CMOS SETUP, you are simply informing the BIOS as to what drive/s are fitted where. )

 

[mmetalfan]

The proper jumper config for this Chinon FR-506 drive on a PC is:
TM - on (termination resistors on)
DS0 - off
DS1 - on (must be jumpered as B: )
DS2 - off
DS3 - off
IU - off (In Use LED front light)
MS1 - on (auto density switch according to Pin2 density select pin)
D-R - on (Disk Change signal)
MS2 - off (Single speed 360 rpm. When on, speed changes between 300 and 360 rpm depending on Pin 2)

It is working now!
I must have missed something in a previous post but adding the jumpers to match exactly what was listed here fixed the issue!
It can now read HD Disks now!
Thank you all very much.

 

[ldkraemer]

I'm glad you got it working. So as you surf and search, when you locate the Manual for the FR-506,
or the schematic be sure to make sure the VCF users have access to the information.

Thanks.

Larry

 

[m7hacke]

Hi Everyone,

I just found this thread because I am having read (it just doesn't recognize the disk) issues with my Chinon FR-506. I have had this drive in my possession since it was new around 1990. It is installed in my 386SX. I do not know anything about this drive. I don't even know where the jumpers are or what kind. I have no idea what the jumpers do. I am hoping someone who knows more about this drive can help me. From reading above, it looks like you guys know what you are talking about.

I recently came into possession of an original copy of Microsoft's Adventure (I am jumping up and down with excitement) and Infocom's The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Neither disk can be read by my Chinon FR-506. It just gives the usual DOS error. I have no idea what kind of disks these are. I don't know if they are double density or high density. I do have some old disks that say 500k on them. I have never heard of a 500k 5.25" disk that is for an IBM compatible PC. I thought they were all 360k or 1.2MB. Anyway, this drive can read the 500k disks just fine, which baffles me. Do you know what kind of disks these two games are on and how I can make my Chinon FR-506 read/recognize them?

When I insert "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" and type "B:", I get "File not found".

When I insert "Adventure" and type "B:", I get "Sector not found reading drive B". I just found out that this disk is bootable. So, I tried booting with it. It tried to read the disk and then just went back to the hard drive.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[jafir]

Those games are both PC booters.

List of self-booting IBM PC compatible games - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[m7hacke]

Thank you, but that doesn't change the fact that my drive can't read either of them. Is there a jumber or something I need to change?

There is a sizeable delay in my comments being posted becasue they still require moderator approval. There are more coming after this one.

 

[krebizfan]

There is a utility that can be plugged into the A: drive to transfer the boot over to the B: drive. I am having trouble locating a reliable link to it right now. It may be better to find a version of either game that runs on the hard drive.

500K on a floppy label is the theoretical capacity of the disk calculated by multiplying data rate with duration of a track. A normal format on that disk would provide 360K.

 

[m7hacke]

Finding a version that runs on a hard drive defeats the purpose of getting original versions of these games for free. I want to use the floppies.

It does not matter if it is A: drive or B: drive. I only have one 5.25" floppy drive. I tried it as drive A: and drive B: and neither worked. I changed the BIOS too, to boot from A:.

Thanks for the explanation of the 500k disks. So that means they are double density. So we now know my drive can read double density disks. This is a high density drive, right? So maybe these games are on high density disks. How do I get my drive to read high density disk?

 

[VeryVon]

I'm not sure which disk format you're referring to when you say "500k" but that's fine. Below is a link to a list of standard floppy disk formats supported by MS-DOS. If you're referring to 5 1/4 double density, 1.2MB, then typically this is selected in the bios (see sample bios screenshot below.) If you're comfortable running DOS utilities, then ImageDisk or AnaDisk have the capability to bypass the bios and analyze the disk directly to ascertain disk layout and encoding.

Floppy Disk / Formats // retrocmp / retro computing

Floppy Disk Drives, Floppy Disk formats

retrocmp.de

 

[krebizfan]

It does not matter if it is A: drive or B: drive. I only have one 5.25" floppy drive. I tried it as drive A: and drive B: and neither worked. I changed the BIOS too, to boot from A:.

Thanks for the explanation of the 500k disks. So that means they are double density. So we now know my drive can read double density disks. This is a high density drive, right? So maybe these games are on high density disks. How do I get my drive to read high density disk?

What are you doing to make it boot? If you put the disk in the A: drive and then hit CTRL-ALT-DEL, that should start the booting process. You may need to check if the BIOS boots off the hard drive before looking at the floppy drives. Remember to exit any programs on the hard drive before rebooting.

If you have a typical setup with a 1.44 MB A: drive and a 1.2 MB B: drive, a 5.25" bootable floppy won't boot without help. You could swap the drive placement on the drive cable or install something called BOOTB on a 1.44 MB bootable floppy which boots on the A drive and then causes a disk in the B drive to boot. http://cd.textfiles.com/arcadebbs/UTILITY/ has a copy.
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/boot-from-b-or-switch-a-and-b.40477/ is an old thread that explains the requirement in detail.

The drive should read a high density disk (1.2MB) if one is inserted. If the game disks are actual period disks, they should be single sided double density disks with a 160K format.

 

[m7hacke]

krebizfan, I just saw your post. I was working on my computer. I got everything to work. I had to swap the cable for my floppy drives. My 5.25" is now drive A: and my 3.5" is now drive B:. I guess both games required that they boot in drive A:. I also switched the drives in my BIOS and made the boot order A:, C:. Both games boot now. However, Adventure seems to have an issue. I was able to start playing the game twice, but every other time it will not start. It loads and asks me which cave I want to load (A.K.A. saved game). It says to press ENTER to start a new game. I do that and It displays some more text, then the computer reboots and I am caught in this loop.

Thank you, everyone.

 

[MauriceH]

Hi m7hacke,
What I first should do is check the drive it self for proper working capabilities.
So find a scratch floppy disk.
Format it with this drive.
Put some files on it and see if that is working fine.
Also do a chkdisk to see if it is formatted at what size.

Beware that the notches on the disk 3,5" tell you if its a 720k or 1,44
1 slot has a slide to write protect, if there is a second slot at the other side its a 1,44 HD disk
If not its a 720k disk.
The drive should , through a switch, see if that 2nd slot is open or closed.
So if a 1,44 HD disk is formatted as a 720k, you know that switch is not working.
Or some other problem.

By then you know if the drive is ok, and just a floppy issue.
There is software to check if the content of the floppy is in good condition.
f.i. Norton Disk Doctor.

So first check that drive at several levels with some disks.