• Please review our updated Terms and Rules here

Composite Video Question

johnx993

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
650
Location
Texas (mostly)
I have several old computers with composite video output. However when coupled with any of my relatively recent TVs, the top line and left column is not shown.
However a 'dedicated monitor', (not a TV) with manual controls to adjust screen width and height, I can get the missing areas.
Looks like modern TVs don't allow you to tinker at that level.

Is there a known workaround for this?

Or should I dig up and old RF modulator and see if it looks better on channel 2/3 ?
 
A lot of TV sets, especially modern ones, are forced into "overscan" even on HDMI and digital signals, let alone composite signals.

So depending on the timing, you may end up missing screen data.

Usually it's set-specific, so there is no workaround. I hit the same issue last night with HDMI and a PC - though it wasn't so bad I couldn't ignore it - just a few pixels.
 
What computers in particular does this happen with?

In particular cartridge games for the VIC 20 generally starts too far out in the upper left corner, and you move the picture by pressing and holding down and/or right while being in the start/spash screen.

Some of the vintage computers with composite out really have large borders (for example a PAL C64) so I would be surprised if this happens with one of them.

If you want to experiment a bit, maybe try an Amiga either with custom software or Kickstart/Workbench 2 or newer, and try repositioning the screen with the "Overscan" prefs thing. That might help tell if your TVs generally just hide the upper and leftmost part no matter where it is, or if they hide a fixed amount of screen area no matter what content it receives, kind of sort of, if this makes sense.
 
Well, my big-screen Sony TV allows you to adjust the position of the screen but only up to a limit. Not enough to read the leftmost column.
OTOH my Zenith data monitor (not a TV, but has a CRT) allows a very wide range of adjustment, so I can read it fine there.
Just seems strange that modern (as in LCD flatscreens) are incapable of this. I've tried it with 4 TVs of that type and 2 different computers, and all exhibited the same problem.
I think I have a couple of tube-type old TVs in storage. I could try to fire one of those up.
But still, I'm thinking a filter of some sort should clear this up.

For MiaM, I'm using an Osborne 01A and Osborne Executive at present. Though I have also seen this in other computers (Netronics video board comes to mind)
I'm only now getting irritated enough by it to seek a solution.

And sorry, I'm not into consumer appliance computers. I'm sure they can be fun though!
These Osbornes are the only machines I own with plastic cases. :)
 
Just seems strange that modern (as in LCD flatscreens) are incapable of this. I've tried it with 4 TVs of that type and 2 different computers, and all exhibited the same problem.

The overscan setting has already been mentioned; if your TV doesn’t have it (or it’s not enough) then probably your best bet is to try an external composite to HDMI adapter. I’ve had reasonably good luck with the brain dead little bricks they sell on Amazon for less than $10, like this:


For MiaM, I'm using an Osborne 01A and Osborne Executive at present. Though I have also seen this in other computers (Netronics video board comes to mind)
I'm only now getting irritated enough by it to seek a solution.

This is why you’re having this problem. Back in the day NTSC television broadcasts were set up to assume only about the center 2/3rds of horizontal scan lines would be visible within the bezel margins of consumer TV sets. Unfortunately this assumption has carried over into the scaler chip settings of modern TVs, so by default they chop off about that much overscan. And worse, even if the TV has an overscan adjustment it doesn’t apply fully to analog inputs. (IE, some TVs by default chop some margin even off HD broadcasts; in the scaling settings they’ll have a “panel” mode that will fix that for HDMI input, but it won’t change the margins on their analog ins.)

… anyway, the output of “business computers” like the Osborne usually uses more of the horizontal line for the active area, resulting in the narrower margins. This is why most composite monitors of the era have horizontal size and positioning controls. If you hooked these up to a contemporary home color TV you’d have the same problem.

The external composite brick I mentioned, at least the couple I have, your mileage may vary, shows more overscan than a typical monitor; I haven’t had any columns cut off even with pretty shady signal inputs. Another plus they have is some LCD TVs *hate* the “fake progressive” framing that most of these old computers output, (IE, NTSC broadcast is “480i@30hz”, while most computers of this vintage output a nonstandard “240P@60hz” signal that’s unstable and torn by input scalers that don’t understand it.) these bricks specifically support 240P.
 
I wonder if this was a difference between the NTSC and PAL parts of the world?
At the time CRTs with square corners became a thing in the mid 80's, PAL TVs would generally display almost all of the signal.

For the most common test picture in the PAL world, the Philips PM5544, everything except the white/black rectangles around the border would be visible. Outside those you had the sync, blanking and color burst signals for the horizontal part, and for the vertical part you had sync, blanking and teletext data.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philips_circle_pattern
PM5544_with_non-PAL_signals.png
 
At the time CRTs with square corners became a thing in the mid 80's, PAL TVs would generally display almost all of the signal.

And American TVs from the latter half of the 80's also tended to cover up less of the overscan with their bezels, but home computer designers in the late 1970's had to reckon with the fact that the TVs from that era (and earlier, there were plenty of TVs as old as the 1960's in circulation in 1980) had a smaller zone they could consider "safe" from being covered up. The rule of thumb for home computer designers was they generally measured the horizontal scan line in NTSC color clocks, of which there were 227.5 across the whole ~63.5us scanline (including the roughly 1/6th of it that was used by the horizontal sync pulse, porch, and colorburst), that they could usually get away with using the center 160 without losing stuff off the sides. This is why 320 pixels across was a common horizontal resolution for TV computers; colorburst is 3.58mhz and they'd use 2x colorburst, or 7.16mhz, as their pixel clock...

(160 being roughly 2/3rds 227.5 is why I used that figure in my previous post but, sure, strictly speaking that's not an accurate ratio for the *active* part of the line. The part between the porches is around 52ms, or around 187 NTSC periods, so if you state it that way then home computer makers generally restricted themselves to using at most about 85% of the active line.)


The-all-white-NTSC-composite-video-signal-19.png


Of course, if you've ever actually hooked up a machine with the specs like I outlined above (85% of the active line used), like an IBM CGA card, to a 70's or 80's TV set you will probably have experienced that even that number was too ambitious and there was a good chance you'd get something cut off, or at least you'd need to hope your TV had a horizontal hold/position control. (The CGA card actually lets you adjust it on the computer end; the DOS MODE command has the "L/R" arguments to the "CO40/80" command to reprogram the CRTC to nudge the active line one way or the other relative the sync pulse.) This is why the *second* most common horizontal pixel resolution for home computers was something in the ballpark of 256 pixels. (TRS-80 color computer, TI9918/A-based systems, etc.) 256 pixels, or 128 NTSC clocks for a 7.16mhz pixel clock, is, coincidentally enough, about 2/3rds of the *active* (verses "full") line, so it works as a worse case scenario that quite a few makers of "TV machines" stuck to.

Anyway. The OP specifically mentioned the Osborne 1 as something that's getting columns cut off, so let's look at its timing because, coincidentally enough, it's pretty much the worst case scenario. (At least if it's running in its native 52 column mode, I'm not sure off the top of my head what the specs are for the 80 column cards*.) An unmodified Osborne 1 has an 8mhz pixel clock and outputs 8 dot wide characters, which makes life really easy for doing the math here; a character is one microsecond wide. It displays 52 of these characters across the horizontal which means... oh. It literally uses *100%* of the active line outside of the porches and hsync pulse. This absolutely guarantees it's going to go into overscan on a normally adjusted consumer TV set. I think even a lot of contemporary monochrome composite monitors would have trouble with this unless they specifically have a horizontal width control that lets you get the porches beyond the bezel area.)

(* FWIW, I was able to find a pretty bad schematic of the Osborne 1 "Screen Pac", and it looks to me like 80 column mode on a so-equipped Osborne should actually be easier for a mere mortal monitor to display, because it has a 16mhz dot clock; the active area shouldn't be any wider than a Commodore 64. But since it also supports 52 and 104 columns it might still have bad positioning of the hsync pulse? As for the Executive it appears to have a 12mhz dot clock; assuming this is correct and it still has 8 pixel wide characters then this will be just as bad as the Osborne 1 in terms of *barely* fitting between the sync pulses, and therefore it's not surprising an LCD scaler expecting broadcast TV levels of overscan would have trouble with it. I'm not sure those bricks I recommended will even handle that, that's *tight*.)
 
As for the Executive it appears to have a 12mhz dot clock; assuming this is correct and it still has 8 pixel wide characters then this will be just as bad as the Osborne 1 in terms of *barely* fitting between the sync pulses, and therefore it's not surprising an LCD scaler expecting broadcast TV levels of overscan would have trouble with it. I'm not sure those bricks I recommended will even handle that, that's *tight*.

FWIW, here's a picture of one of those $8 Amazon HDMI to Composite bricks displaying the output from my clearly-I'm-never-going-to-find-time-to-finish-it homebrew computer project which happens to also be using a 12Mhz pixel clock:

index.php


(The output from those bricks is HDMI, I have it connected to an old 4x3 DVI LCD monitor using an adapter cable)

This is 64 columns, or 512 pixels wide. (which comes to around 82% of the possible active area, IE, it roughly follows the home computer rule of thumb for horizontal utilization) The output from an Osborne Executive, unless it uses narrower characters, is going to be 25% wider, so... definitely curious if this brick would display it all or cut it off. Eyeballing it it looks like it might fit if it were centered correctly; I don't *think* these bricks apply any kind of mask/blanking other than cutting off the hsync/porch area but I haven't tried anything that pushes the limits that far.
 
If you're using a widescreen TV, make sure it's not stretching out the 4:3 image to fit the 16:9 aspect ratio. This may cause the edges to get cut off. If you set it to display the video as 4:3, then it should not cut off the overscan area.
 
If you set it to display the video as 4:3, then it should not cut off the overscan area.

Every digital TV I've played with, which, granted, isn't a huge sample, applies at least some degree of masking that's short of the actual porches, regardless of whether you're blowing up to full screen or retaining 4x3 aspect ratio. The question is how much. I'm sure in most cases it's plenty to accommodate things that were actually intended to be viewed on TVs, but the output from these old monochrome beasts is another kettle of fish.

I did a bit of poking around to see if there was some kind of industry standard for overscan that the makers of TVs might be following, but it seems like that's its own can of worms. Apparently it's been standard for about 25 years to *digitize* SDTV signals using a 13.5Mhz (luma) pixel clock, and this is why the "resolution" of NTSC signals is often quoted as "720x480". (13.5mhz is just under 74.1 nanoseconds per pixel, if you multiply that by 720 that gives you 53.33 microseconds, which is a little wider than what you usually see as the definition for "active line" in older references (usually something like 52.6us). But then the fine print says that 720 pixels includes a leading and trailing 8 pixel blanking area, which takes the *usable* picture down to 52.15 microseconds, and from there, well, there doesn't seem to be a consistent straight answer/recommendation as to what, if any, mask should be applied beyond that. (There's a long rambling reddit post where someone chucks out a ballpark of most LCD tvs allowing around 660 of these 13.5mhz pixels horizontally, which would be a 48.8us active line, but obviously you'll need to take that with a huge grain of salt. For reference that CGA example I cited earlier is 44.7 microseconds.)

The humbling math here is that if an Osborne Executive's NTSC output really is outputting 80 8-pixel-wide characters with a 12mhz pixel clock its active horizontal lines are 53.33us long, which means even the most optimistic take probably puts it outside of the capabilities of any standard digitizer. Also, FWIW, it looks like Osborne's output 10 line *tall* characters, IE, the screen vertical height is 240 pixels? That's likewise probably going to be a problem with TVs. Broadcast NTSC used to use a few lines flanking the vertical porches for functions like EIA-608/EDS, and you also had monkeyshines like macrovision that created some garbage off in the margins with the assumption it wouldn't be visible on normal TVs. I would be pretty surprised if most scalers give you the full 480i, and even if a given scaler does the framing is going to be critical.
 
And American TVs from the latter half of the 80's also tended to cover up less of the overscan with their bezels, but home computer designers in the late 1970's had to reckon with the fact that the TVs from that era (and earlier, there were plenty of TVs as old as the 1960's in circulation in 1980) had a smaller zone they could consider "safe" from being covered up. The rule of thumb for home computer designers was they generally measured the horizontal scan line in NTSC color clocks, of which there were 227.5 across the whole ~63.5us scanline (including the roughly 1/6th of it that was used by the horizontal sync pulse, porch, and colorburst), that they could usually get away with using the center 160 without losing stuff off the sides. This is why 320 pixels across was a common horizontal resolution for TV computers; colorburst is 3.58mhz and they'd use 2x colorburst, or 7.16mhz, as their pixel clock...

Yeah, the rounded corners and incorrectly adjusted 70's and possibly even 60's TVs probably made things worse. Fun fact: The rounded corners in MacOS is software generated.

Re width: I would also think that 320 pixels was chosen as with an 8 pixel wide character set you get 40 characters per row, which is exactly half the width of "professional" terminals, which in turn use the same width as punch cards :)
 
Well... some progress.
I have an Osborne 01 with the 80 column board.
When I switch to 80 columns, the width is fine - in fact it has ample dark borders.
But the vertical is chopping off the top and bottom lines.
 
When I switch to 80 columns, the width is fine - in fact it has ample dark borders.
But the vertical is chopping off the top and bottom lines.

That aligns with what I saw on the Screen-PAC schematic; the 16mhz pixel clock means the 80 column mode line will be just as narrow horizontally as a TV-optimized computer (it’s only going to use about 40 microseconds of the ~52us active area)… but then the problem is the 240 line vertical count going to be *way* too tall for TV overscan. Computers meant for NTSC TV display rarely output more than 200 lines.

For example, the Tandy 1000, an enhanced PCjr clone, has a tweaked video system that by default outputs 225 lines instead of 200 in text mode (people of the time whined about how the lowercase descenders on the normal 8x8 CGA font cell touched the tops of the letters in the next line, so the Tandy inserts an extra blank line), and even just those extra 25 lines make it hit the top of many CGA *monitors*. One of the function keys is labeled “TV Mode” and holding it down on boot makes it revert to 200 lines. 240 is literally right up to the vsync/blanking guardrails; no monitor that doesn’t have custom vertical sizing will fit that onscreen.

You could try the external bricks and see if they go all the way to the gutter, I haven’t actually tried making a screen that tall (I’ve played with numbers up to 216 or so), but you might need to resort to something custom that’s willing to show you the entire NTSC frame. I wonder if devices like the RetroTink will do it, or maybe a custom profile for the Raspberry Pi-powered RGBI2HDMI…
 
Back
Top