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Delicate 8” and 5¼” double-sided floppy disks – how to avoid a ‘bulldozer’ effect.

jonhales

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Jun 3, 2014
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I have a collection of 8 inch and 5¼ inch disks which are difficult to read. I’m looking for advice about ways others have resolved the issues I’m facing.

An important preliminary point is that the disks *look* pristine. There’s little or no evidence of previous damage (e.g. concentric grooves) or contamination with mould. A further point is that the disks were for the ABC-24 and ABC-26 CP/M machines from AI Electronics Corporation of Japan. As far as known, these are the only disks that exist with operating system files and source code for these PCs.

The oxide is extremely fragile. This is probably due to unsatisfactory storage over a period of decades.

A symptom of the issue is that oxide builds up on the leading edge of the ceramic head – i.e. before the flux transitions can be read. The design of the head was probably intended to stabilise the ‘floppy’ medium as it passed across the head. With this weak oxide, a smaller surface area might be better (e.g. reduced friction).

Digression: ‘Bulldozer’ effect
I have started to think of the drive heads as equivalent to a bulldozer. It the blade starts to collect material, it scrapes deeper in the next tracks to be read. And there’s no bulldozer that doesn’t make a noise. The issue is to find a way to keep the bulldozer floating (silently) rather than digging noisily.

One partial solution may be to remove the ‘doughnut’ from the original sleeve and insert it in a sleeve from a disk that has never been used – on the basis that the latter may have less dirt adhering to the fabric that originally provided lubrication. That doesn’t seem to address the problem, but it’s easy to do.

One solution may be to reduce friction between the head and the surface of the disk. It could be helpful to adjust the head load of the drive (but that isn’t an obvious way to read the data first time). Perhaps some surface treatment exists that could make the disk less affected by friction or more resilient to contact with the head.

What works?
It doesn’t seem practical to alter the profile of read/write heads of any drive. So, the question is: “what works to stabilise the oxide of the floppy disks?”.

Heat?
I’m aware that in the audio tape recovery environment, gentle heat for a period of time is the approach to tackle ‘sticky shed’. I think this approach has been used with QIC catridges and 9 track tape. Has anyone successfully used this approach for floppies?

Chemicals?
I have seen references to chemicals that may help to deal with mould or other surface contaminants. I’ve seen some advocates of IPA and others who warn against it. Are there recommended discussions to find?

What is best for cleaning the heads?
Far more time is devoted to cleaning the read heads of the drive than reading the disks. What has been found most effective (excluding ultrasound, which would mean removal of the heads from the drives)?



Usual approach

Some background information. I have several Shugart 8 inch and Teac 5¼ inch drives used regularly and known to be well-calibrated. And other drives to use if these fail.

My usual approach with late 1970s and early 1980s disks is to read tracks 0-4 and then examine the read-write heads. The drive is on the workbench (not in a case) with a bright light to inspect the heads. I use a Q-tip taped to the end of a thin stick of wood (‘coffee stirrer’) to access the head from the side after soaking the tip in 95-99% Isopropyl Alcohol. Sideways scrubbing eventually gets rid of the visible oxide residue. Light pressure on the upper head is required when double-sided disks are involved.

In a few cases, when there is no evidence of oxide left on the head from tracks 0-4, I may increase the number of tracks read next time, say tracks 5-14. If there’s still no oxide when I get to around track 35, I may read tracks 36-76 in a single operation.

With a collection of disks, I check the data recovered in a hex viewer from the first few disks. If that suggests poor capture, I’ll try a different drive.

What other information would be useful?

Thanks in advance.
 
VCF user "Chuck" is the person to contact. He'll be best for a solution. I know he uses a chemical on old oxide and searching here should for some of his posts regarding media can maybe give you the answers.
 
Are these disks by any chance Wabash?

I had some Wabash disks, and they seemed to be doing exactly what you describe. Even the minimal head contact was having a 'bulldozer' effect, and was scraping the oxide coating off the disk. Not only would this destroy the disk, but the residue scraped off would then float about inside the drive and damage the drive.

I assume that this is some sort of binder breakdown, as per recording tape. I was lucky that there was nothing critical on the few disks I had that were affected.

The solution with recording tape is to 'bake' the tape, just enough heat to dry out the coating and harden it enough to allow the disks to be read even just once so that the data can be copied to a safe disk. You can use an oven, but this has too many risks, a de-hydrator (which might be used as a sort of slow/gentle cooker/drier) may have a timer, and the right sort of temperature setting.

This treatment is usually a once-only process.

Look up about 'Sticky Shed Syndrome' or SSS re recording tape. I see references to 3 or 4 hours at 133 degrees F, but I'd say that the exact details will depend on the unit, and the quantity being dried. A few floppy disks should need less time/heat than would a spool of recording tape.

Geoff
 
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Thanks GeoffB17 for useful comments.

I assumed the name Wabash would come up at some time. Yes, that's the name - and perhaps 'the name of the problem'. A number of the disks are non-Wabash, and the important system disks have labels covering any media manufacturer labels, so these may be from a different source.

I have seen suggestions about driers for food products - and the need for accurate temperature control and measurement at several levels in the appliance.

I'm familiar with washing and drying disks that have dirt in the sleeve or other surface contamination.
 
I take it that some of your disks ARE Wabash. Are they much more of a problem than non-Wabash ones?

Are there non-Wabash disks that seem to be no problem at all? So far, ALL of my non-Wabash disks, even unbranded ones, are working pefectly even with use back to the 1980s.

I have many disks from different manufacturers, and there are sufficient little differences between the disks so that it is possible to tell them apart even without the original label being visible/present. I could certainly spot the Wabash ones I had. However, these were from a single batch, although a different (much older?) batch might not suffer the same problem, as if this is akin to SSS then this is something with the binder that changed at a specific point in time when the mfg process was changed from an 'oil' based binder to a water based binder.

Geoff
 
Okay, I've posted multiple times on the subject. Here it all is in a nutshell:

1. Wabash floppies and tapes are very bad news; they suffer from deterioration of the binder. (Yes, even 1/2" open-reel tapes). "Baking" (see point 2 below) doesn't help much.
2. For a lot of media, particularly those that have been stored in a relatively humid environment, baking does help a bit. I bake mine at 58C ±0.5C for anywhere from 8-24 hours. Be sure your "oven" circulates the air--you don't want any "hot" or "cold" spots.
3. Baking isn't a cure-all. For the stuff (and it isn't just Wabash) that insists on shedding, clean the drive heads and lubricate the medium sparingly with cyclomethicone/D5/Decamethylcyclopentasiloxane. It will evaporate in time, leaving the medium as it was before you started. Be sure to clean your equipment after use--the stuff is slippery and can cause grief where you don't expect it.

Whether you're working on disks or tapes, try to do your retrieval in a single pass so as to cause the least damage to the medium.

That's all I have.
 
Thank you Chuck(G).

One query. You wrote "[...] clean the drive heads and lubricate [...]". I assume the cyclomethicone is the most suitable lubricant for use across the surface of the disk. But not for dealing with the oxide left on the heads.

In this case, the time-consuming aspect of the problem is cleaning the drive heads. I use IPA for cleaning (so far, I'm ready to be advised). And I avoid the use of abrasive 'cleaning disks'. Which product and technique would you recommend for cleaning the Wabash stuff off the heads?
 
IPA is pretty decent for cleaning heads; Freon TF is better, but basically unobtainium. The Wabash stuff is pretty tenacious; I use perc for that, being careful not to slosh it around on plastic parts. Heptane also does a decent job without corroding plastic. For application, I use a flat foam-tipped gun cleaning swab.
 
I've used a cleaning method that I talk about in these Winworld threads:

If you try this method, Wabash disk jackets will almost certainly try to stick to the cookie as it dries, so moving things around while drying is important.

I've found cyclomethicone useful for increasing readability of scratched disks, but I don't consider it a replacement for carefully cleaning the disk surface. Just a note, too much and the disk won't spin, too little and it dries exposing the surface.

Don't use alcohol on Wabash disks, that is almost guaranteed to remove oxide.
 
True enough, the professional way to do it would be to remove the cookie. That would be faster and less error prone. But most of what I archive is stuff that is somewhat collectable or reusable. Part of the idea of the washing technique I have used is that it should remove most of gunk from the disk jacket as well as the cookie. It is not an elegant solution, but it has worked for me.
 
(OP) Two further points for discussion.

1. The advice received is to put the floppy disk in a newer, cleaner sleeve for the duration of reading. With double-sided disks, there a risk of confusion. I propose to punch a small hole to identify a certain side. With the disk label facing up (side 1), a 2mm hole placed at right angles to the index hole, in the area round the central space would identify the side. Putting a small hole in the area that gets clamped to the drive spindle should not affect rotation of the disk.
2. Flux reading devices (GW, KF, CW, etc.) may default to reading each track multiple times, with the opportunity to specify the number of reads in the command line. Since loss of oxide may be proportional to the number of reads, reducing the number to 1 or 2 might be better than 3, 4 or 5.

Any comments/discussion on these points would be welcome.
 
Why not simply use a permanent felt tip pen to mark the "up" side of the cookie? Do it in an area near the hub not used to record data.
It's a really bad idea to reuse If a disk showing shedding propensities.
 
I've had good results dealing with fungi and loose residue by removing the cookie and washing it carefully, fully immersed in lukewarm water with a touch of dishwashing liquid. While the cookie is immersed, I rest it on the palm of my hand and gently run a soft cloth around both sides about 4 times. I then removed the mylar from the soapy water, dip it in a bowl of clean water to rise, let the excess water run off, then let it dry while resting on a paper towel. After drying, I insert the cookie into a clean jacket and read.

Seems to work OK, and certainly takes away the anxiety that "the bulldozer " will occur.

Tez


Tez
 
A couple of things Chuck didn't cover
Make/model of drive matter, don't use a double-sided drive if you don't have to, two sided drives much rougher on media.
I've been using Teac FD55 drives for decades and just discovered Panasonic JU-455 and 457 seem to have better read channels.

Don't use 1/2 height 8" drives, especially Qume double-sided ones

My go to 8" drives for years have been Shugart SA800 and 850

Pick a drive that has an easy to access path to the heads
 
I've had good results dealing with fungi and loose residue by removing the cookie and washing it carefully, fully immersed in lukewarm water with a touch of dishwashing liquid.

That is essentially what I do as well. For problem children, careful cleaning under a stereo microscope.
Be extremely careful not to crease the disk.
 
A couple of things Chuck didn't cover
Make/model of drive matter, don't use a double-sided drive if you don't have to, two sided drives much rougher on media.
I've been using Teac FD55 drives for decades and just discovered Panasonic JU-455 and 457 seem to have better read channels.

Don't use 1/2 height 8" drives, especially Qume double-sided ones

My go to 8" drives for years have been Shugart SA800 and 850

Pick a drive that has an easy to access path to the heads
I've been very happy with my TM848s

I know tandon doesnt exactly scream quality but that model may he the exception...
 
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