Discussion on for sale posts by new members

[smbaker]

I created this thread to consolidate the numerous discussions we have had in other individual For Sale posts when a new member with a low post count (usually 1) lists an item at what the community feels is an unrealistic price.

Several persons have proposed that we should require a minimum post count before a For Sale post can be created. This would reduce the number of people who do not intend to participate in discussion or community and are merely looking for yet another free place to advertise their item. Often these people are seeking what folks here like to call "eBay prices" and may be performing unrealistic fishing expeditions. In the best case this creates noise in the forum that folks find annoying and in the worst case it litters the forum with misleading data points associating computers with inflated prices (exactly the situation eBay has created with "Buy it Now / Best Offer").

My personal opinion is that we should not add this limitation. I have bought at least one item from someone with a post count of 1. It does happen, though it may be comparatively rare. One of our goals is to see that vintage computers do not end up in landfills. Another goal is to foster discussion, and a robust discussion about the valuation of an item is useful to the community. When something is significantly overpriced, we should point it out, but at the same time we should avoid protracted arguments.

Ultimately, it's not our decision anyway, it's up to the owners and operators of the forum. But we can share our thoughts in an organized manner.

Scott

 

[hunterjwizzard]

Shouldn't this be in general discussion?

Anyway, my take: the marketplace is for community members to buy, sell, and trade with one another. Not to be "Vintage Computers Craigslist". Ergo, some kind of minimum post-count/level of community involvement is warranted.

It all depends on what the community things the for sale/trade boards are for, though.

 

[NeXT]

Several persons have proposed that we should require a minimum post count before a For Sale post can be created

We do. Your first ten or so posts are moderated and are not posted until approved. this is also used to moderate for the Triangle Scam.

This would reduce the number of people who do not intend to participate in discussion or community and are merely looking for yet another free place to advertise their item

There's nothing stopping you from cross-posting them advertising the same thing elsewhere, or reporting bulk threads within the forum.

One of our goals is to see that vintage computers do not end up in landfills.

In a perfect world, yes. However I'll argue that not everything NEEDS to be saved. I've been swimming in excess hardware that for years I can't even pay people to drive here and take away.

When something is significantly overpriced, we should point it out, but at the same time we should avoid protracted arguments.

This is actually something that has nearly caused lawsuits. My favorite example was over a decade ago on 68KMLA where someone posted a link to an overpriced ebay listing, everyone laughed, the seller was a forum member and threatened to sue the administration team for defamation and libel. If I still had that post I'd print it out, hang it on the wall and title it "The stupidest thing I have ever seen on the Internet".
Other high-dollar communities like arcade sales and service doesn't like people calling you out for Friends and Family transactions, because they use it to dodge taxes. Other places like amibay will simply expunge you because their logic is flawed to begin with.

Since E-feelings are a thing, this forum has not allowed us to laugh at or otherwise be critical of someone's prices for a long time.

 

[Timo W.]

There are tons of ways to deal with it. But so far, it seems the admins/operators don't see any need to take action.

Just a *few* ideas:
* new members (e.g. < 10 posts) could only see a special section of the marketplace that can be used to ask for value or advice for selling, but not to actually post an item for sale.
* new members have their posts in the Marketplace moderated and any sale offer is critically evaluated.
* using the Marketplace requires application or some sort of personal introduction first. This is something I know from many other forums.

The list goes on. But it does not matter if the problem isn't really seen.

 

[hunterjwizzard]

I still thinking how we stop the behavior is less important than defining what sort of behavior we want to see.

 

[tech58761]

I think the best way would require a new member's first post be in Introductions and have them state the purpose of their arrival.

(Another idea would be an Appraisals area for those coming here to sound out a value for their vintage equipment. well, it was just a thought)

 

[hunterjwizzard]

Another idea would be an Appraisals area for those coming here to sound out a value for their vintage equipment.

We don't need another sub forum, people routinely ask for appraisals in the appropriate sub forum. If you have, say, a Sinclair, it makes more sense to go to the Sinclair boards and ask for a valuation.

 

[smbaker]

Shouldn't this be in general discussion?

I thought about it, but most people who care about the issue are in this forum. If the mods want to move it to general, I have no objection.

We don't need another sub forum, people routinely ask for appraisals in the appropriate sub forum. If you have, say, a Sinclair, it makes more sense to go to the Sinclair boards and ask for a valuation.

I feel like we have a lot of subforums already. For example, do we really need a separate auctions and for-sale subforum? Most people asking for an appraisal probably want to sell the item.

I think the best way would require a new member's first post be in Introductions and have them state the purpose of their arrival.

Would "I have an <X> and I am looking for a place to sell it" be an appropriate purpose? To me it is. Some people are just here because they found something in a room and don't know what to do with it. Some of them genuinely want it to go to a good home.

I still thinking how we stop the behavior is less important than defining what sort of behavior we want to see.

This is a good point. To me, the most annoying behavior is someone who posts a single For Sale post and then disappears without discussion or follow up. The second most annoying are those who post and either don't listen to the responses or become belligerant leading to a protracted argument. In either case though, I find it's very little effort for me to just turn my eyes elsewhere and ignore it. It doesn't even take a software feature to do that.

 

[hunterjwizzard]

I feel like we have a lot of subforums already. For example, do we really need a separate auctions and for-sale subforum? Most people asking for an appraisal probably want to sell the item.

The auctions sub-forum is also for pointing out auctions we find. But yes, I am against any solution that adds ANOTHER subforum. We don't them.

Asking for appraisals here is I guess an option but since it forces you to put in an amount in, I don't think that's the solution, either. I push for doing appraisals in the system-appropriate sub-forum.

This is a good point. To me, the most annoying behavior is someone who posts a single For Sale post and then disappears without discussion or follow up. The second most annoying are those who post and either don't listen to the responses or become belligerant leading to a protracted argument. In either case though, I find it's very little effort for me to just turn my eyes elsewhere and ignore it. It doesn't even take a software feature to do that.

This is why I want to settle on a definition for how we think the for sale or trade section is supposed to be used.

Is it an open board for anyone or is it a community resource? More importantly which do you or other readers in this thread want it to be?

 

[maxtherabbit]

What's the point of discussing it? The admins are going to do or not do what they see fit. This isn't a democracy

 

[Shadow Lord]

We do. Your first ten or so posts are moderated and are not posted until approved. this is also used to moderate for the Triangle Scam.

Then it isn't working. I frequently see brand new user whose first post is I found this thing and I want $XXXXX dollars for it because it is R@R3 and L@@K or whatever...

In a perfect world, yes. However I'll argue that not everything NEEDS to be saved. I've been swimming in excess hardware that for years I can't even pay people to drive here and take away.

Completely agree. In one of the original posts that sparked this thread a mod had said the reason we let anyone post is to prevent vintage computers from becoming e-waste. While a laudable goal, and one I agree with, no one is rescuing a Mac 128K for $8K or a CP/M machine for $4k form the landfill. Unless sanity sets in those machines will go to landfills. We are actually doing a disservice to the community by allowing such ads. Rescues operations, as I have seen and understood them over the years, have been more of "I have stuff, its free, come and get it or it will go in the trash".

This is actually something that has nearly caused lawsuits. My favorite example was over a decade ago on 68KMLA where someone posted a link to an overpriced ebay listing, everyone laughed, the seller was a forum member and threatened to sue the administration team for defamation and libel. If I still had that post I'd print it out, hang it on the wall and title it "The stupidest thing I have ever seen on the Internet".
Other high-dollar communities like arcade sales and service doesn't like people calling you out for Friends and Family transactions, because they use it to dodge taxes. Other places like amibay will simply expunge you because their logic is flawed to begin with.

I hope the mods and members at 68KMLA laughed at him some more and cross posted his ravings to some law forums so they can get a good laugh.... LOL. That is not how libel and defamation works. Forget the cost and time required to actually file a libel case (this goes into big court not small claims) a simple anti-SLAPP action would take care of it. Will there be people who pull this crap? Sure but they are as likely to get attention as eBay sellers constantly threatening to sue.

Since E-feelings are a thing, this forum has not allowed us to laugh at or otherwise be critical of someone's prices for a long time.

Yeah I miss the old sub-forum were we could post ridiculous eBay listings... The good old days... sigh

In regards to the current topic at hand though I think it is really easy to handle if the forum software had the ability to do a few things:

1. We could have a for FREE/RESCUE sub-forum. This is where people who actually want to prevent stuff going to e-waste can post/advertise. The requirements would be simple anything posted there has a price of $0. No how much is it worth, no interest checks, or other BS. If someone posts a thread that does not meet the criteria it should be deleted and the user warned and eventually banned for repeat offenses. "Rescuers" should be encouraged to post back if there were any shenangans or bait and switch going on.

2. First ten posts need to be moderated to check for quality. If the first post by a new user is trying to sell something it should not be cleared.

3. Require a minimum of one month of membership before posting in for sale. This will deter all scammers/flippers/time wasters/etc. These guys are just going around and posting to as many forums as they can to see if they will get a bite. If they have to wait a month and actively participate most will go away on their own.

4. This is something I don't think our forum software supports but would be a great add-on/upgrade to think about. I recently purchased some vintage audio-gear on an audio forum. At the end of the sale (once I had my item and the seller had their money) the forum allowed for the sale to be marked as complete, for FB to be left, and list the sale price. If we could have somethign similiar so that we organically build a "real" price list for items and evaluate both sellers and buyers that would be great.

 

[Shadow Lord]

What's the point of discussing it? The admins are going to do or not do what they see fit. This isn't a democracy

Well true but if the admins don't want to evolve with the times then that is also important info.

 

[Shadow Lord]

I feel like we have a lot of subforums already. For example, do we really need a separate auctions and for-sale subforum? Most people asking for an appraisal probably want to sell the item.

The auctions sub-forum is also for pointing out auctions we find. But yes, I am against any solution that adds ANOTHER subforum. We don't them.

Completly disagree. As time goes on and the hobby grows (or shrinks) we need to evolve. That means making changes. Also having subforums dealing with specific issues/topics helps keep discussions focused. Now does that mean we need a subforum for everything? No but to just be against any new subforums because "we have too many" is short sighted.

 

[NeXT]

I hope the mods and members at 68KMLA laughed at him some more and cross posted his ravings to some law forums so they can get a good laugh.... LOL. That is not how libel and defamation works. Forget the cost and time required to actually file a libel case (this goes into big court not small claims) a simple anti-SLAPP action would take care of it. Will there be people who pull this crap? Sure but they are as likely to get attention as eBay sellers constantly threatening to sue.

They didn't. There's something in the water over at 68KMLA land because they did the exact opposite to what makes logical sense.
They bent over and deleted the mockery and made it a rule not to say mean things about prices both on and off the forum, because someone tried to sue them. This in turn was taken advantage of by vendors posing as members who could then list items at whatever price they wanted and they were protected from ridicule by site-wide rules.
(seriously, there's a stereotype here. I'm not allowed to talk about it but this is something I'll be bitter about anytime someone remotely brings the subject up because it's so incredibly stupid what happened.)

 

[hunterjwizzard]

Completly disagree. As time goes on and the hobby grows (or shrinks) we need to evolve. That means making changes. Also having subforums dealing with specific issues/topics helps keep discussions focused. Now does that mean we need a subforum for everything? No but to just be against any new subforums because "we have too many" is short sighted.

Obviously there's a time and a place for new subforums. For example, as they get older, I have begun to think the Pentium IV era computing needs a separate subforum. Stuff like that? Sure.

In the specific use-case being discussed here, though, no. We should not add a new subforum. Here's why: no one will bother to check it. I couldn't tell you for the life of me how to price a Commodore64 or any kind of macintosh. I can't valuate most vintage hardware, in fact. So if there's a subforum just for "ask how much this is worth" I'm not going to look at it because most of the time I can't help in it. I suspect this is going to be the case for a lot of people: they know the values on the specific part of the hobby they take part it. But not the rest of it.

However, if someone posts over in one of the subforums I DO use about stuff I DO KNOW, then I can be helpful. Ergo, I feel the correct place to ask "How much is this worth?" is in the specific sub-forum for that type of hardware.

 

[Shadow Lord]

In the specific use-case being discussed here, though, no.

In this specific case there are many ways to handle/address the issue outside of a valuation sub-forum. Adding a "For FREE" forum can easily separate rescue operations and people who want to re-home items from people looking to sell. That is an important distinction and allows us to be more strict on who posts to "for sale" and be more lenient with postings to "for free".

 

[hunterjwizzard]

because someone tried to sue them.

Trying to sue people on the internet is always hilarious.

 

[hunterjwizzard]

In this specific case there are many ways to handle/address the issue outside of a valuation sub-forum. Adding a "For FREE" forum can easily separate rescue operations and people who want to re-home items from people looking to sell. That is an important distinction and allows us to be more strict on who posts to "for sale" and be more lenient with postings to "for free".

I didn't even realize we were discussing "For sale" vs. "For free" but I feel like people generally distinguish the free stuff easily be putting "FREE" in the subject line. I wouldn't say "no" to a separate "for sale"/"for free" board but I also won't champion the notion.

 

[Shadow Lord]

I didn't even realize we were discussing "For sale" vs. "For free" but I feel like people generally distinguish the free stuff easily be putting "FREE" in the subject line. I wouldn't say "no" to a separate "for sale"/"for free" board but I also won't champion the notion.

You are missing the point. The forum can't filter/apply restrictions based on post content (i.e it can't follow context) so you can't have a for sale forum where the posts for free items are more leniently treated vs. for sale items. The easiest way to achieve this is to have a separate forum for each. then you can have minimum posting requirements and membership times for one forum and not the other which I think is fair and appropriate toward the mission of the VCF and trying to prevent e-waste.

 

[djg]

Then it isn't working. I frequently see brand new user whose first post is I found this thing and I want $XXXXX dollars for it because it is R@R3 and L@@K or whatever...

Is there any forum rule they are violating? If not mods approve the post. I don't think there is a rule that prices have to be reasonable. I'm sure mods don't want to have to figure out what is reasonable. The one admin posting said that commenting on the price isn't appropriate on for sale items.