Disk imaging OS question

[desiv]

Quick backstory: I recently picked up a Kaypro II. It's asking for a disk, but the included floppies aren't booting it. So I decided to make some new ones. I have a Kryoflux, but I use that mostly for Amiga stuff. While it's great for that, I did some quick research and writing images back for something like CP/M for the Kaypro from .imd files didn't appear straight forward. I have a fair amount of hardware around, so I started scavenging. I found a 360K 5 1/4" drive in an OLD PC. And then I found a newer PC that also has USB. So I figured I'd start there. Removed the 3.5" floppy and replaced it with the 5 1/4" one. Set it up in in the BIOS and booted it, and eventually got the disk to spin with a DIR A:..
So far so good!
But this machine has XP. I saw people said to use Image Disk, and got a copy, but... It requires DOS.
Now, this machine supported booting from USB, so I used Rufus to setup a DOS USB boot disk and placed IMD and some imaged on it.
Figured out how to get that booted and then figured out (I think) IMD and I was able to write some disks.
Don't work in my Kaypro, but I am now thinking a drive problem in the Kaypro is likely the culprit. (It did not say it was working when I bought it...)
But I'd still like to have a way to make floppies.
Question is, what is a good setup. I can (and almost definitely will) install a different OS on this PC.
But which one?
DOS? Could do that, but seems maybe a bit of a waste of the hardware.
Win98SE? Possibly and gets me DOS at the base.
Linux? I have used Linux a fair amount, but I'm not sure about the software support for imaging. I am familiar with dd to write basic images. But would I need / want something like IMG and is there something like that?
And I course I could dual boot a couple of OSes.
So, what are your recommendations for OS and imaging software solutions for writing disk images?
...
Or do I just scrap it and bite the bullet and buy a GreaseWeazle? ;-)
Thoughts?
Thanx!

 

[krebizfan]

What are the exact specs of the system in question? Some choices will work better than others. What software do you plan on running on the machine when not imaging disks? I tend to think Win98 would cover the widest range of older games.

I used Win98SE along with Linux. Win98 handled all the direct hardware access and Linux provided a much easier USB data transfer. Triple booting to DOS was an option but I have another really old computer which I have used for FreeDOS testing and obviously also can boot MS-DOS if need be.

 

[Svenska]

If I had the hardware to write arbitrary floppy formats, then I would aim at getting it to work correctly first. It seems that a fair amount of third-party software can handle both Kryoflux and Greaseweazle hardware, so that may be another option for you. I prefer using my main machine to support my old machines, without having to go through an intermediate machine.

Of course, there is also the option of fitting the Kaypro with a Gotek device, which sidesteps the issue of writing compatible disks.

Neither Windows XP nor Linux are good options if you need to deal with non-standard formats. They do not allow programs to directly control the floppy controller. Windows 98 SE is a good choice, its built-in DOS is compatible enough.

 

[ldkraemer]

desiv,
The GreaseWeazle or Kryoflux is probably the easiest way to write the Floppy's for the Kaypro II.

There is a good Tutorial on the Kryoflux site:
https://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?p=8580


Linux would be another good option as it still supports floppy's. The /etc/mediaprm file supports writing
CP/M Floppy's. Debian or Ubuntu must be installed as it won't write from a BOOTED LiveCD or LiveUSB.

https://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=112244

It looks like the latest version of mediaprm has removed the KAYPRO definitions from the mediaprm
file.

# Kay II - SSDD 48 tpi 5.25" - 512 x 10
# seclen 512

"KAY200":
 SS DD sect=10 ssize=512

# Kay IV - DSDD 48 tpi 5.25" - 512 x 10
# seclen 512

"KAY400":
 DS DD sect=10 ssize=512

In early April I can write you a Floppy using my Kaypro, if you still need it.


Larry

 

[desiv]

desiv,
The GreaseWeazle or Kryoflux is probably the easiest way to write the Floppy's for the Kaypro II.

There is a good Tutorial on the Kryoflux site:
https://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?p=8580

Thanx.
I do have a Kryoflux, so that is probably a decent option moving forward. Thanx for that link!

I am seriously wondering if that floppy drive I got from my garage is actually working tho. So attaching it to the Kryoflux might not help.
I think I need to do some work around that.
I'm not familiar enough with that IMD tool to be relying that it is making good images.
Not that I don't think the tool works, but I am wondering if it isn't validating (I don't see an option for that) what it is writing.
When it wrights, I see an F and then a W, so I think it is "F"ormatting and then "W"riting, but I don't see a "V" for validating. or "R" for reading while it is writing.
So that floppy drive might not actually be working properly. I know the speed it good (IMD does let me view the speed), but maybe it isn't actually writing anything. ;-)

I do have the other drives that are IN the Kaypro, but of course I have to take them out of the Kaypro. ;-)
That said, I have to take that Kaypro apart anyway as I noticed that both the standoffs that hold the power supply to the back of the case are broken and need to be repaired/replaced. I could get one one of those other drives out and try that on my PC (or Kryoflux) for writing too.
Something quick I should do is do a full DOS (or FreeDOS) install so I can actually test that floppy in the PC. Rufus created a DOS USB boot stick for me, but it didn't come with any DOS tools, like format. And I can't format a 360K floppy in XP.
(Or I could just install Win98SE like I have been thinking about doing to that guy anyway.)

Thanx for the info/options!

 

[ldkraemer]

desiv,
If you can make a DOS Boot Computer I use FORMATMASTER Ver 2.19 and it works wonderful.
It will format a floppy and if it says it is good it really is. Of course you will also have to format it
with the Kaypro, but at least you know the floppy was formatted properly using DOS.

If you just select NO double step in IMD and 40 Tracks IMD should properly write the Kaypro Floppy
to a 360K DS/DD Floppy. You can also just write one side.


Larry

 

[desiv]

desiv,
If you can make a DOS Boot Computer I use FORMATMASTER Ver 2.19 and it works wonderful.
It will format a floppy and if it says it is good it really is.


Larry

Thanx!!!
Unfortunately, I just tried that and it worked. ;-)
I formatted a disk. It was successful. Verified it. Successful.
I went to DOS and typed "DIR A:" and it showed me an empty DOS disk.

Now, that is great that it worked. BUT....
That means my floppy drive isn't fake writing.

But it also means IMD is also probably successfully writing that disk and my Kaypro doesn't like it.
I was kind of hoping that would fail. ;-)

But this is good info. More info is always better when troubleshooting.
And that is a nice tool to have!

 

[ldkraemer]

Let me search my Laptop to see if I happen to have a boot floppy for my Kaypro II.
I doubt that I have one but I may have copied one to my Laptop at some point.

At least now you know the floppy is working and FMTMAS worked fine. I like this
older version better than the newer version. It has never let me down over the years.


Yes, I found a floppy, but it doesn't contain the Micro Cornucopia PRO8 Files.

$ cpmls -f kpii -D KPRO-II.IMD
     Name    Bytes   Recs  Attr     update             create
------------ ------ ------ ---- -----------------  -----------------
ASM     .COM     8K     64
BAUD    .COM     1K      6
CONFIG  .COM    12K     89
COPY    .COM     8K     60
DDT     .COM     5K     38
DUMP    .ASM     5K     33
DUMP    .COM     1K      4
ED      .COM     7K     52
LOAD    .COM     2K     14
MFDISK  .COM    22K    169
MOVCPM  .COM    10K     76
PIP     .COM     8K     58
STAT    .COM     6K     41
SUBMIT  .COM     2K     10
SYSGEN  .COM     1K      8
TERM    .COM     1K      6
XSUB    .COM     1K      6
   17 Files occupying    100K,      93K Free.

I have attached the file. Now to search for the PRO8 files.

Here is a ZIP of the PRO8 Files.

You will notice the *.COM files are shown as *.CPM, because they were copied to a DOS Computer and
for SAFETY they were modified by the Software to be *.CPM. Just rename them to *.COM
and they will run fine on the Kaypro II. Floppy's should be formatted and accessed with these files
if the PRO8 ROM is installed.

-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry  1280 Mar  6  2013 RESELECT.DOC
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry   128 Mar  6  2013 RESELECT.CPM
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry  1152 Mar  6  2013 PRO8SET.CPM
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry  1792 Mar  6  2013 PRO8#SET.CPM
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry  3456 Mar  6  2013 FORMAT2.CPM
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry 10880 Mar  6  2013 DISKTEST.DOC
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry  3072 Mar  6  2013 D.CPM
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry   640 Mar  6  2013 CURSOR.CPM
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry   640 Mar  6  2013 CRCKLIST.CRC
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry   512 Mar  6  2013 CRC.DOC
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry  2816 Mar  6  2013 CRC.CPM
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry  2688 Mar  6  2013 8DISKTST.CPM
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry  7552 Mar  6  2013 8COPY.CPM
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry  7680 Mar  6  2013 4COPY.CPM
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry  7552 Mar  6  2013 4#ON#8.CPM
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry  7680 Mar  6  2013 2#ON#8.CPM
-rw-r--r--   1 larry larry  7424 Mar  6  2013 -READ.ME

-READ.ME:

-READ.ME


You will not be able to boot this diskette. Boot your PRO8 system from
your usual system disk.  IMPORTANT: Make a copy of this disk and put it 
away in a safe place.

If you've done a speed-up modification to your Kaypro you need to switch
your machine back to 2.5MHz before attempting to use any of the COPY
programs.  When transferring files between different floppy formats and 
different drive types, it is more efficient to use PIP.COM. 

This disk contains all the files you will need to use and modify your
PRO8 system. One special case that did not get in the printed manual
is the use of a 96 tpi drive in A: and a 48 tpi drive in B:. The file
on this disk named RESELECT.DOC explains the process of creating your
first 96 tpi system disk. You will need to follow those directions if
and only if you have a 96 tpi drive in A: and a 48 tpi drive in B:. All
other combinations will cause no problems.  

Other New Files and their uses.....................................

PRO8+SET.COM    This program allows you to configure a 4 drive PRO8 
        system. You must have done the modifications described
        in issue #17 for creating the extra drive select signals
        and create a 63K CP/M in the following way.
                NOTE: If your system is presently set up with the 64K
                      version of ZCPR, you will need to get a copy of 
                      the 63K version (user disk K22) and reinstall it 
                      after you create a 63K system.  

        Make a copy of your CP/M system disk and boot it in drive
        A:. Create the 63K system by entering:

            MOVCPM 63 *

        When the program has completed (system warm boots) enter
            
            SYSGEN

        When asked for a source disk reply with a carriage return
        ( we will use the system image left in memory by MOVCPM).
        When asked for a destination disk reply with A:.

        After the new system is on the disk in A:, hit the reset
        button. The cold boot sign-on should say Kaypro 63K CP/M.

        You may now run PRO8+SET.COM.

FORMAT2.COM    This formatting program will create any format disk in
        any of the four disk drives. It should be used instead of 
                the copy programs that came with this disk.  It WILL NOT 
                generate system tracks.  Use SYSGEN.COM on your CP/M disk 
                to put on system tracks.
     


************** NOTES ON THE PRO 8 AND 4+ MODIFICATIONS ****************

When the prompt asks what kind of drive is A:, etc., these are hardware
dependent questions. Even though you are booting up with your old system
disk (ss/dd), you have to answer the questions with reference to the 
physical disk drive (i.e.,"8" for 96TPI drives,"4" for 48TPI single or
double sided drives). 

** CAUTION **** CAUTION **** CAUTION **** CAUTION **** CAUTION **
When working on the drive cables (NEAR THE SWITCHING POWER SUPPLY),
please disconnect the power cord from the power jack located at the 
rear of the cabinet.  Switching power supplies are touchy creatures. 

Drive Idiosyncrasies.

Jumper options for most drives are located directly behind or near the 
drive data cable edge connector.  Terminator resistor packs are located
near the jumper options and are usually socketed.   

************ 
TEAC DRIVES:
************

For those who are installing TEAC 55 series drives use FORMAT2 to format 
your disks.  This will eliminate errors on track zero that crop up when 
using one of the other formatters on this disk.  FORMAT2 will not generate 
system tracks. Use SYSGEN.COM on your CP/M disk to put on system tracks.

Teac drive ribbon connectors are mounted upside down from other drive 
manufacturers.  If you mix Teac drives with Tandon drives the drive data 
cable may be too short. 

To jumper the Teacs change the HS option to the HM option.  The drive select 
options are set by DS0-DS1.  Drive A: corresponds to DS0; drive B: 
corresponds to DS1, etc..  

********************
TANDON 101-4 DRIVES:
********************

To set up the jumpers do the following:
1. W9  open
2. W19 closed 
3. Jumper on W13 - sets up for 6ms step rate
4. W10 open
5. W11 open
6. W12 open
7. W14 open

To jumper drive select do the following:
1. W1 ==> drive A:
2. W2 ==> drive B:
3. W3 ==> drive C:
4. W4 ==> drive D:

The onboard processor only checks the jumper options upon power-up so make 
sure you power down after the jumpers have been set.

***********
CDC DRIVES:
***********

Make sure the "M" option is jumpered and drive selection is done by 
jumpering drive number 1 for drive A:; 2 for drive B: and so on.

************************
MITSUBISHI M4853 DRIVES:
************************

Move the HS jumper option to the HM option.  Drive select options are 
DS0-DS3, these correspond to drive A: - drive D: respectively.  The 
terminators are soldered in but there are 7 jumpers located behind the 
terminator.  Removing these jumpers isolates the terminator from the board.
  
4+ Notes:

Teac 55 series are half power drives, therefore four drives can operate 
off of the KAYPRO power supply with our 4+ decoder board.  Tandon or CDC 
drives (if you add drive C and D) will require their own power source.

Make sure you only have one terminator (resistor pack) located on the last 
physical drive of your system. Exceptions to this statement follow: 

If you are using 4 Teac 55 drives then the terminator needs only to be on 
drive D:.  If you are using drives (for C and D) that require their own 
power supply then a terminator is required on drive B: as well as on 
drive D:.  A 600 OHM terminating resistor pack should do the trick.  
This way when you need to take your KAYPRO and use it independent of your 
C: and D: drives, drive A: and B: will be protected by the terminator on 
B:. 

When installing the Plus-4 decoder board, one jumper is required to power 
the chip on the 4+ board.  On J6, pin 4 must be jumpered to +5 volts on 
the motherboard.  U81 pin 14 is convenient.

PRO 8 Notes:

Kaypro II to 4 conversion:   
When picking up A11 from U59 DO NOT bend out pin 2, just tack on to the 
exposed part of the pin.  Don't forget to change U73 to a 74S04, this 
faster part is critical for the select pulse from U72.

** CAUTION **
It is recommended that a 3 wire soldering iron be used on all modifications.
This will eliminate the probability of damage to any static sensitive chips
you may be soldering on.   

****        If you are having problems and have an old Kaypro check U82 (the
floppy disk controller). If it is a 1793 disregard the rest of this note.
If it is a 1791 you must do the side select circuit a little differently.
Bend out pin 6 of U73 and solder from this bent out pin to pin 32 of J6.
(Before you had jumpered from U73 pad 6 to J6 pin 32. Remove that jumper).
Now bend out pin 13 of U72 (the PIO). Jumper from this bent out pin to
the bent out pin 5 of U73. (Originally we jumpered to E40, remove that
jumper). The reason for this is that the original design of the Kaypro
used this line to strobe or test for busy on the unused side of the system
port. This arrangement was never used for anything but it tied up that
bit on the PIO. We are just avoiding that traffic by direct jumpering.

Larry

 

[desiv]

Let me search my Laptop to see if I happen to have a boot floppy for my Kaypro II.
I doubt that I have one but I may have copied one to my Laptop at some point.

OK,
HUGE progress!!!

I was able to get the Kaypro to boot!!!
I re-wrote the kaypro1.imd image to a floppy and got it to work, but...
Not with the original full height floppy that is in the Kaypro..
AND...
Not with the 2nd floppy that was B, but I removed the original and set B to A. That also failed.

What did work?
The floppy drive I was using to write the images!! I tried it once before and it failed, but that was because I didn't get all my jumpers on that drive correct.
I was setting it to drive 0 (in the PC, it is set for drive 1). But I had missed the RDY jumper. When in the PC working, it was not jumpered (just hanging).
So I set the RDY to jumpered and disk to 0 and when I added it to the Kaypro, it booted!!!!

It recognized that I was using the Pro-8 ROM but it wasn't configured.
So it asked me if Drive A was 40 or 80. I said 40. Then it asked me about drive B, and I said 40.
It then told me to run the proset command.
And then it dropped me into a CP/M prompt!!!
"dir" pulled up a directory!!!

I tried reading from drive B and that failed.

So, it appears I have a dead drive A and drive B.
I also wasn't able to get anything from drive C, but I haven't done much poking there. (and it didn't ask me the 40/80 question for drive C)

What I think I will do is get a Gotek and adapter and when that arrives, set that up as drive B.
I will eventually need a Pro-80 image so I can get that proset command too.

And then I can work on fixing those two (three?) floppies. I would prefer to have that full height drive working as A.
And then I could set up my currently working drive as B and the Gotek as C (if this ROM really supports three drives).

Anyway, PROGRESS!!!!

Thanx all!

 

[ldkraemer]

If any of those Floppy Drives are TANDON TM-100's there are several things that you need to VERIFY.
I sent you a DM (Direct Message) a few days ago. If you have anything that needs to be done on
those Tandon TM-100's, let me know. I have some 3D Resin Printed Parts.


Larry

 

[desiv]

If any of those Floppy Drives are TANDON TM-100's there are several things that you need to VERIFY.
I sent you a DM (Direct Message) a few days ago. If you have anything that needs to be done on
those Tandon TM-100's, let me know. I have some 3D Resin Printed Parts.


Larry

Thanx, and yep! Saw that DM! It definitely looks like I will need it.
The original drive is a full height, so I am thinking it is a Tandon, but won't know for sure until I pull it out.
I'm not familiar enough to recognize it while it's inside.
But I'd guess it is a Tandon. And I definitely want it working again if possible.
The latch is still working, so at least not obviously broken.
I do have a 3D printer, tho not a resin one.

I've done some computer repair work, but not much work on floppy drives. Been lucky so far.
Even my Macintosh 800K floppy is still ejecting fine. ;-)
But it looks like it's time for me to start getting into floppy refurb/repair. ;-)