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Frustratingly Hard to Source Mac Software

I was working on this over the weekend because I had it in mind and I ended up developing a simplified Windows Server appliance that ran off a dual core Atom, has 64gb of local storage and runs on a computer about the size of a brick with an ethernet interface. (in other words, it should run on just about anything made in the last 15 years, including the crappiest of netbooks and atom-based thin appliances) It solved the problem of getting files from Windows to the mac over IP and provides full Appletalk routing and file services while letting me administer it over RDP and drag and drop files without needing to do more than wait for it to boot. The only two drawbacks is that Windows Server has no local ability to bridge Appletalk on the Ethernet interface and a serial port that I can tell, so if you want to connect to a pre-Ethernet mac you would have to use some sort of an external bridge and that even with trimming the snapshot down the fully configured install and system state creates a 7.5gb file.

Now that being said, I was able to verify I could drop a file onto the shared folder from a Windows 11 machine and it was immediately accessible from your choice of Apple operating system between GS/OS 6 (externally bridged) and MacOS 9.2.2. I've sent the system snapshot off to two people for additional testing to see if a more universal VM snapshot could be released and additional support for FTP and NFS kinda creeped into the project scope (it's two extra checkboxes when setting up Windows) but I'm still hung on the Microsoft Licensing issue, so it can't be openly shared.

Edited: It's also worth noting, while unrelated that we confirmed that even if you and another party are running Windows and an NTFS filesystem, the process of attaching, uploading and downloading Mac files through Discord strips the resource fork.
 
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NeXT said:
I've sent the system snapshot off to two people for additional testing to see if a more universal VM snapshot could be released and additional support for FTP and NFS kinda creeped into the project scope (it's two extra checkboxes when setting up Windows) but I'm still hung on the Microsoft Licensing issue, so it can't be openly shared.
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FWIW, the aforementioned A2Server package (which is essentially a bundle of scripts for setting up Netatalk) will run on any Debian-like Linux, which means it runs fine on Raspberry Pis. (Including the Zero.) The name "a2server" is reflective of the fact that it automatically configures everything to netboot an Apple IIgs (including downloading the OS distribution and utilities from Asimov), but the resulting server works perfectly well with old Macs. It's pretty easy to stack this with Samba, NFS, FTP, or whatever else you want. You can even toss in macipgw and provide TCP/IP services to allow localtalk macs to access the internet. If someone wanted to it'd be pretty easy to cook up a VM image or compressed image you could expand onto an SD card... although considering there are already NAS-optimized linux distributions it might be kind of redundant, since pretty much all that needs to be modified is the Netatalk config.

Anyway, for something freely available this is *probably* a better angle than Windows Server, but... if people really want Windows then I guess it's good to know there's an option there.

NeXT said:
Windows Server has no local ability to bridge Appletalk on the Ethernet interface and a serial port that I can tell
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That's not uniquely a Windows problem. Normal PC serial ports (including USB dongles) can't do the necessary flavor of RS-422, full stop.

A few years ago someone made a USB-to-Localtalk dongle based on a PIC microcontroller, along with Linux software support for doing bridging/etc. I have no experience with it, with this it appears an alternative to ancient stand-alone Appletalk bridges (or ISA cards, etc) does exist. The links on that github show most of the sources for pre-built versions of it "sold out" but there are gerbers for a Raspberry Pi hat on github.
 
Note that the current "stable" branch of A2SERVER posted on github is the last "classic" release using the now deprecated Netatalk 2.4.

A newer branch of A2SERVER in development is running current Netatalk 4.x and Samba (with vfs_fruit extensions for macOS machines using SMB) side-by-side. Most of the effort has been getting the core A2SERVER working with current distros AND switching everything over to the new Netatalk extended attributes backend for storing AppleDouble data (Finder Info, resource forks). Additionally support was added for the TashTalk LocalTalk RPi hat and LToUDP support to connect emulators like minivmac to the server and physical networks using TashRouter. Right now, its a turnkey solution for those with a RPi to do Apple II netbooting, LocalTalk-to-Ethernet bridging, AppleTalk printing, and file sharing on a network. The same can be done with a VirtualBox VM and bridged networking as well, except for the TashTalk part.

Also, RetroNAS exists, but I haven't tested this.

Besides A2SERVER, I have been contributing bug fixes and enhancements to upstream projects. The biggest is the Netatalk project. Grafting AppleTalk support back into the code base and getting 4.0 out the door was...interesting to say the least. Also managed to squash some really annoying and sometime ancient protocol bugs (both at the TCP/IP DSI level and AFP level). The GlobalTalk crowd helped immensely here as it provided a surge of testing and install base that Netatalk hasn't seen in close to a decade (particularly the AppleTalk code and print spooler). Some of this lead to further bug reports to the Open Printing folks and CUPS.

In addition, I did testing and bug fixes for both the TashTalk and TashRouter projects. I somehow managed to have LocalTalk devices that exposed bugs in the original firmware releases. Having a stack of Shiva/Kinetics Fastpaths helps too.
 
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FWIW, the aforementioned A2Server package (which is essentially a bundle of scripts for setting up Netatalk) will run on any Debian-like Linux
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It's a known fact that Linux has been banned in many countries around the world because of it's repeated use as a torture method.

NeXT-landia is one such country which does not accept Linux as a solution. Praise be to Windows. :P


Note that the current "stable" branch of A2SERVER posted on github is the last "classic" release using the now deprecated Netatalk 2.4.
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And it's little things like this that made me swear-off using linux in 2008. I'm not using a klunky solution that dumps people into package and dependency hell, where graphics are an option and the version numbers matter. Likewise I cannot recommend that kind of torture to other people who are considerably less technologically inclined.
 
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NeXT said:
It's a known fact that Linux has been banned in many countries around the world because of it's repeated use as a torture method.
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NeXT said:
And it's little things like this that made me swear-off using linux in 2008. I'm not using a klunky solution that dumps people into package and dependency hell, where graphics are an option and the version numbers matter.
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2008, huh? Okay. Whatever floats your boat.

Funny, I don't remember it being that hard (IE, no "dependency hell") the last time I installed A2Server. But, well, Netatalk 2.x, depreciated as it might be, was still getting updates only a year ago, so clearly everything must be a total dumpster file again, completely out of nowhere.

njroadfan said:
A newer branch of A2SERVER in development is running current Netatalk 4.x and Samba (with vfs_fruit extensions for macOS machines using SMB) side-by-side. Most of the effort has been getting the core A2SERVER working with current distros AND switching everything over to the new Netatalk extended attributes backend for storing AppleDouble data (Finder Info, resource forks). Additionally support was added for the TashTalk LocalTalk RPi hat and LToUDP support to connect emulators like minivmac to the server and physical networks using TashRouter. Right now, its a turnkey solution for those with a RPi to do Apple II netbooting, LocalTalk-to-Ethernet bridging, AppleTalk printing, and file sharing on a network. The same can be done with a VirtualBox VM and bridged networking as well, except for the TashTalk part.
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It sounds great; I haven't mucked with the IIgs in ages and I also have a Mac LC3 I should, you know, see if it actually works, so I'll have to keep an eye on this development and give the new version a spin sometime. Is MacIPGW part of the standard feature set yet?
 
Eudimorphodon said:
Funny, I don't remember it being that hard (IE, no "dependency hell") the last time I installed A2Server. But, well, Netatalk 2.x, depreciated as it might be, was still getting updates only a year ago, so clearly everything must be a total dumpster fire again, completely out of nowhere.
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Think about what you are saying here. We're talking about mac users, not invested nerds. P:
I'm already trying to aid people who are not computer savvy. I will NOT get them started on guiding them through a command line and a very alien operating system neither of us have used for a long time, if ever. While everyone hates Windows I don't have to reinvent the wheel because the process to make Windows share files with a mac has been solved for almost 30 years and the process has changed very little. They just want to install Adobe Photoshop 3 on their Performa but like we started off with, there's no simple means to go from the major file repositories to your 8.1 desktop because classic mac people seemingly love to torment themselves. My simplified solution to them (in this instance at least) was a file proxy, or a basic server.
In an hour and a half I resolved my issue in-house with a Windows Server CD that:
-Generated a resource fork-friendly filesystem
-Installed the operating system (don't ask about the key)
-Selected additional packages from Add/Remove Software
-Configured the Ethernet interface
-Created the user account that the mac could connect with
-Shared the folder on the LAN
-Connected to the share using the mac and the PC

Within 48 hours it was deployed as a VM image that I sent to them, they ran and boom, it worked and if they wanted to play around with the settings and enable other features like printer sharing they could do it graphically and not be afraid how the controls worked because it's the Windows UI.
I find it cute that an open-source solution (multiple even!) is available, but I'm not going to keep someone engaged long enough to get it working.
 
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I'm not on best relations with Linux, but I do have to concede that the Netatalk 4.0 distribution offers some of the best solutions we have for current vintage Mac users in [Current Year]. It's the most modern and once you get it set up, is quite rock-solid. The principle maintainers, rdmark and njroadfan, can be considered subject matter experts in a number of technical considerations of AppleTalk, and they've done a lot of work to bring back DDP back into the modern times.

I've heard your complaint about jumpstarting an old Mac. A 7.5.3 bootable volume was made with FTP, AppleShare, terminal clients and the stuff you need to get something from the internet downloaded and installed, and should boot anything from a Plus up to the last 9500 series spec machines. You just download it, unzip it, copy it to a microSD card, insert it into a BlueSCSI device, and boot.

If you want to use a modern Windows distribution and have DDP over AppleTalk, you have two primary options: A) Use a Linux VM with netatalk 4.0; B) Use something like QEMU with a TAP bridge.
 
NeXT said:
Edited: It's also worth noting, while unrelated that we confirmed that even if you and another party are running Windows and an NTFS filesystem, the process of attaching, uploading and downloading Mac files through Discord strips the resource fork.
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Extended attributes do not exist in HTTPS and other network protocols, so that is not surprising. The whole concept of storing parts of the file inside the file system but outside the data area on modern systems is ... fragile, to say the least. But as long as you stay on your NTFS-formatted box...

NeXT said:
but I'm still hung on the Microsoft Licensing issue, so it can't be openly shared.
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If we are talking about "Mac users, not invested nerds", then a Raspberry Pi based solution to simply be dropped into the local network might actually be better. It can be shared as a ready-made image (to be written with the official installer), no need to fiddle with Linux or anything. Just provide instructions on where to buy compatible hardware and that's it.
 
NeXT said:
Within 48 hours it was deployed as a VM image that I sent to them, they ran and boom, it worked and if they wanted to play around with the settings and enable other features like printer sharing they could do it graphically and not be afraid how the controls worked because it's the Windows UI.
I find it cute that an open-source solution (multiple even!) is available, but I'm not going to keep someone engaged long enough to get it working. Most people who are not total dorks are not going to do it either.
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If you want a pre-built VM image, then just ask. I've setup SFM and PCMacLan (much easier BTW) on Windows before. The problem with XP/2003 is always going to be the SMB server doesn't support newer clients without making changes on said clients. FWIW, Netatalk does have a Webmin interface if you want graphical.
NeXT said:
Edited: I also don't care about printer sharing or netbooting as it's all scope creep. We are talking basic file sharing to resolve your existing stupidity and your solution is additional stupidity piled on top of even more and unecessary stupidity so lets at the very least for the end user which is none of us make as little amounts of stupid as possible.
Your netboot code doesn't even work on the correct physical layer. Your code sucks. Use Appleshare Server for that, which means get a classic mac which means find the install disks online which means.....oh hey, here we are again at my original complaint.
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The netboot code was reverse engineered by others many years ago and works fine. It works over Ethernet (if Apple released their official card) or LocalTalk with a bridge. The whole point of the A2SERVER project was to automate installing the required boot blocks and setup a net install of ProDOS 8 and GS/OS. The use case for printing is there too. Plenty of shops have modern printers/plotters but want to continue to use their legacy Mac software.
 
NeXT said:
I find it cute that an open-source solution (multiple even!) is available, but I'm not going to keep someone engaged long enough to get it working. Most people who are not total dorks are not going to do it either.
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Literal children can usually handle installing Linux on a Raspberry Pi, but yes, I guess I’ll concede that expecting that level of cognitive flexibility from most adults is far too much to ask. Although, I guess I have to put this out there: who *not* a “total dork” cares about a single thing in this thread, *especially* thirty year old Macintoshes?

All this yelling and whining has made it crystal clear you haven’t actually touched Linux since 2008. I would recommend anyone reading this screed factor that in when weighing the value of the opinions contained within.
 
Eudimorphodon said:
All this yelling and whining has made it crystal clear you haven’t actually touched Linux since 2008. I would recommend anyone reading this screed factor that in when weighing the value of the opinions contained within.
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Just because Windows has gotten worse since 2008 doesn't automatically mean Linux has gotten better.

Why Linux is not ready for the desktop, the final edition

itvision.altervista.org itvision.altervista.org

The city of Munich, Germany wasted a lot of money finding out that "Linux is hard to update, hard to keep current, free is not really free, support is limited, and open source software can lead to incompatibilities with the rest of the world" (the article's words, not mine):
www.itprotoday.com

Linux on the Desktop Fails in Germany

What happened to Linux on the desktop? We may be getting closer to finding out.
www.itprotoday.com www.itprotoday.com
 
vwestlife said:
The city of Munich, Germany wasted a lot of money finding out that "Linux is hard to update, hard to keep current, free is not really free, support is limited, and open source software can lead to incompatibilities with the rest of the world" (the article's words, not mine):
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Although the facts that Microsoft provided favourable contract terms, full migration services and opened a large office in the city may have helped, too.
 
It's funny that for some big tech firms, Windows seems like it's harder to deal with than Linux from an IT support standpoint. If you want a Windows laptop, you'll need a sign-off from a director or higher, and what you get is as cordoned-off and warily monitored as an old WWII bomb discovered yesterday in someone's back garden.
 
That's because pretty much all Windows software used by Corporations is sold with either a site license or per seat arrangement that IT has to constantly monitor in case of an audit, plus anything a user installs can be a trojan horse. Windows is targeted because everyone uses it, and there are exploits around to break in. It's not like mega corps use any old Linux distro to run their database back ends.
 
Well one thing I have seen over the years is that people are willing to spend a ton of money on Mac hardware but tend to just download all software. Same goes for most PC users.

I spend a few bucks over the years to make sure I had working floppy drives to install my boxed 68K/PPC software. And I always tried to image my disks expecting bit rot to show up sooner or later.
 
maxtherabbit said:
Of course a thread about MACINTOSH software has to degenerate into windows vs linux
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Yep. I mean, to be clear, all I did was chuck out a reminder that if the criteria you want to satisfy for a NAS software bundle compatible with obsolete protocols was “freely available” this is *very much* a solved problem in the open source world, and the result was an absolute meltdown.

I get it, there’s some people out there that are just never going to get over a RedHat installer calling their mother fat in 1999, but man, the level of pent up anger is something to behold. Can’t even mention it without getting a stream of insults that, come on kids, ever hear of “glass houses”?
 
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