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Has anyone seen the IBM 5100 going on eBay?

smp

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It's been a dream of mine to acquire one of these.
It started with a bid for $5.00...


smp
 
Think its real (the bids)?

If I could get half that for my 5110-3 Id sell it today! I know that thing is gonna bring me much needed cash one day. I mean its an 8" floppy machine.. You dont need to deal with rebuilding gooey tape deck rollers and rebuilding tape cartidges.
 
It's a running BASIC/APL machine with good amount of memory expansion. It's in good shape but doesn't have the Communications feature. It's definitely more than I would spend but working examples with BASIC and APL are getting harder to find. Maybe someone got a killer tax refund and always wanted one of these? :)
 
is it poasible to convert the BASIC only machines to also include APL? mine is BASIC only like most.

And where does iy show the memory for that machine in the listing?
 
There are two or three extra cards, a different front panel (to accommodate an extra switch to switch between BASIC and APL) and pretty much a different wiring harness to the front panel because of the switch. The APL screen shows 28k of available memory in the bottom right. I think that equates to 48k or so of memory installed. I don't recall. 16K is the base model memory configuration. It may have as much as 64K which is the maximum. If the CRT wasn't blocking the memory cards, you would be able to tell easily.
 
It's not clear to me that APL is functional on this machine: we don't see a screen with "CLEAR WS", and all the images with the language selector switch in the APL position also have DISPLAY REGISTERS enabled for some reason. Then again, if you don't know APL very well, it might not be totally obvious that a working APL interpreter is a working APL interpreter.

The screen you've identified as an APL screen is actually BASIC; APL doesn't have the "status line" showing "READY" and memory available. I think this is a 32K machine like mine.
 
You are right. Sorry for the mis-information. It IS showing BASIC. I looked at the switches and it is switched both ways. It would have been much better if there were pictures both ways but perhaps any interested seller would reach out and ask for that confirmation. I know I would want to know.

The seller also needs a picture of the other side of the card cage to confirm what memory cards are in there.
 
I remember when I first started collecting computers in around 2009 or 2010 you could still get these pretty reasonable. Wish I had gotten one then, because it looks like I probably won’t ever have one now.

Such an awesome looking system.

I’d take a 5110 also, but I’m sure those are not reasonable anymore either.

I am glad that for that price it’s likely going to someone who wants the whole system, and not just the keyboard.

As far as my thoughts of someone gutting a 5100 to make a USB keyboard, it’s nasty, you don’t want to know… I don’t like keyboarders, let’s just leave it at that.
 
I vaguely recall a year or two ago there was a 5110 that went up on ebay, it sold for less through a local-ish buyer but in the process the keyboard disappeared.
To pay several hundred dollars on the side and receive something with such an essential piece missing, man, I'd be PISSED.
 
The one being offered here is a 32K system. The 5100 had 8K RWS modules (16K per slot, up to 4 slots = 64K total). You can also tell from the register display, where 0x00AB == 0x7FFF (the bootup ROS initializes this "end of RWS" marker, row 5 and 6 about 3/4th of the way on the right in the auction image). On the 5110, those use 16K RWS modules (32K per slot, up to 2 slots = 64K total). I'm not sure if the RWS modules are interchangeable between the two systems (I suspect not, but the PALM Controller card is).


The (BASIC) Language Support section of the 5100 MIM (6-3) indicates that the User Work Area in BASIC starts at 0x111E (4382 bytes), this is why you only see ~28K available on the BASIC screen. You get slightly more workspace in the APL mode. On the 5110, this information is in the BASIC User Guide (Storage Considerations) "In all models, approximately 4K bytes are used for system-related functions." (registers, the screen buffer 64x16 = 1K for that, IO buffer, and basically scratch areas for the emulators).

Also some other fun notes about the core PALM processor:

16-bit Address, 8-bit ALU
Registers stored in the first 128 bytes of RWS (i.e. NOT onboard the processor)
(16x 2-byte registers per 4x interrupt levels)
[this is why the 32L/32R switch is 32-- to "zoom in" on those set of 16-registers, where each of its 2 bytes is shown "vertically" when in Register mode]
Oscillator/clock = 15.1MHz, MCC (multiclock cycle) = I-phase (instruction) and E-phase (execute)
I-phase = 3x I-cycles = 3x pulses 8x pulses 3x pulses, or 14 pulses total)
E-phase = 1 to 5 E-cycles = either 3x pulses or 8x pulses (depends on instruction)


NOTE: from software, you can turn off the display to speed up processor (the display does some "cycle stealing" to stay refreshed). I believe also just using the L32 or R32 mode also speeds things up.


The 5100 also had an "Expansion Feature" in Slot B that could either be "Communication Card" or Async Comm/Serial IO. In the 5100 MIM is the following diagram: the upper rear connector port is for Serial I/O (Async Comm), and the lower rear connector is for the Communications Adapter (it wasn't quite yet called a Modem or BSCA/DDSA device yet, that terminology came with the 5110).

1654143676414.png


There is a mention in the 5100 MIM that when using the Async Comm / Serial IO, the 5100 strictly becomes a "2740 terminal only" (and neither BASIC or APL is available - I think you use the DCP to load the IMF program that uses this comm capability, so you're basically stuck in a Telix/QModem/Procom terminal-like program of some sort). I don't think you could program your own terminal from within BASIC or APL (but you could write one in machine code, which is essentially what the IMF program is).


The 5110 expanded upon the communication features by offering:

- Parallel I/O card (that offered some kind of IEEE-488 interface)
- Binary Synch. Comm. Adapter (Expansion Feature) [BSCA, 2770 or 3741 terminal]
integrated modem, Digital Data Service Adapter (DDSA), external modem (EIA RSR232C or CCITT V.24 V.28)



So, I'm not sure if it's 16-bit... The registers are somewhat artificially 16-bit, since the system just reserves 2-bytes of RWS/RAM for those registers. The addressing is still byte addressable, and the ALU is 8-bit. Again, that's native specs of the PALM processor (which also I'm not sure if it's fair to call it 15MHz, but that is technically what the clock is at). All that is used to emulate a (sort of) 32-bit system (System/3 in the BASIC case, System/370 in the APL case). The BASIC ROS *is* System/3 machine code/opcodes, that gets interpreted and executed in terms of native PALM opcodes (similarly for the APL ROS, which on the 5100 is ~96K -- it still 16-bit addressed, but is a full "word"/32-bit per address; on the 5110 the APL ROS is ~120K, using legit System/370 machine code -- and in the Controller ROS {PALM} reverse engineered, you find code like "if this_system_370_opcode then emulate_it_like_this_using_my_PALM_instructions"). And note, this is why the performance scores of the 5100/5110 around 1980 weren't that stellar (compared to some other contemporary systems) -- because it sort of had the Java JVM effect going on, 20 years before Java was a thing -- however, it could run a lot of existing mainframe software (OR you use the device to remote-desktop into a mainframe, and run/develop your stuff there).


To me, the IBM 5100 is interesting because right at about the same time you had the Altair 8800 and the IBM 5100 -- fairly extremely opposite ends of the "first personal computer" spectrum, one being ~$500 kit and the other being a $20k dream-machine. In today's money, that $20k in 1975 is about $100k. I estimate average income in 1975 at about $15k (data entry, accountants, etc.) - so from a business perspective, the IBM 5100 just had to replace about 2 or 3 employees (which is rather heartless, but - business is business) to justify the cost -- also, as office equipment, it had a tax write-off.

The thing is, IBM kept the PALM machine code fairly "secret" about the 5100 (their internal documentation about it is marked "CONFIDENTIAL"). That's why I'm curious about why Harry Katzan epic 500+ page "5100 Portable Computer" book doesn't even mention it (no mention of DCP, PALM, System/XYZ anything) - was he too unaware of this capability (the built in machine-code entry)? It is obscure in the 5100 MIM manuals (Appendix C has the native PALM opcodes, but no examples -- and that appendix was entirely removed for the 5110 MIM, even though it's exactly the same processor. It's why I was hoping to reach Mr. Katzan, to see if he has any specific recollection (could just be a simple "not in scope of the book" reason). As for why IBM marked it CONFIDENTIAL -- maybe not just for business IP reasons, but also perhaps for international-competition reasons (cold war and all that).


On the other hand, would it have mattered? i.e. the folks who were interested and afford a cost-one-year-salary system like the IBM 5100 probably weren't interested in learning any machine code to write software. They had a business to run and wanted payroll, accounting, inventory software -- from which there was nearly a decade of mainframe software ready to "bum" from. At the opposite spectrum (before Bill's under 4K BASIC for the Altair), that base system was flipping switches and STORing machine codes one instruction at a time - but with a processor the size of your thumb and stamped out in millions (as opposed to the PALM being the size of a book, and "CONFIDENTIAL"). Then the Sol-20 showed how to really "kit-out" an Altair. What a wild time; Gates wrote his "stop stealing my BASIC" letter, while a whole generation was bumming software off mainframes to kickoff startup software contracting shops; those mostly-college-folks of the 60s that wrote all that pioneering software are unsung heroes (from compilers, assemblers, emulators, to also accounting, inventory, payroll, etc.). Of course, they in turn built upon the electronic pioneers of the 30s/40s, and the very early compilers of the 1950s...


NOTE the BASIC of the IBM 5100/5110 doesn't have a PEEK/POKE capability (at least as far as I've been able to determine), so you can't write directly to memory (e.g. to POKE the screen memory and PEEK keyboard inputs). I'm not sure if it is a missing capability (wasn't available on the mainframes), or a not-yet-thought-of capability, but it's the prime reason someone might want to use native PALM machine code (and to interact with the IO ports at the back, to maybe do some industrial automation stuff -- which it is said PALM was used in some other such applications).



And someone asked about adding APL to a BASIC-only 5100... Hate to say a hard "no", but It's not trivial - it's not just inserting the APL ROS cards and done. Slot H has an "APL Supervisor" which is probably omitted on the BASIC-only systems. If you had a wrecked APL 5100 (like crushed keyboard, blown out CRT), but somehow all the cards were still good -- you could salvage those cards and place all those cards into a BASIC 5100 (I think the overall wiring on the A1 board is identical between them). But as someone mentioned, then the next step is some adjustment to the A1 board Z3 connector is needed to get the machine to recognize the desire to bootup in APL mode. I do think the MIM would have enough information to figure out how to do that, but it would never look "quite factory" (you could drill into the front panel and make a pretty close approximation). I don't think a change to the keyboard would be necessary - obviously the keycaps wouldn't have the APL symbols, but electrically I think you'd press keys (as marked in the MIM) and the APL symbols would show up on the screen (since you've transplanted all the APL cards over, the Display should have that font set).

Note that the APL ROS has been extracted (for both 5100 and 5110). We're still working on a viable 5100 emulator -- but there are a couple 5110 emulators (that run the actual APL ROS) that can give you a taste of APL programming without needing the actual hardware. Like maybe to compress/encrypt your private keys in some obscure APL matrix code, using an extremely obscure instruction set that just isn't cost effective to bother hacking.
 
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Another interesting aspect of the 5100.... Recall the Altair, Sol-20, original trinity -- none of them had system fans. The 5100 was intended as a portable system, which means intended for use outside of air condition environments (construction site, or ... a battlefield). In the 70s, there were plenty of offices that just didn't have A/C. So it has a powerful system fan. I still suspect that fan is not essential if you're in a typical air conditioned room. Then again, if it is running at 15MHz, maybe the electronics do get toasty? Cooling was a big deal on the early mainframes (part of the expense was modifying the building to accommodate the cooling needs of the system). The 5100/5110 system fan is directed to take air in, push it across the A1 cards (elaborate kind of "horn" to do so), and then push the air out on vents at the left side of the case (curiously, there is little to none air flow directed over the PSU itself, just a few backside open-air vents). The system fan sucks air in from the vents near the external screen connector, but there is a divider between that system fan the PSU -- it may suck in a little air to pull it across the PSU, but IMO barely so.

Anyhow, the 5100/5110 is annoyingly noisy because of that fan :) [ and the tape drive belt ]
 
The 5100 also had an "Expansion Feature" in Slot B that could either be "Communication Card" or Async Comm/Serial IO.

The one tell-tail sign if a 5100/5110 has the Communication feature is the keyboard label is different. I would expect that even if put in post-production as an upgrade, they would still change the keyboard label.

IBM_5100_COMMs.JPG
 
@snuci re the labeling: do you know if IBM used a three-row label for both kinds of communications expansion feature, or just one of the two options? (I have neither; just curious.)

@voidstar78 basically said as much, but the DISPLAY REGISTERS close-up was taken while the machine was in BASIC mode --- compare with this photo from my 5100 in the same situation:


Here's how the DISPLAY REGISTERS screen looks in APL mode:


You can see there's a bit more activity in the lower half of the screen there. The auction photos have only one image of the screen in DISPLAY REGISTERS mode while the language selector switch is in APL mode, and the quality is too limited for me to make a useful comparison. So I still don't know whether this 5100 has a functioning APL or not.
 
do you know if IBM used a three-row label for both kinds of communications expansion feature, or just one of the two options? (I have neither; just curious.)

I am not sure. I have a 5100 with the Comms label that has just the Communication Adapter connector on the back (#4 from the diagram above). I am not sure if the Serial/IO was removed or just not present.

I also have a 5120 with the Comms label (has BASIC and APL also) and it has both the Serial I/O connector and the Communication Adapter connector.

So I am not sure if perhaps the Serial I/O connector was an add-on to the Communication Adapter. You can see a picture of the I/O Cable Driver card here that has two sets of flat ribbon cables for the extra rear ports. https://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/IBM-5100-IO-Cable-Driver-Installed-at-A.jpg
 
The 5100 was intended as a portable system, which means intended for use outside of air condition environments (construction site, or ... a battlefield). In the 70s, there were plenty of offices that just didn't have A/C.

We've batted this theory around earlier, but I still think the fan would be a good idea even in a cool office environment. By your measurements, the 5110's electronics are dissipating 70-80 watts in an enclosed space that has about the same volume as a loaf of bread (and with an unvented "lid" on top as well --- that is, the A1 board, which would probably do a good job of restricting convection). In this setting, absent some really fancy heat sinking that isn't around, I think forced air cooling sits somewhere between "a really wise idea" and "basically essential".

The 5100 MIM actually advises disabling the fan in some of its troubleshooting steps (e.g. PDF page 175) so that the extra heat can make an intermittent failure happen more regularly. It tells you to do this "for no more than 15 minutes". PDF page 176: "Try to force the failure... by: ... Raising the machine temperature (unplug the blower). CAUTION Do not exceed 20 minutes." PDF page 177: "CAUTION Do not exceed 20 minutes of machine operation without fan running and covers installed."

Running fanless has its official uses, and those uses are: making the machine break for diagnostic purposes :)

PS: why weren't the Pet or other early micros fan-cooled themselves? a few reasons come to mind
- more open spaces for convection: the logic cards in the 5100/5110 are pretty densely packed
- fewer components/more integration
- possibly cooler-running components
- they weren't IBM and had lower standards
- well-populated/expanded specimens sometimes did wind up getting modded to have fans anyway

No matter what the reason is for their designs, the 5110 is its own machine, and it gives you: 70 watts in a tiny box. You have got to get rid of it!
 
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Good find, I missed those CAUTION tidbits in the 5100 MIM.

Couple shots of the 5110 cards while the board is "flipped out". This is the cards running after about 3-5 minutes from a cold start.

1654197066376.jpeg


1654197078925.jpeg

The system fan is basically the same kind used in a kitchen microwave (not sure what they're actually called, but a cylinder type fan).
 
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