Is the mac se radius accelerator rare machine

[siliboi]

I’m curious if these are rare I haven’t seen any on eBay yet what do they do?

 

[GiGaBiTe]

You're going to have to be more specific. Radius made all sorts of accelerator boards. If you don't have an exact model number, take a picture of it. Any sort of compact Mac accelerator these days are rare, but more and more of them have been cloned and have gerber files available for them to be produced again.

If it has a CPU like a 68020/030 on it, it's a CPU accelerator. If it has a video port on the back of the machine, it's for an external display.

Any sort of CPU accelerator is highly beneficial on a compact Mac, because of their slow 8 MHz 68000s. They usually can't do anything about the maximum memory, but having a faster CPU makes them much more usable. I have a 25 MHz 68030+68881 TotalSystems Gemini Ultra in my Mac SE. It's one of the few accelerators that has additional memory on it, so it doesn't have to rely on the slow 16 bit wide memory on the main logic board.

 

[siliboi]

You're going to have to be more specific. Radius made all sorts of accelerator boards. If you don't have an exact model number, take a picture of it. Any sort of compact Mac accelerator these days are rare, but more and more of them have been cloned and have gerber files available for them to be produced again.

If it has a CPU like a 68020/030 on it, it's a CPU accelerator. If it has a video port on the back of the machine, it's for an external display.

Any sort of CPU accelerator is highly beneficial on a compact Mac, because of their slow 8 MHz 68000s. They usually can't do anything about the maximum memory, but having a faster CPU makes them much more usable. I have a 25 MHz 68030+68881 TotalSystems Gemini Ultra in my Mac SE. It's one of the few accelerators that has additional memory on it, so it doesn't have to rely on the slow 16 bit wide memory on the main logic board.

I’m. Not 100% sure yet I put an offer in on some machines it looks like it says accelerator 16

But I’ll know more vr soon I assume the fact that it speeds it up makes it worth more but it has accelerator badging which I’ve never seen before so I assumed that makes it worth more

 

[seat safety switch]

I think the Radius 16 is a full 68020 plus 68882 FPU. It's a good upgrade for those machines.

 

[Istarian]

@GiGaBiTe It seems a bit silly to call the stock hardware configuration for the time "slow" simply because you have faster options now.

That said, do you think that the CPU speed is the bigger factor or is the "problem" the 16-bit external data bus and memory used?

 

[NeXT]

Given how limited the number of accelerators were for the SE, I'm going to assume the only thing Radius had was the Radius SE Accelerator. - https://wiki.preterhuman.net/Radius_SE_Accelerator

I've seen exactly one and it was nearly 15 years ago at The Hackery and I never got the chance to actually see how much better it was compared to a normal SE. I have no recent experience with it but the internet seems to imply that unless you have a ROM upgrade (the dumps of which do not appear to be online...) you are stuck with System 6 which IMO for a 68020 is fine but in this day and age unless one falls into your lap it's probably better to save the PDS slot for ethernet or the PC 5.25" card.

 

[seat safety switch]

I didn't realize there were custom ROMs. If you do end up getting this configuration, it would be worth finding someone who is willing to dump those for you.

 

[NeXT]

I'm interpreting from a 68KMLA thread. It seems to be the ROMs on the accelerator board, rather than the ROMs on the SE.

 

[Unknown_K]

The Radius SE accelerators are the only ones I ever seen. I have 2 of them both 16's I think with the video expansion card for the Radius Full Page Display (which I don't have).

They are pretty speedy, but you are giving up ethernet unless you use a SCSI to Ethernet adapter (which I do have).

 

[GiGaBiTe]

@GiGaBiTe It seems a bit silly to call the stock hardware configuration for the time "slow" simply because you have faster options now.

Nice straw man argument there. Nobody said anything about comparing the Mac SE to modern anything.

The Mac SE was slow when it was released in 1987, and even slower for the FDHD spec in 1989. The machine had the same ~7.8 MHz 68000 that the original 1984 model did and had largely similar performance due to the CPU having to manage everything in software. The only difference was the higher RAM ceiling of 4 MB, SCSI, ADB and 1.44M floppies in the FDHD spec. The 4 MB RAM ceiling would prove to be a serious limitation of the hardware as memory demands exploded in the late 80s and early 90s with System 7. Apple could have had up to 16 MB on the 68000, but to maintain backwards compatibility with software, they had to keep system devices peppered all over the 68000 address space. Some accelerators like the TotalSystems Gemini can use the 68030 MMU to remap those devices to other locations and allow a larger chunk of memory to be used.

In mid 1989, you could get a complete 386 system at 20 MHz with a color VGA monitor and a hard drive for a largely similar cost to the FDHD, or cheaper than the FDHD with a monochrome monitor. https://archive.org/details/PC-Mag-1989-08-01/page/n1/mode/2up?q=tandon+386

The SE FDHD with a 20 MB hard drive was $3,700. https://lowendmac.com/1987/mac-se/

Apple kept the 68000 in use for *far* too long. This wasn't even their last 68000 machine, they simplified the SE further into the Classic in 1990 and kept it into production until 1992. They had fallen into the same trap as the Apple II with backwards compatibility. In the Apple II case, keeping the CPU at 1 MHz until some of the final machines like the IIc+ at 4 MHz and IIgs with the 65816 at 2.8 MHz.

That said, do you think that the CPU speed is the bigger factor or is the "problem" the 16-bit external data bus and memory used?

The CPU speed is the biggest problem, because the SE is entirely software driven via the OS and Toolbox ROM. The frame buffer and floppy access use an enormous amount of processing time and leave little to applications to use. The 16 bit data bus isn't really a problem because the system isn't fast enough as it is to fully saturate it. It only becomes an issue when you start adding accelerators, which is why the more advanced ones had their own RAM slots to have 32 bit memory access.

By the late 1980s, the 68000 was available in speeds of 16 MHz, which could have been used to drastically improve the speed of the machine. The Brainstorm SE accelerator of the mid 90s showed just how fast a SE could go with a fast 68000 and a reworked ASIC, it was nearly as fast as an LC II with a 68030. https://tinkerdifferent.com/attachm...rm-accelerator-for-the-macintosh-se-pdf.4139/

Or they could have done like the IIc with the Smart Port 800k disk drive and had a 6502 offload the disk routines from the 68000. The 6502 by then was a cheap jellybean part that was sold by the millions. One of the Mac II machines did this to speed up floppy disk access. Because even on a 68020/030, bit banging the floppy drive takes up a ton of CPU time.

 

[NeXT]

Bro, chill. He was referring to the 68030 accelerator you have in your SE, not "modern" modern hardware.

The 4 MB RAM ceiling would prove to be a serious limitation of the hardware as memory demands exploded in the late 80s and early 90s with System 7. Apple could have had up to 16 MB on the 68000, but to maintain backwards compatibility with software, they had to keep system devices peppered all over the 68000 address space.

FYI as well, when the SE launched in March 87, you had System 4. System 6 was still a year away and system 7 was four years away. 4mb of ram, while still limiting (a reminder the mac II shipped at the same time as the SE and why would you undermine your next generation machine like that??) was still gobs of ram for running a lot of applications. (EG: Microsoft Excel and Aldus Pagemaker, both of which also being applications that would take advantage of a 68020 accelerator) There is lots of proof that mid-80's compact macs continued to have a relatively good chunk of the low-end market even by the time System 7 came out. (EG: Robyn Miller used one for music composition during the development of Myst even though they had the budget for newer and faster macs)

 

[snuci]

I was cracking open some Macs for #Marchintosh, doing some regular checks on caps and functionality and had this out. It's a Novy ImagePro 25 with a 68030 25Mhz CPU on a Mac SE with added memory. There were a bunch of accelerators for the SE. This particular one had a 50 Mhz option as well. I'll be honest, sometimes sellers don't even mention accelerator cards so they could be out there but hidden. I did not spend any extra for the SE with an accelerator. Your mileage will vary, of course.

 

[GiGaBiTe]

That's how I got my TotalSystems Gemini Ultra. Bought a Mac SE at an ARC thrift store in Colorado in 1997/1998, and it was in there.

And through sheer dumb luck, I ended up keeping it all of these decades later. The original SE it was in was destroyed when moving back from CO (slammed on the brakes and it went flying and necked the CRT), but I had taken it apart and removed the upgrade board and put it in a drawer and forgot about it until about 10 years ago.

The only part that didn't survive was the external video cable and bracket. I need to fashion up one of those one of these days. Not sure if it puts out a usable video signal though for modern monitors.

 

[siliboi]

@GiGaBiTe It seems a bit silly to call the stock hardware configuration for the time "slow" simply because you have faster options now.

That said, do you think that the CPU speed is the bigger factor or is the "problem" the 16-bit external data bus and memory used?

No I called them slow because in primary I remembered we had mac se shaped computers that were colour and we all hated them and ran for the pcs in the computer lab because they took like 12 minutes to boot and we had 30 mins in the lab so time was half gone for games when you literally got it started

I don’t think it was a colour classic

The se/30 isn’t to bad tho I booted one last night decently snappy

I just remember in primary we had a colour one maybe a se and se30 and they were so slow we’d all run for the pc
That was in 1995. I always loved the form factor though

 

[siliboi]

I was cracking open some Macs for #Marchintosh, doing some regular checks on caps and functionality and had this out. It's a Novy ImagePro 25 with a 68030 25Mhz CPU on a Mac SE with added memory. There were a bunch of accelerators for the SE. This particular one had a 50 Mhz option as well. I'll be honest, sometimes sellers don't even mention accelerator cards so they could be out there but hidden. I did not spend any extra for the SE with an accelerator. Your mileage will vary, of course.

View attachment 1317984

Once I get the radius system working I’ll let ya know it’s reporting error 000000003 000000000f

 

[siliboi]

This looks like a 60803 with a radius extra display but it also says radius 16 I’ve got a little freezing issue so I haven’t been able to check control panel or system settings

It seems connected to the motherboard from screws from the top so I couldn’t figure out how to get it out looks like a weekend project lol and it’s a long weekend

I did get it booting though

Lots of funny old files mostly logs taxes and lodge files for a business I’ve got like 200 floppies with it should be a fun explore when I solve the freezing issue

I think it has something to do with the card connection but k need to get the motherboard out and clean it.

Once I get that clean and the ram reseated I think it will work fine doesn’t look like it needs a recap either but we’ll see when I can do a full disassembly to check

My plus blew it’s rifa cap but so far now all of them are working

Printers mice keyboards software manuals talk about a full collection

This will take a bit of work but I want to liquid Vapor brite and get it all looking brand new and fully working

The hard drives are in good shape I wonder if you can put a hard drive in a plus more stuff is on the way too this should be an extremely fun project I wish I had a house and more room to work on this stuff my tiny apartment is screaming haha

I also got a factory carry bag with the se/30

 

[siliboi]

I was cracking open some Macs for #Marchintosh, doing some regular checks on caps and functionality and had this out. It's a Novy ImagePro 25 with a 68030 25Mhz CPU on a Mac SE with added memory. There were a bunch of accelerators for the SE. This particular one had a 50 Mhz option as well. I'll be honest, sometimes sellers don't even mention accelerator cards so they could be out there but hidden. I did not spend any extra for the SE with an accelerator. Your mileage will vary, of course.

View attachment 1317984

That one should be pretty powerful for sure

 

[siliboi]

Nice straw man argument there. Nobody said anything about comparing the Mac SE to modern anything.

The Mac SE was slow when it was released in 1987, and even slower for the FDHD spec in 1989. The machine had the same ~7.8 MHz 68000 that the original 1984 model did and had largely similar performance due to the CPU having to manage everything in software. The only difference was the higher RAM ceiling of 4 MB, SCSI, ADB and 1.44M floppies in the FDHD spec. The 4 MB RAM ceiling would prove to be a serious limitation of the hardware as memory demands exploded in the late 80s and early 90s with System 7. Apple could have had up to 16 MB on the 68000, but to maintain backwards compatibility with software, they had to keep system devices peppered all over the 68000 address space. Some accelerators like the TotalSystems Gemini can use the 68030 MMU to remap those devices to other locations and allow a larger chunk of memory to be used.

In mid 1989, you could get a complete 386 system at 20 MHz with a color VGA monitor and a hard drive for a largely similar cost to the FDHD, or cheaper than the FDHD with a monochrome monitor. https://archive.org/details/PC-Mag-1989-08-01/page/n1/mode/2up?q=tandon+386

The SE FDHD with a 20 MB hard drive was $3,700. https://lowendmac.com/1987/mac-se/

Apple kept the 68000 in use for *far* too long. This wasn't even their last 68000 machine, they simplified the SE further into the Classic in 1990 and kept it into production until 1992. They had fallen into the same trap as the Apple II with backwards compatibility. In the Apple II case, keeping the CPU at 1 MHz until some of the final machines like the IIc+ at 4 MHz and IIgs with the 65816 at 2.8 MHz.




The CPU speed is the biggest problem, because the SE is entirely software driven via the OS and Toolbox ROM. The frame buffer and floppy access use an enormous amount of processing time and leave little to applications to use. The 16 bit data bus isn't really a problem because the system isn't fast enough as it is to fully saturate it. It only becomes an issue when you start adding accelerators, which is why the more advanced ones had their own RAM slots to have 32 bit memory access.

By the late 1980s, the 68000 was available in speeds of 16 MHz, which could have been used to drastically improve the speed of the machine. The Brainstorm SE accelerator of the mid 90s showed just how fast a SE could go with a fast 68000 and a reworked ASIC, it was nearly as fast as an LC II with a 68030. https://tinkerdifferent.com/attachm...rm-accelerator-for-the-macintosh-se-pdf.4139/

Or they could have done like the IIc with the Smart Port 800k disk drive and had a 6502 offload the disk routines from the 68000. The 6502 by then was a cheap jellybean part that was sold by the millions. One of the Mac II machines did this to speed up floppy disk access. Because even on a 68020/030, bit banging the floppy drive takes up a ton of CPU time.

I think I have a smart port I have a boatload of disc and Internet drives floppy enclosures haven’t even been through a 1/4 of it all yet

 

[siliboi]

Given how limited the number of accelerators were for the SE, I'm going to assume the only thing Radius had was the Radius SE Accelerator. - https://wiki.preterhuman.net/Radius_SE_Accelerator

I've seen exactly one and it was nearly 15 years ago at The Hackery and I never got the chance to actually see how much better it was compared to a normal SE. I have no recent experience with it but the internet seems to imply that unless you have a ROM upgrade (the dumps of which do not appear to be online...) you are stuck with System 6 which IMO for a 68020 is fine but in this day and age unless one falls into your lap it's probably better to save the PDS slot for ethernet or the PC 5.25" card.

Once o get it fully running I’ll do that comparison test I always see on YouTube apparently some of the accelerator cards and roms can really speed it up

 

[siliboi]

this accelerator (radius accelerator) appears to be dual display and speed up card , i still cant get the motherboard out as the riser prevents the motherboard from sliding back so i guess i have to bend the case a bit to get it out , it does work but it freezes after i click a program most likely i have to clean all the contacts reseat all the boards after i jiggled it the se booted if i removed it it began to boot more reliably then when i put it back in it still booted so should be an easy fix i have only found 1 video of this card and really no mention of it online seems ike its worth a pretty penny according to enthusiasts