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Massive Lot of Vintage Macs and other computers.

A lot of the people there are also vintage collectors, so I highly doubt a workable machine will be destroyed.

Also, the entire purchase is currently having financial issues, so a few sacrificed systems may save more than is destroyed.
 
mbbrutman said:
Please don't do that. Keyboard poachers often destroy old machines without a second thought.
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Most do not do that. In fact, the system is usually sold off to someone that wants it if the keyboard is the only thing that was wanted. Some keep the older machine so they can put back the keycaps and sell the entire machine as a whole at a later date.
 
Samir said:
Most do not do that. In fact, the system is usually sold off to someone that wants it if the keyboard is the only thing that was wanted. Some keep the older machine so they can put back the keycaps and sell the entire machine as a whole at a later date.
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I beg to differ. Case in point: there are too many IBM 5140 Convertibles that show up on eBay with no keyboards. The poachers like the switches.

It happens to a lot of other systems too.
 
mbbrutman said:
I beg to differ. Case in point: there are too many IBM 5140 Convertibles that show up on eBay with no keyboards. The poachers like the switches.

It happens to a lot of other systems too.
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Are you kidding me? It's not the switches, but the keyboard itself. There are no switches in IBM's buckling spring models.

And there isn't anything wrong imo with taking a keyboard from a system as it is its own peripheral with its own model and serial number. There is nothing really lost in the value of a 'pristine' system as long as a replacement of the exact same type is acquired elsewhere. It does make it harder to collect a 'complete' system, but you have to understand that IBM created a keyboard that has been a legend now for the better part of 30 years, especially since it still connects to today's computers and works. And because of that the keyboard is usually worth more than the other components in a complete system in today's market. That's just the market. And be happy about that as the keyboard ends up being the gateway into the vintage systems themselves.

I purchased systems new during the era that is 'vintage pc' now. No system other than IBMs came with a keyboard--you had to buy one. The major brand names had their own variant with some sort of clicking switch to imitate the IBM keyboards of the time, but generally keyboards were generic with similar switches--all trying to be an IBM keyboard. Most of the time your keyboard came from your previous system (which might have been an IBM). Later in the 1990s, IBM and Lexmark figured out the value of these well-made keyboards and did have them available for sale as individual pieces as an 'Options by IBM' product. I know because I bought one at that time, and they are still available today manufactured by Unicomp who purchased the keyboard making equipment from Lexmark when they stopped production.

I understand the value in keeping a full IBM system intact as that's ideal. But with this entire sale potentially jeopardized because a lack of participation, and knowing that there's at least one lone IBM Model M keyboard that didn't seem to have a system (maybe even an XT or AT keyboard), imo these are perfectly fine to find new homes where they will be cherished.
 
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Caluser2000 said:
What is the fascination keyboard switchs key caps all about?
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Good question. In one word--quality. For example, those blue keycaps on the Kaypro keyboard have a spherical profile which is not found on anything today. They are shaped like the keys that were found on typewriters, and they are strong like the ones from typewriters, usually made from two resins and thick designed for many, many years of service. As you can just by looking at them, they still are in great shape today. And that's their allure--because many of these used a standard mounting stem that is compatible with Cherry switches, you can easily transplant them from an older keyboard to customize a newer one. Now, the value of the original keyboard drops when this happens, so most price conscious buyers will keep the original keyboard stored in case they want to put the keycaps back (and many people have multiple sets so it gives them a resting place on the original board).

The switches in the older keyboards were also very well made, so those are also of interest since they can be desoldered and then resoldered into a new custom keyboard. Now, this obviously destroys the original keyboard unless the desoldering is done properly and in a reversible manner, but if the keyboard is going to be trashed anyways, this is usually the first step in the recycling process--reuse. Many keyboards that would have had a lonely death have been saved by keyboard enthusiasts, many times to just to enjoy as is since building a custom keyboard isn't the easiest thing.

It's interesting that you have a Zenith Data System logo as an avatar. Zenith made some fine keyboards to compete with the IBMs, many of which have survived just because of keyboard enthusiasts:
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Zenith_Z-150
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Zenith_ZKB-2

I hope this gave some insight. I'm sure there are people that wonder why people collect vintage computers, but luckily the keyboard enthusiasts already understand why since they essentially do the same thing on different levels.
 
1) that extra model M is mine.
2) I do not have to make it easy for people to cannibalize keyboards. When a keyboard is worth more than the sysyem it plugs into, it makes me sad.

it is one thing to take a dead keyboard and butcher it for a project. I can come to terms with that. it's completely different if an otherwise working unit gets torn apart for no benefit.

also, its perfectly acceptable to use an old keyboard with an adapter on a new system. It is the destruction prospect that has really triggered us.
 
luckybob said:
1) that extra model M is mine.
2) I do not have to make it easy for people to cannibalize keyboards. When a keyboard is worth more than the sysyem it plugs into, it makes me sad.

it is one thing to take a dead keyboard and butcher it for a project. I can come to terms with that. it's completely different if an otherwise working unit gets torn apart for no benefit.

also, its perfectly acceptable to use an old keyboard with an adapter on a new system. It is the destruction prospect that has really triggered us.
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Awesome. Glad it's going to a good home. :) I have more than my share, but there's always someone that wants one of these fantastic keyboards (I've been using them since 1988 ).

Nope, you don't have to make it easy. You can buy and keep it with the system it belongs with and preserve both. But if you don't buy it and a seller wants to sell it, there's only so much that can be done.

I don't like seeing anything old that's working get destroyed. I recently even bought a perfectly working typewriter just because I didn't want to see it rot away (still haven't told the wife about it though :O). So I get it--I love seeing old systems system run too--I own my fair share of IBM XTs, PS/2s, IBM Commercial Desktop Series, S/32--everything from an 8088 to Pentium Pros and beyond--all running. But when something is going to be trashed or otherwise end up in the 'wrong hands', I'd rather at least the keyboard go to someone that can appreciate it.
 
sellam said:
Has anyone ventured a guess as to where this all came from? It looks like it used to be owned by a collector. The stuff is too disparate and too much to be just a former user/hoarder.
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Came from a man's home in Springfield, who passed away earlier this year. His house was full of stuff, all kinds of things that his family didn't want. More than just these computers, too.

fsmith2003 said:
I am about 70 miles away from Decatur. Do you know if there is any way the owner would allow me to take a look at these as well? I am most interested in the IBM stuff I seen in the pics.
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Unlikely, unless you're serious about buying the entire lot yourself. This guy really wants to move the entire lot. A lot of the IBM stuff has been paid for. PC jr stuff still available.

Plenty of Apple equipment still available too.
 
Samir said:
Wait, I just re-read this. You're getting the IBM Educator and a keyboard with that, but you're getting a second Model M keyboard as well? :confused:
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yes, I specifically added it to the items I paid for. There isn't any other ps/2 machine there so it was a natural fit. Just as I would assume all the PCjr parts would be gotten by one person.
 
Samir said:
Are you kidding me? It's not the switches, but the keyboard itself. There are no switches in IBM's buckling spring models.

And there isn't anything wrong imo with taking a keyboard from a system as it is its own peripheral with its own model and serial number. There is nothing really lost in the value of a 'pristine' system as long as a replacement of the exact same type is acquired elsewhere. It does make it harder to collect a 'complete' system, but you have to understand that IBM created a keyboard that has been a legend now for the better part of 30 years, especially since it still connects to today's computers and works. And because of that the keyboard is usually worth more than the other components in a complete system in today's market. That's just the market. And be happy about that as the keyboard ends up being the gateway into the vintage systems themselves.

I purchased systems new during the era that is 'vintage pc' now. No system other than IBMs came with a keyboard--you had to buy one. The major brand names had their own variant with some sort of clicking switch to imitate the IBM keyboards of the time, but generally keyboards were generic with similar switches--all trying to be an IBM keyboard. Most of the time your keyboard came from your previous system (which might have been an IBM). Later in the 1990s, IBM and Lexmark figured out the value of these well-made keyboards and did have them available for sale as individual pieces as an 'Options by IBM' product. I know because I bought one at that time, and they are still available today manufactured by Unicomp who purchased the keyboard making equipment from Lexmark when they stopped production.

I understand the value in keeping a full IBM system intact as that's ideal. But with this entire sale potentially jeopardized because a lack of participation, and knowing that there's at least one lone IBM Model M keyboard that didn't seem to have a system (maybe even an XT or AT keyboard), imo these are perfectly fine to find new homes where they will be cherished.
Click to expand...

Please calm down. The example machine that I gave (IBM 5140 Convertible) does not use buckling springs. And it seems to be a highly desirable keyboard because of the switches and the form factor.

The long story made short is that when people start crawling around looking for cool keyboards, switches, or keycaps, often a system is ruined. And especially if we are talking about Geekhack .. there is a lot of keyboard poaching that is going on there. To say otherwise is pretty laughable.

A dead keyboard? Sure .. a physically broken keyboard? Take what you need. I just get really PO'ed when I see this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/252582546461

Some damn poacher stripped a laptop of it's keyboard, took the keys off of it, and then sold the carcass for the switches. It's not like laptops come with backup keyboards. It happens way too often on eBay, and this handy "howto" guides like this are part of the problem: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/ibm-5140-convertible-conversion-t9666.html

And here is a GeekHack post featuring harvested 5140 keycaps .. beautiful work, but another 5140 gave up it's life for it.

Hopefully for this particular lot of machines nothing bad happens. But keyboard poachers are a real problem.
 
luckybob said:
yes, I specifically added it to the items I paid for. There isn't any other ps/2 machine there so it was a natural fit. Just as I would assume all the PCjr parts would be gotten by one person.
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Do you have a vintage system that this keyboard will go to?
 
mbbrutman said:
Please calm down. The example machine that I gave (IBM 5140 Convertible) does not use buckling springs. And it seems to be a highly desirable keyboard because of the switches and the form factor.

The long story made short is that when people start crawling around looking for cool keyboards, switches, or keycaps, often a system is ruined. And especially if we are talking about Geekhack .. there is a lot of keyboard poaching that is going on there. To say otherwise is pretty laughable.

A dead keyboard? Sure .. a physically broken keyboard? Take what you need. I just get really PO'ed when I see this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/252582546461

Some damn poacher stripped a laptop of it's keyboard, took the keys off of it, and then sold the carcass for the switches. It's not like laptops come with backup keyboards. It happens way too often on eBay, and this handy "howto" guides like this are part of the problem: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/ibm-5140-convertible-conversion-t9666.html

And here is a GeekHack post featuring harvested 5140 keycaps .. beautiful work, but another 5140 gave up it's life for it.

Hopefully for this particular lot of machines nothing bad happens. But keyboard poachers are a real problem.
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You started this with your extreme stance towards communities you are not intimately familiar with. I didn't even know such a beautiful IBM existed, and while I understand why you don't want to see something like this torn apart if it is working, many of these do not work and hence their parts are salvaged. You also have to understand that detailed teardowns like what you linked to are also very, very valuable for those trying to restore these systems.

The geekhack community is a keyboard community that first and foremost works with intact boards as that is the primary topic of discussion. Not only is it hard to find vintage switches/parts, but there are so many new products being manufactured now for the person that wants to build their own board that it is almost too much trouble to try to get actual vintage stuff. Sometimes someone will get 'lucky' and find something that was about to be thrown away, but as you know, working vintage systems aren't as cheap as non-working, and complete systems cost even more--and people know that. Building your own keyboard with any sort of budget requires that you find parts and pieces along the way, which may take years. This means paying top dollar for a working system and ripping out its guts is a last resort, and one that is usually not financially feasible.

You have this personal vendetta against keyboard poaching for some reason, and are flat labeling everyone as such, wherein the truth is that most DO NOT do anything like this and have a preservationist point-of-view similar to that of a vintage collector. You really need to change your attitude.
 
luckybob said:
I'm going to go hug my 5140 and thank my lucky stars it's all in one piece.
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I just read up on this machine and saw a picture of it via wikipedia. I remember this machine as we contemplated getting it, but it was too slow for running the software we wanted, which we were currently running on a PS/2 30-286. We ended up getting a CompuAdd 386sx laptop, but then due to the expense of it, returned it. The 5140 was quite innovative for its time--glad you have one.
 
Samir said:
You started this with your extreme stance towards communities you are not intimately familiar with.
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False, I am a member of GeekHack. Not terribly active, but I've been lurking for years. And I've even posted pictures of my 5140 there ...

Samir said:
I didn't even know such a beautiful IBM existed, and while I understand why you don't want to see something like this torn apart if it is working, many of these do not work and hence their parts are salvaged. You also have to understand that detailed teardowns like what you linked to are also very, very valuable for those trying to restore these systems.

The geekhack community is a keyboard community that first and foremost works with intact boards as that is the primary topic of discussion. Not only is it hard to find vintage switches/parts, but there are so many new products being manufactured now for the person that wants to build their own board that it is almost too much trouble to try to get actual vintage stuff. Sometimes someone will get 'lucky' and find something that was about to be thrown away, but as you know, working vintage systems aren't as cheap as non-working, and complete systems cost even more--and people know that. Building your own keyboard with any sort of budget requires that you find parts and pieces along the way, which may take years. This means paying top dollar for a working system and ripping out its guts is a last resort, and one that is usually not financially feasible.

You have this personal vendetta against keyboard poaching for some reason, and are flat labeling everyone as such, wherein the truth is that most DO NOT do anything like this and have a preservationist point-of-view similar to that of a vintage collector. You really need to change your attitude.
Click to expand...

I have a personal vendetta against keyboard poachers (which is who I warned about) not against GeekHack, so please stop conflating the two. And once again, it's laughable to claim that GeekHack is not a good place to find keyboard poachers.

I'm glad that with modern manufacturing that people are recreating items. But the last 10 to 15 years have been rough; look at eBay - there are plenty of terminals and strange machines missing their keyboards because of this keyboard poaching nonsense that I warned of.
 
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