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Selecting an 8" floppy drive

smbaker

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I have a couple of CP/M Z80 computers, and I want to add an 8 inch floppy drive. Looking at some of the available hardware, there's shugart 800, shugart 850, NEC FD1165, Qume, Siemens, ... There's also IBM branded drives; not sure if those are manufactured by IBM, or rebranded by someone else.

As far as I can tell, the Shugart 800 and 850 are single-sided and double-sided respectively. They require AC mains power (commonly 115 VAC or 230 VAC) as well as +24/+5/-5. There's an 801 and 851 that feature onboard data separators, that I don't need. This chips on the controller board look fairly common, giving me some possibility of being able to make repairs should I need to.

The NEC doesn't require AC mains power, but does require +24/+5 and maybe -5. The NEC looks like a much newer more modern design, but has several large 40-pin packages, which are probably considered unobtainium should there be a failure.

Don't know much about the Qumes or the Siemens.

Is there anything else I should be considering or looking for? I'm familiar with 3.5" and 5.25" technology, and have built my own controller boards for the Z80.

Thanks,
Scott
 
Shugart SA851 is hard sectored and can be jumpered for soft sector. Same with SA801. The SA851 needs only +24V and +5V.

You can wire a TEAC FD235HG (3.5") in place of an 8" drive like the SA851 and it will will work fine, more than fine. Normal 3.5" drives spin at 300 RPM, but the TEAC has the 1.2MB mode that will cause it to spin at 360 RPM, just like 8" drives. Just ground the mode pin. And it needs +5V only. You can buy a TEAC FD235HG (NOT HF!) for $10. The SA851 will cost $150 on eBay.

See, http://www.isis-mds.com/adapter-cards.html

Richard
 
Avoid the Caldata drives, they put both the signals and the +5V and +24V on the 50 way interface cable. The waiting disaster if you use any other drive is obvious.
 
All of the 8" floppy drive manufacturers are dead. With the exception of TTL, transistors, and some microswitches and optical sensors, there is no source for new replacement parts.

There are still companies around (aftermarket surplus dealers) who claim to have factory new drives available, many of those drives are/were rejects from OEM Users that have supposedly been tested and/or repaired. Many of those drives are still defective. If you decide to go this route, make sure that you get a warranty from the Seller that the drive has been tested to factory specs, and that the Seller will repair or replace the drive if it malfunctions for a period after delivery (and I don't mean only 10 days, more like 90-180 days at minimum).

Most of the later 8" drive designs have some custom chips (the late SA-800/800 have a 40-pin custom LSI chip & customer read and write chips, while the SA-850/851 uses the same custom read and write chips as the SA-800/801, plus a custom stepper motor driver chip). As with other parts, the only source of replacements would be donor drives. The Shugart SA-801 and SA-851 are hard sector capable 8" drives. The only difference between the hard sector (801/851) and soft sector (800/851) are a few parts on the logic boards (which are physically the same circuit boards for the SA-800 and -SA-801 OR the SA-850 and SA-851). Most late drives carry the hard sector 801 or 851 logic boards with the hard sector circuitry Option Jumpered Out.

As far as 8" full height floppy drives go, the Shugart drives are the best for reliability and longevity. They are also the easiest to find replacement parts for. The Siemens drives work,but they are slow. Most Qume full height drives are junk (DT8/DT-842) with 90% carrying bad head assemblies, bad logic boards, and/or bad stepper motors. The Mitsubishi full height 8" drives are poorly designed, and not worth owning.

I used to like the Shugart 1/2 height drives the best of the 1/2 height 8"floppies. Like the NEC FD-1165 they are mostly metal and hold alignment fairly well. But this past year, after trying to piece together a pair of Shugart SA-860 double-sided drives, I've found that the design has aged very poorly. Most of the Shugart 1/2 height drives I have are having problems with the stepper motor, and remember there aren't any new replacements. My previous 2nd choice Mitsubishi M2896-63 1/2 height double-sided is now my 1st choice for 8" 1/2 height floppy drives. I've been using a pair for over 20 years without any problems. I've had poor luck with Qume DT-242 1/2 height drives although some people have had good luck fixing the common failed logic boards on these drives. The NEC FD-1165 drives are made with excellent quality for the most part and have an interesting rotary head load mechanism, BUT many suffer from upper head assemblies that get loose (causing upper head to go out of alignment relative to the lower head, this will total the drive (according to the factory) unless a drive repair person with "head splitting" skills is available to try to fix the problem).

I would not pay more than $25-$50 for a Qume drive to use for parts. I would not pay more than $75 for a used Mitsubishi M-2896-63 or a NEC FD-1165 unless it came with a warranty that it was aligned and working (in which case I might go to $150 for an NEC or $300 for a M-2896-63). A working Shugart SA-850/851 with alignment and warranty is worth $300-$400, AS-IS, it would be worth $25-$75. Working Siemens drives are worth $100-$200.

I charge $100 alignment - $150 repair and alignment for a single-sided drive, and $150 alignment - $200 repair and alignment for double-sided drives. That would be plus parts, and plus return shipping. You can get an idea of why I value unknown used drives the way I do. Most used drives that I come across need some attention. Unless you are paying for a drive that has been serviced recently, you should expect to be paying for drive servicing before you can use any drive you buy.

If you find something you're interested in on eBay, I'll be happy to look at it/them for you and give you my honest opinion (free of charge) if you send me the link. Just don't link every 8" floppy on eBay. There are a lot of 8" floppy drives on eBay to choose from, and many are junk, not worth buying, even for parts.

3.5" and 5.35" drives are not made to the same level of quality as many/most 8" drives were. While 3.5" drives are newer, and more available, a larger percentage of them are out of spec, and they are not made to be repaired.
 
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Thanks for the opinions. Shortly after posting here (and before the replies started rolling in), I did spot a pair of Qume drives (842 and dt/8) with case on eBay for $100 and ordered it. There weren't any pictures of the drives themselves, so I'm not sure exactly what condition I'll be getting. I expect they're going to need some attention, I don't expect vintage equipment to work out of the box unless it says it has been tested, and these drives are clearly untested as-is. If I can't get them to work, they will at least make a good subject for a youtube video.
 
I did spot a pair of Qume drives (842 and dt/8) with case on eBay for $100 and ordered it. If I can't get them to work, they will at least make a good subject for a youtube video.

So would hitting your hand with a hammer, though hitting your hand with a hammer would be less
painful than trying to get DT8s or 242s to work reliably.

"I would not pay more than $25-$50 for a Qume drive to use for parts."

Yup.. my experience as well. Scrapped my DT8s a couple of years ago, gave
away all of my 242s to someone who restores Fairlights,
and switched to using only 850s and 800s for floppy recovery, of which I've read literally
thousands of diskettes.

DT8s and especially 242s have the really nasty feature of the top heads carving concentric
rings into the top side of diskettes often and having a head assembly design that makes
them extremely difficult to clean.
 
Thanks for the opinions. Shortly after posting here (and before the replies started rolling in), I did spot a pair of Qume drives (842 and dt/8) with case on eBay for $100 and ordered it. There weren't any pictures of the drives themselves, so I'm not sure exactly what condition I'll be getting. I expect they're going to need some attention, I don't expect vintage equipment to work out of the box unless it says it has been tested, and these drives are clearly untested as-is. If I can't get them to work, they will at least make a good subject for a youtube video.

Unless the case and power supply are worth $100 (plus shipping), I'm afraid you threw your money away. This year I've worked on about 30 Qume DT8 and DT842 8" floppy drives with the result that not one drive would pass all tests. They were all electrical and/or mechanical totals. After extensive work, and parts swapping, a few almost worked, but that not the same as completion as working drives. I swore off reconditioning Qume 8" floppies back at the end of the 1980s. I used to buy 8" floppies by the pallet load for reconditioning and repair parts, and even them, the percentage of restoreable drives out of a pallet load was an unacceptable one or two out of ten.

What I was trying to say nicely earlier is that the cost of shipping will exceed the value of 99% of the Qume drives out there. Sure, if you have some, and need parts before you throw away some drives, you might be tempted to gamble some money on some parts drives. But if you don't own any, you should not waste your money buying any.

If you already bought that eBay deal, hopefully the drive enclosure and power supply will be worth what you are paying for the whole deal, because the iodds of you getting working drives that don't need repair, or are repairable is virtually ZERO. I tried looking on eBay to see if Icould see what you are buying but I couldn't findit. Post the eBay item number, and I'll tell you what I really think of your purchase.
 
Post the eBay item number, and I'll tell you what I really think of your purchase.

Sure, it was this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/262720363351. There's not much to see, as the drives are mounted in the case. It'll be here today, though I'm not going to be in a position to try it out for a while.

The case doesn't appear to have a power supply (I was planning on using my own), and the case itself doesn't look like it's worth a whole lot. This is one of those times when I should have probably waited a few more days before spending the money. I didn't realize at the time how risky these old drives were.
 
Your experience may vary. I've been using a couple of DT8s for at least 25 years pretty consistently. They were NIB, so have not had a chance to be abused and they've turned in sterling performance.
 
I see that nobody's mentioned Tandons; despite the bad reputation of their 5.25" floppies and their hard drives I've had pretty good luck with their 1/2 height TM848s. The straight 848 is belt driven and a little fussier than the 848E which is direct drive but at the cost of a custom chip. They're both pretty solid and they also both have dual index sensors so you can read both single and double sided disks. 24V and 5V only required, documentation available.

YMMV.

m
 
I see that nobody's mentioned Tandons; despite the bad reputation of their 5.25" floppies and their hard drives I've had pretty good luck with their 1/2 height TM848s. The straight 848 is belt driven and a little fussier than the 848E which is direct drive but at the cost of a custom chip. They're both pretty solid and they also both have dual index sensors so you can read both single and double sided disks. 24V and 5V only required, documentation available.

YMMV.

m


The earlier belt driven TM-848 requires 110vac to power the spindle motor.

i don't mind the basic design of those drives, but the quality of the materials and assembly quality was terrible. They were so bad that I stopped supporting them back in the late 1980s along with Qume DT8s, and DT842s.
 
Your experience may vary. I've been using a couple of DT8s for at least 25 years pretty consistently. They were NIB, so have not had a chance to be abused and they've turned in sterling performance.

There are exceptions to every rule, and your Qumes may be some of those. Back a couple of months ago, I had the chance to test a couple of Qume DT842s that someone had just gotten that were in original Qume Factory Shipping Boxes. They had shipping labels on them to the Previous Owner from California Digital (a California based drive sales company). Both drives had logic boards with different serial numbers than the chassis which did appear to be in new condtion. Unfortunately, the drives exhibited classic Qume 8" drive failures. That is: Upper Head out of alignment spec, AND stepper motor not accurate and not capable of repeating head position within spec settling time.

Have you tested your drives against factory specs (alignment and timing) to see if they will still pass/meet specs? I'm guessing that they won't if you check.
 
Sure, it was this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/262720363351. There's not much to see, as the drives are mounted in the case. It'll be here today, though I'm not going to be in a position to try it out for a while.

The case doesn't appear to have a power supply (I was planning on using my own), and the case itself doesn't look like it's worth a whole lot. This is one of those times when I should have probably waited a few more days before spending the money. I didn't realize at the time how risky these old drives were.



Yeah, you're going to need a power supply. And, you're right, the homemade case doesn't look to be worth much. At least you didn't get shafted on the shipping. The Seller probably lost out big time there.

When you get them, get the drives out of the case, and look to see if the serial numbers on the logic boards match the chassis. Then put a finger on the head carriage to see if the head carriage can slide the full range of motion in and out toward the outer track and the spindle. If the stepper motors are in reasonable condition, the head carriages should slide with hardly any effort. If they slide with difficulty, the stepper motor bearings are junk.

If you had written before buying, I would have told you to keep looking. Too late now. Now, hope for the best...
 
The earlier belt driven TM-848 requires 110vac to power the spindle motor.
Nope. I've got four of them here, all 24 and 5V only:

Table 1-1, page 1-3:
http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/tandon/diskette/Tandon TM848 service manual 1982.pdf

i don't mind the basic design of those drives, but the quality of the materials and assembly quality was terrible. They were so bad that I stopped supporting them back in the late 1980s along with Qume DT8s, and DT842s.
As I said, your mileage may vary but I've had fairly good experience with them, both in daily use at clients back in the day and now hobby use where the dual index sensors occasionally come in very handy.

m
 
I did and they do. I've got a set of Dysan alignment disks--both digital and analog. I might have just lucked out.

I know that the Qume DT-8 and 242 drives correspond to the YE Data 174 and 180 drives, respectively. Someone is rebadging someone else's drives, but who really made them?
 
At least you didn't get shafted on the shipping. The Seller probably lost out big time there.

I just dragged the box upstairs. I figured it was going to be big and heavy, but I had no idea it was going to be that big and heavy...

When you get them, get the drives out of the case, and look to see if the serial numbers on the logic boards match the chassis. Then put a finger on the head carriage to see if the head carriage can slide the full range of motion in and out toward the outer track and the spindle. If the stepper motors are in reasonable condition, the head carriages should slide with hardly any effort. If they slide with difficulty, the stepper motor bearings are junk.

Thanks, I will do these tests.

Chuck(G) said:
I did and they do. I've got a set of Dysan alignment disks--both digital and analog. I might have just lucked out.

Speaking of which, where does someone find alignment disks? I've read of the alignment procedures in the manual for this drive (as well as other drives), and I have an oscilloscope and enough skill to use it, but I fear I'm out of luck without an alignment disk. Are these special disks, or are they ordinary floppies that just have the appropriate data stored on them?
 
Qume did not make the floppy drives. I believe Y.E. Data was actually the manufacturer of the floppy drives. Drives were marketed in the U.S. with the Qume label, Y.E. Data in the Far East, and I don't remember which label was used in Europe. Y.E. Data drives did not show up for sale in the U.S. until after Qume stopped selling them, so probably a Marketing Agreement between Qume and Y.E. Data was in place.
 
Right, all TM-848s are DC only.

Seems to me there was something about the belt drive TM-848 that was funny. Was it that the DC spindle motors an all the time like a full height drive's spindle motor? I could have sworn that the early TM-848 drives had 110vac spindle motors.
 
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