Who is still running a VAX/780?

hhedeshian · Oct 22, 2024

Bitly said:
After some comparison to the uFiche, it appears WCS124.PAT.other is the correct version, and WCS124.PAT is something else.

Good to know. Looking at your files, it looks like 125 and 126 are larger than 124. This is consistent with the M8238 WCS (which has the expanded memory) installed in my system instead of the M8233. It's pretty clear to me that 125/126 are the correct uCode for my system. I'll likely start with 126 since that one has documented bug fixes.

AK6DN said:
In any event, you can get the code from here: https://github.com/open-simh/simtools/pull/18

This worked great! Appreciate the tip! I was able to successful convert AS-T213P-ME RX1 VAX 11780 STANDARD CONSOLE.RX1 to the physical format and read it in RT-11 on a PDP11 simh:

Code:

.dir dx:
 
RX1   .VP0     0  18-Feb-88      CONSOL.SYS    31  18-Feb-88
VMB   .EXE    57  18-Feb-88      WCS126.PAT    72  18-Feb-88
ABBREV.HLP     4  18-Feb-88      BOOT  .HLP    13  18-Feb-88
CONSOL.HLP    11  18-Feb-88      ERROR .HLP    19  18-Feb-88
REMOTE.HLP     4  18-Feb-88      CRASH .        1  18-Feb-88
CI780 .BIN    36  18-Feb-88      CIBOO .CMD     2  18-Feb-88
CIGEN .        2  18-Feb-88      CIXDT .        2  18-Feb-88
CS1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      CS1GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB0BOO.ILV     3  18-Feb-88
DB0GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DB0XDT.        2  18-Feb-88
DB1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB1GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB2GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB3GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB4BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB4GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB5BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB5GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB6BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB6GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB7BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB7GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DBABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DBAGEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DBAXDT.        2  18-Feb-88      DBBBOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DBBGEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DBBXDT.        2  18-Feb-88
DEFBOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DM0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DM0BOO.ILV     3  18-Feb-88      DM0GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DM0XDT.        2  18-Feb-88      DM1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DM1GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DM2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DM2GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DM3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DM3GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DMAXDT.        2  18-Feb-88
DUABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DU0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DU0GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DU0XDT.        2  18-Feb-88
DU1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DU2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DU3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      RESTAR.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
RESTAR.ILV     3  18-Feb-88      SB0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SB1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SB2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SB3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SB4BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SB5BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SB6BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SB7BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SBABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SCIBOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SM0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SM1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SM2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SM3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SM4BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SM5BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SM6BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SM7BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SMABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SR0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SR1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SR2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SR3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SR4BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SR5BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SR6BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SR7BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SRABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SU0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
 90 Files, 409 Blocks
 75 Free blocks

It's all coming together! I think I now have all the pieces needed to get this going.

dm2lct · Oct 23, 2024

hhedeshian said:

Good to know. Looking at your files, it looks like 125 and 126 are larger than 124. This is consistent with the M8238 WCS (which has the expanded memory) installed in my system instead of the M8233. It's pretty clear to me that 125/126 are the correct uCode for my system. I'll likely start with 126 since that one has documented bug fixes.

This worked great! Appreciate the tip! I was able to successful convert AS-T213P-ME RX1 VAX 11780 STANDARD CONSOLE.RX1 to the physical format and read it in RT-11 on a PDP11 simh:

Code:

.dir dx:
 
RX1   .VP0     0  18-Feb-88      CONSOL.SYS    31  18-Feb-88
VMB   .EXE    57  18-Feb-88      WCS126.PAT    72  18-Feb-88
ABBREV.HLP     4  18-Feb-88      BOOT  .HLP    13  18-Feb-88
CONSOL.HLP    11  18-Feb-88      ERROR .HLP    19  18-Feb-88
REMOTE.HLP     4  18-Feb-88      CRASH .        1  18-Feb-88
CI780 .BIN    36  18-Feb-88      CIBOO .CMD     2  18-Feb-88
CIGEN .        2  18-Feb-88      CIXDT .        2  18-Feb-88
CS1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      CS1GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB0BOO.ILV     3  18-Feb-88
DB0GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DB0XDT.        2  18-Feb-88
DB1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB1GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB2GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB3GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB4BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB4GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB5BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB5GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB6BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB6GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB7BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB7GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DBABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DBAGEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DBAXDT.        2  18-Feb-88      DBBBOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DBBGEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DBBXDT.        2  18-Feb-88
DEFBOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DM0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DM0BOO.ILV     3  18-Feb-88      DM0GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DM0XDT.        2  18-Feb-88      DM1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DM1GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DM2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DM2GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DM3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DM3GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DMAXDT.        2  18-Feb-88
DUABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DU0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DU0GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DU0XDT.        2  18-Feb-88
DU1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DU2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DU3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      RESTAR.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
RESTAR.ILV     3  18-Feb-88      SB0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SB1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SB2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SB3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SB4BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SB5BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SB6BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SB7BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SBABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SCIBOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SM0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SM1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SM2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SM3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SM4BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SM5BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SM6BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SM7BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SMABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SR0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SR1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SR2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SR3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SR4BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SR5BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SR6BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SR7BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SRABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SU0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
 90 Files, 409 Blocks
 75 Free blocks

It's all coming together! I think I now have all the pieces needed to get this going.

Uhm... Wait... Is that the image of the Console-Floppy, I am searching for over there? If this is so, I can take this image and try to boot it with the Floppy-Emulator from AK6DN, we have at our PDP-11/03.

By the way: The Machine, Robotrontechnik is talking about in this thread, is the same as I do. We are both from Rechenwerk Halle and work at the same Robotron K1840...

AK6DN · Oct 24, 2024

hhedeshian said:

Good to know. Looking at your files, it looks like 125 and 126 are larger than 124. This is consistent with the M8238 WCS (which has the expanded memory) installed in my system instead of the M8233. It's pretty clear to me that 125/126 are the correct uCode for my system. I'll likely start with 126 since that one has documented bug fixes.

This worked great! Appreciate the tip! I was able to successful convert AS-T213P-ME RX1 VAX 11780 STANDARD CONSOLE.RX1 to the physical format and read it in RT-11 on a PDP11 simh:

Code:

.dir dx:
 
RX1   .VP0     0  18-Feb-88      CONSOL.SYS    31  18-Feb-88
VMB   .EXE    57  18-Feb-88      WCS126.PAT    72  18-Feb-88
ABBREV.HLP     4  18-Feb-88      BOOT  .HLP    13  18-Feb-88
CONSOL.HLP    11  18-Feb-88      ERROR .HLP    19  18-Feb-88
REMOTE.HLP     4  18-Feb-88      CRASH .        1  18-Feb-88
CI780 .BIN    36  18-Feb-88      CIBOO .CMD     2  18-Feb-88
CIGEN .        2  18-Feb-88      CIXDT .        2  18-Feb-88
CS1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      CS1GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB0BOO.ILV     3  18-Feb-88
DB0GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DB0XDT.        2  18-Feb-88
DB1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB1GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB2GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB3GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB4BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB4GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB5BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB5GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB6BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB6GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DB7BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DB7GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DBABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DBAGEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DBAXDT.        2  18-Feb-88      DBBBOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DBBGEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DBBXDT.        2  18-Feb-88
DEFBOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DM0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DM0BOO.ILV     3  18-Feb-88      DM0GEN.        2  18-Feb-88
DM0XDT.        2  18-Feb-88      DM1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DM1GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DM2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DM2GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DM3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DM3GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DMAXDT.        2  18-Feb-88
DUABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DU0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DU0GEN.        2  18-Feb-88      DU0XDT.        2  18-Feb-88
DU1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      DU2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
DU3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      RESTAR.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
RESTAR.ILV     3  18-Feb-88      SB0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SB1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SB2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SB3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SB4BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SB5BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SB6BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SB7BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SBABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SCIBOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SM0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SM1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SM2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SM3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SM4BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SM5BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SM6BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SM7BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SMABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SR0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SR1BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SR2BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SR3BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SR4BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SR5BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SR6BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SR7BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
SRABOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88      SU0BOO.CMD     2  18-Feb-88
 90 Files, 409 Blocks
 75 Free blocks

It's all coming together! I think I now have all the pieces needed to get this going.

So if you try and boot that RX image within SIMH does it boot?
From the looks of the file names in the DIR listing nothing jumps out as being an operating system that can boot (no RT11 or XXDP system files).
Or maybe the code that runs on the console 11/03 is just standalone code that gets booted? IDK I was just a VMS user on a 780 back in the day, never did any sysadmin.

bigfix · Oct 24, 2024

Memory of those details faded away after 40 years...
But I think it was a special Image handling the console functions

You find some flowcharts here:

https://manx-docs.org/collections/hcps/kc780td1.pdf

Here are some Details from a troubleshooting guide:

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/780/EY-2217E-SG-0001_Guide_to_VAX-11_780_System_Troubleshooting_198511.pdf

Overview of LSI-11 Subsystem Bootstrapping 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
With the power-on sequence, the Console ROM bootstrap program is started (this requires the operator action of applying power).

The Console ROM is located on the CIB (M8236) board and is initiated by the LSI CPU executing macro instructions starting at ROM location 173000.
The LSI CPU board contains jumpers that enable it to jump to 173000 on power up.

A series of LSI-11 tests are executed by the CIB ROM macro instructions.
These are PDP-11 macro instructions that are executed by the LSI-11 processor.

The Console program, CONSOL.SYS,
is then loaded from the Floppy disk drive (the LOCAL CONSOLE or REMOTE CONSOLE floppy must be installed in the Floppy Disk Drive)
into LSI-11 memory. This is accomplished by execution of macro instrucions in the CIB ROM.

The Console program, CONSOL.SYS, is then started.
The initiation of the CONSOL.SYS program prints the same information that you would get with a Console "SHOW" command followed by a
line indicating that an INIT VAX-11/780 CPU has finished, and that is followed by a statement specif ing where the VAX CPU is halted
The following is an example of the type of printout that should occur on the LSI-11 Console Terminal: CPU HALTED,SOMM CLEAR,STEP=NONE,CLOCK=NORM RAD=HEX,ADD=PHYS,DAT=LONG,FILL=OO,REL=OOOOOOOO INIT SEQ DONE HALTED AT 00000000 The Console program,

CONSOL.SYS, then loads the WCSxxx.PAT file from the Console Floppy into the WCS portion of the VAX-11/780 CPU,
(xxx =current version of WCS code on Floppy). The following is an example of the type of printout that should now be
printed on the LSI Console Terminal:

(RELOADING WCS) LOAD DONE, 0800 MICROWORDS LOADED VER: PCS=Ol WCS=OE-10 FPLA=OE CON=V07-00-L

If the AUTO RESTART switch is ON, the CPU bootstrap is now initiated. If the AUTO RESTART switch is OFF,
the console is held in the Console I/0 mode of operation awaiting operator input.
The LSI Console Terminal will print the CONSOL.SYS prompt and remain in input mode. Prompt is as follows:

hhedeshian · Oct 24, 2024

AK6DN said:
So if you try and boot that RX image within SIMH does it boot?

No not directly. I first booted RT-11 from a simulated RL02 then used it to DIR the RX1 console image. The console disk is FILES-11 formatted. I have not tried booting on real hardware yet. The main thing I wanted to do is make sure I have the correct files (consol.sys and ucode pat files).

I just finished assembling a PDP 11/03L out of parts (it had a faulty power supply) for use as a console. Sadly it's the wrong case (BA11-N instead of BA11-M). Next steps are to disassemble and test out the 5 VAX power supplies. I also need to build a new PDU (I decided against modifying the original) to make the unit run on 120/240 split phase instead of 120/208 3-phase. I ran a 240V circuit with a neutral to where the 780 will be located. Also bought the right connectors and pins to make a new harness for the blowers; motors support a 240V configuration.

hhedeshian · Oct 24, 2024

dm2lct said:
Uhm... Wait... Is that the image of the Console-Floppy, I am searching for over there

Well, it might be! There are multiple images, the difference is in the microcode pattern. You'll need to find the correct one that matches your hardware revision. If you look at my post history in this thread, you can see how I did the analysis to find which WCS***.PAT file is needed (and subsequently the correct floppy image). I'm very curious to see if your Robotron use the same versioning for the modules.

I really hope you get that K1840 going! I'd love to see it in action

dm2lct · Oct 25, 2024

hhedeshian said:
Well, it might be! There are multiple images, the difference is in the microcode pattern. You'll need to find the correct one that matches your hardware revision. If you look at my post history in this thread, you can see how I did the analysis to find which WCS***.PAT file is needed (and subsequently the correct floppy image). I'm very curious to see if your Robotron use the same versioning for the modules.

I really hope you get that K1840 going! I'd love to see it in action

Mhm makes sense, tanks! The The thing, I am afraid of is, that he microcode in the Robotron-M8236 is different to _any_ DEC Microcode, because they had their own PDP-11/03 _compatible_ self developed console computer. But on the other hand, we have the original Robotron-Console-Floppy. So I am about to find more out this evening, when I am in the museum again.

For the first, we need to make sure, what faults are left in the Console-Computer we got from g4ugm. The LSI-11 Processor-Module M7264, we got with this Machine does not give a sign of life. We expected a prompt there, when we power die Machine on, but we get nothing at all. Maybe we did something wrong there...

We put there a other, smaller Processor-Module (I will have a look at the number of it, when I am in our Museum in Halle(Saale)). With this module we get a starting prompt and were able to get some outputs.
I do not know, if we can use this Processor-Module for bootstrapping our VAX.

dm2lct · Nov 9, 2024

While the winter is coming and our museum gets cold, here is a little update from our K1840.

This now is our curernt setup. We have a VT220 connected to our KC780, but also have there a modern laptop with the PDP11-GUI on it.

While we got to boot a RT11 on the console computer to see if the floppy emulator works with it, we managed yesterday to get our Jumpers on the backplane decoded:

Here are some pictures of the jumpers:

X13:

X12:

X11:

X10:

System Revision: XXN

XX = Number
N = Symbol

J = Jumper DEC-Alphabet
No Jumper equals 1!

Order on Backplane
etc. <- J12 <- J13

XX:
J13 - B -> not set -> 1
J12 - VV -> not set -> 1
J12 - TT -> not set -> 1
J12 - RR -> set -> 0
J12 - NN -> set -> 0

-> 00111 -> 7

N:
J13 - L -> set -> 0
J13 - J -> set -> 0
J13 - F -> set -> 0
J13 - D -> set -> 0

-> no sign in revision

0000= NO LETTER 1000= J
0001= A 1001= K
0010= B 1010= L
0011= C 1011= M
0100= D 1100= N
0101= E 1101= P
0110= F 1110= R
0111= H 1111= S

--> VERSION 7.0

But unfortunately our console computer does not bootstrap from the ROM in our VAX CPU. If turned on, it starts at address 173000 but then nothing happens.
When typing 173000g the console computer freezes, and we have no clue, what we are doing wrong here.

We now want to user the PDP-11 GUI to dump all addresses and then will try to have a look with e disassembly to localize the position of the ROM.

The ROMs at the CIB have some markings, but I don't know if this is helpful finding the issue why our VAX do not want to communicate with our PDP-11.

In the meantime we also had to repair the main power unit which distributes the Mains to the Power supplies. There we found a burned resistor and a faulty zener-diode.

So if you have any advice, what we are doing wrong here, we are happy over any helpful advice

Best regards
Chrissy

hhedeshian · Nov 17, 2024

First thing I'd do is use the ODT on the LSI11 to poke around and make sure it's able to read off the Q-bus. See Appendix C ("CONSOLE BOOT /TROUBLESHOOTING FLOW") from EK-DS780-UG-002.

When typing 173000g the console computer freezes, and we have no clue, what we are doing wrong here

Unrelated, I've found my LSI11 to be picky about case (e.g.. 'g' vs 'G'). Though that is not likely to be your issue here.

localize the position of the ROM

ROM starts at 140000 (octal)

mcguire · Nov 28, 2025

To resurrect an old thread...We at LSSM have just gotten our VAX-11/780 up and running. If we can do anything to assist you, please don't hesitate to contact us.

-Dave McGuire, LSSM

shirsch · Nov 28, 2025

mcguire said:
To resurrect an old thread...We at LSSM have just gotten our VAX-11/780 up and running. If we can do anything to assist you, please don't hesitate to contact us.

-Dave McGuire, LSSM

Was that by chance one of the machines from Will's collection?

mcguire · Nov 28, 2025

shirsch said:
Was that by chance one of the machines from Will's collection?

No, Will didn't have any 780s, he had 750s.

-Dave

MiaM · Nov 29, 2025

dm2lct said:
The ROMs at the CIB have some markings, but I don't know if this is helpful finding the issue why our VAX do not want to communicate with our PDP-11.

View attachment 1289352

Those PLS101N are afaik PLAs and not ROMs.

I.E. they likely replace a lot of regular 74xx logic chips.

If there are any ROMs they are likely somewhere else.

P.S. any update on this machine?

Who is still running a VAX/780?

hhedeshian

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dm2lct

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AK6DN

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bigfix

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