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Younger Members with new vintage computers - what to do, and what not to do.....

L

Lorne

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2008
Messages
1,164
Location
Chandler, AZ, USA
I've come across a younger member (I'm not singling anyone out) who came across some IBM 5150s, 5160s, 5150s and 5153s.

The member just plugged a 5151 into a CGA card in a 5150.
I can't remember which way the toasting goes, monochrome to a CGA card, or color to a monochrome card, but one of them isn't good. (and I've got to check my mono monitor soon because I made the same damn mistake the other day).

What the younger members need to know is that this vintage stuff is not plug and play like today's stuff is.

When you get yourself a new vintage computer, there are some things you need to do before just hooking it up, and switching it on.

I'm going to start the list, and I'm sure others will add stuff.

I think we could "bump" this thread every six months or so, so that everyone sees it. (I could even use reminding once in a while.


TO DO LIST:

- If you have the equipment (a voltmeter) you should check the voltages from the power supply preferably with the board disconnected.

- For IBM 5150s and 5160s, you should inventory the cards that are installled, and check the switch settings on SW1 and SW2 to make sure they match what is installed (type of video card, amount of RAM, # of disk drives, etc) in the unit.

- If you have a hard disk drive (HDD) in the unit, don't be moving it around, until you are sure that the heads have been parked.



That's my bit.
I'm sure there's a ton of other things that should be done before flicking the power switch from off to on, so add your knowledge here, and maybe we'll save someone some grief, and some vintage computers/monitors/accesories from their death.
 
Even something as simple as clarifying the difference between a character display and VGA. Someone posted here a couple of days ago wanting to hook a mono monitor to a VGA adaptor and it wasn't until much later that I realized that the poster probably didn't realize that they were really different.

In the same vein, we all look at the back of an old computer and recognize the typical outputs. 9 or 25 pin serial, 9 or 15 pin video etc. A short primer on the likely meanings of these things might be good.

The OP suggested warnings about certain things. Another one there would be regarding controllers and drives and how everything doesn't fit with everything. Pre IDE is a mystery to some people.

My own personal first learning experience with computers was understanding the twist in the floppy cable. That information is something thats not thought about much any more since we rarely see one, let alone two, floppies in a computer any more.

Oh, Oh, ... and the thing about track width and media coercivity difference between 360s and 1.2s. I don't think the basic document needs to include the details - a link for that is better.
 
You can't really blame those inexperienced whippersnappers. This generation has been pampered by all that easy "Plug & Play", "Fire & Forget", "jumperless", "zero-configuration", and "It Just Works™" stuff.

And most importantly, they were all born after Ghostbusters came out, so unfortunately they are not familiar with the golden rule: "Don't cross the streams!" ;)
 
digger said:
You can't really blame those inexperienced whippersnappers. This generation has been pampered by all that easy "Plug & Play", "Fire & Forget", "jumperless", "zero-configuration", and "It Just Works™" stuff.
Click to expand...

Although I occasionally like to blame young whippersnappers, I too would usually assume I could just plug in a card and it would work. But that's because I got used to "zero configuration" on Amigas - long before that sort of thing was available on most other computers.
 
I'd really like to know what you consider "young"... or, actually, how old these guys were who roasted their machines (That one YT video is blocked for my location unfortunately).
After all, I would consider myself a young collector (if you count underage as young - which you probably do since that means vintage computers are usually older than me).
 
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Yeah I'm a young member. What I learned? If the computer is older than you, ask questions about it, don't answer questions about it, unless you know for certain.
 
NsMn said:
I'd really like to know what you consider "young"... or, actually, how old these guys were who roasted their machines (That one YT video is blocked for my location unfortunately).
After all, I would consider myself a young collector (if you count underage as young - which you probably do since that means vintage computers are usually older than me).
Click to expand...

Not young. Younger. And I should probably have used the term "new" collector.
(If an admin wants to change the title to "New collectors with new......" that would be more appropriate).

If you didn't grow up with these machines, you probably won't know all the intricacies when you first start out collecting or using them.
If the computer is older than you, that would probably fit the bill of what I consider a younger collector, but there are others who are not younger but are new collectors.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a younger collector. I didn't start the thread to pigeon hole anyone or any group. More just to point out mistakes that I've made in the past (and I grew up with the machines) so that others hopefully, don't make the same mistakes (even though we usually learn from our own mistakes, rather than others mistakes).
 
Lorne said:
If you didn't grow up with these machines, you probably won't know all the intricacies when you first start out collecting or using them.
Click to expand...

Yes, and there are a lot of these intricacies. One that comes to mind is the common DB 25 pin female connector. In the vintage PC world these were used for the parallel printer port. However, in most other machines around the late 70s-early 80s these were serial (usually RS-232) connectors. Plug the wrong device in and.....

If you are not familiar with a particular vintage machine, never assume anything!

Tez
 
I tell you what, I sure was used to just plug and play when I got into vintage computers 5 years ago(joined the forum 4 years ago, previous to that I was just farting around). But, when I got my first load of vintage computers, I had the convenience of an entire library of user manuals, tech manuals, debugging information, etc. I also had a few DOS for dummies books. Those came in handy as well. Being the cautious person I am, I took the time to read every single manual and paper that I had reguarding my AT&T PC 6300 before so much as poking it with a stick.

I unfortunately didn't have much on the MFM hard drive, so that was something I at first figured out on my own by trial and error, and later actually understood why it worked. Things were so much different back in the 80s, which is when most of the machines we work with were built. Heck, computers today compared to just 15...or 10 years ago are almost unrecognisably changed.

We all take for granted the plug and play capabilities of our operating systems. But, when you spend 2 days straight getting one expansion card to work on your IBM 5150, Apple ][, Macintosh, or whatever computer it is you are working on, it is then that you truly are grateful for the wonderful technology that has been bestowed upon you.

Although, personally, if it weren't for these forums, I'd be sticking with my Macintosh SE or one of my IBM machines. Blasted Internet with its incredible information.....

--Ryan
BTW, I've always been very careful to park my MFM drives...But is it necessary to park a SCSI drive? I've never seen it in the manual to do so, or any program that might do it. I figure they autopark, but it never hurts to ask. I have a Seagate ST-something in WV that autoparks when shut down. Ha, thing was ridiculously loud though.
 
The one golden rule I always abide by is take the cover off and have a good look inside before powering up. Not only do you learn what sort of thing you are dealing with, but you have the opportunity to remove large chunks of fluff, critters etc. and check for damage, corrosion and other storage / age induced damage. Of course, be wary of high voltages, but since you will be opening up a machine after it likely spending 10+ years in storage, that isn't usually a problem.
Oh, and earth yourself, naturally...
 
I think it's also worth looking out for other people's repairs and alterations, at best these can lead to unexpected results at worst they can be lethal. I rememeber accidentaly brushing my finger against the power supply in a pc while I was trying to work out what was wrong with it, only to find that the power supply casing was live!
 
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 - I thought I posted this then, unless it got deleted or posted someplace else by moderators


Wow ! Tez, where do you find all these things !!!

Shows just how strong Kaypros were – all he did and what was the result?

You can stand on them even !!! I have many times.

What if the same was done to our computers of today ?

Sad to see a Kaypro destroyed, however. Is some “anger management” needed
there ?

Yes, all 5.25” disks do not work in Kaypros, even some Kaypro disks, as many of the new people find out. Kaypro had about 20 different CP/M machines after about 6 years of operation and many used different versions of CP/M. That is what probably contributed to their downfall as the draft of my Kaypro book notes.

I was just helping someone on that off line as PM’s.

Yes, we all have so much to learn – young and old – but how do you define young and old today – age, mentality, personality, maturity, etc.

So many think things are so “simple” and cannot be that complex!

At least for vintage computing, this web site is so invaluable – such a treasure of so much diverse information to help so many and all seem so willing to share it all, as opposed to so many areas of society today.

I worked for a very famous Fortune 500 company for a few years. Upper management just did not appreciate what we “bottom feeders” knew, which was the essence of why the company could run on a day to day basis. They learned, but many lost their jobs, because of their ignorance, but mostly us “bottom feeders” lost our jobs ! Upper management just got “transferred !”

So sad, but so common.

But on a humorous note, to end this post –

Our local electronic repair place got an old VCR player / recorder in many years ago, before DVD’s, since it was not working.

When the owner came in when he was told it was repaired, he noticed many smiles on the faces of the repair people.

He asked did you fix it. They said yes. But no charge ! It was too funny to charge for it.

Apparently, his young child had place a sandwich in the VCR slot. It just fit and they guessed he felt that that is where you put sandwiches !

So much to learn in one lifetime!

At least ask, if any uncertainty !

The patterns of such issues are the same, just different circumstances.

All the best !

Frank

P.S.

"LINUXLOVE" - looks like you have quite a career in computing ahead of you !

All the best - you are the future !!!
 
I'm a really young member as well (youngest, I think). I haven't killed a machine due to ignorance, and I always take to cover off of something before powering it up. My family, however, wears flannel pants around naked minitowers, and now may my Windows 95 AMD K6-2/300 R.I.P due to ESD killing the CMOS and bricking it. This is the first computer in my possession that has been killed. The rest have just developed weird issues with the motherboard/processor that cause the currently-running OS to freeze a lot.

The only computer I've turned on without looking inside is my laptops, two TRS-80 Model 100s and a Tandy 1100FD.
 
My family, however, wears flannel pants around naked minitowers, and now may my Windows 95 AMD K6-2/300 R.I.P due to ESD killing the CMOS and bricking it.
Click to expand...
OK, so I guess we should put flannel pants on the list of things to ask about. :)
 
Yzzerdd said:
BTW, I've always been very careful to park my MFM drives...But is it necessary to park a SCSI drive? I've never seen it in the manual to do so, or any program that might do it. I figure they autopark, but it never hurts to ask. I have a Seagate ST-something in WV that autoparks when shut down. Ha, thing was ridiculously loud though.
Click to expand...

Ridiculously loud seagate? I have one. It is ST-225 revision 2 (20 megs). The rev 2 is so loud it could be used as an alarm system. I call it the joke drive. My other ST-225 drives are much higher revisions and much quieter.

I have plugged a monochrome monitor into an ega card and gotten away with it (I just did it yesterday). I never plugged an ega monitor into an MDA card.

Oh and one more thing. If you accidentally plug a MFM/RLL drive into an ESDI controller the drive should survive. If you try to format it in disk manager you will see the low level format complete in a few seconds. This is the tip off that you F*cked up. I do not know if an ESDI drive connected to MFM/RLL controller will survive. MFM/RLL and ESDI connectors look exactly the same so be very careful! The signals are completely different and in no way compatible. Fortunately ESDI is very rare.

Yes this is my first post. I have lots of vintage stuff and experience to match. (Thanks to you guys I found out I could plug a monochrome monitor into a paradise ega with special jumper/DIP settings to get black brown and gold text. Haven't tested it yet but I have 2 paradise cards like that. I think I will try it on a pentium TX chipset router that rejected an old MDA card. MDA worked on a pentium FX or VX I forget. OK I'll stop hijacking the thread now.)
 
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"ole Juul" -

Totally agree !!!

As so many have said, it is what you "do not know" that can really hurt you !

Always ask even if not only if you "think" you know the answer, but the "uncertainties" as you mention !

Many stories as many have about working even for some large companies that have the big
resources to try to get things right.

So much to learn in just one lifetime.

Frank
 
If you are working with an XT or AT power supply (XT to pentium I era) the connectors have 2 parts. Notice one side of each has black wires. The black always goes in the middle! If you screw this up the power supply with fry and possibly the motherboard.

Square processors like 486 can be inserted the wrong way. Always look for the diagonal edge corner on the proc and line it up with the white trapezoid corner painted on the motherboard. Once this guy screwed that up and heard a high pitched scream for about 1 second and then the processor fried.
 
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