ST251-1 problems

[uriahsky]

I managed to get my ST251-1 to spin up by replacing those two caps near the power connector. But, the problem I get now is that it fails in the CMOS. I get a hard drive failure. Once the computer comes up it says setup error. I go into that and the hard drive area is blank. I change that to type 11 and hit escape to reboot, then it comes up and I can hear the drive start to read and then it comes back with the hard drive fail or not detected.

I am using a controller with the only markings on it are LCS66. There are a few WD chips on it. It has a floppy connector near the end followed by the long HD connector and two shorter HD connectors. I think I have it hooked up right. One cable going from the long HD Connector on the controller and using the last plug on the HD Cable plugging into the HD and then the other shorter connector right next to the longer connector on the controller going to the other HD plug. I don't have the manual for the controller. I am sure that is confusing. Does that sound like I have it hooked up correctly?

Is there anything else I can do to try and get this to work?

If not, would someone be open to me sending this to them to see if they can get the data off of the drive? You can keep the drive and controller card. I will try and find something newer. I would like the data. I need to make sure I can make a clone of this drive somehow. It is all DOS programing. And if you happen to have an ISA/EISA IDE Controller laying around you could send me that would help but is not necessary.

Thanks
Russ

 

[modem7]

So you are attempting to get the data off the drive.

The ST-251 is a MFM drive (ST506/ST412 interface). You will need to find a hard drive controller that uses the same low-level format as the format that is presently on the ST-251. Unless the low-level formats match, the controller will not be able to read/write the drive.

It's possible that you don't have the drive connected properly, or that on the computer you are using, type 11 isn't a match for the ST251, but I'd put my money on a low-level format mismatch.

If you use the 'seek test' of SpeedStor software, and that works, then that would point to a data related issue, the possible causes being:
1. Low-level format mismatch.
2. Wrong 20-pin connector on controller being used.
3. 20-pin cable is on upside down.

If the seek test of SpeedStor fails, then there are possible causes for that.

Whatever you do, don't low-level format the drive. SpeedStor uses the term "initiaize". Such actions will destroy the data on the drive.

If not, would someone be open to me sending this to them to see if they can get the data off of the drive?

Whereabouts in the world are you?

 

[uriahsky]

I am in California, Lompoc, near Vandenberg or Santa Barabara. This controller card did work with this machine at one time. So I am sure it is the right one and nothing was changed on it. It just sat for a real long time. I will check out the speed store and read up on what the low level format mismatch means. I don't suppose I can hook up a standard IDE Hard drive with this controller? Is there a usual way these cables hook up? Is the first drive always at the last HD connector on these cables like on on IDE Cables? Is the floppy usually the first connector on the right on controller card?
Thank you
Russ

 

[Stone]

FWIW, controller cards work with *all* machines -- it's the drives that were previously formatted with other controllers that they might not work with. So, the question remains whether this particular card is the one that used to work with this particular drive. If the answer is yes we can continue.

Why did you ask about using an IDE drive with this card when the drive in question is an MFM?

You (we) need to identify this controller. A nice, clear pic might just do the trick. Show as much detail as possible.

 

[modem7]

This controller card did work with this machine at one time. So I am sure it is the right one and nothing was changed on it. It just sat for a real long time. I will check out the speed store and read up on what the low level format mismatch means.

You don't need to. The drive must have been low-level formatted using that controller. Therefore there is no mismatch.

I don't suppose I can hook up a standard IDE Hard drive with this controller?

No.

Is there a usual way these cables hook up? Is the first drive always at the last HD connector on these cables like on on IDE Cables? Is the floppy usually the first connector on the right on controller card?

Hookup varies from controller to controller. A photo of the controller will help.

So, looking at a previous thread, it sounds like you removed the drive from your 'board tester', replaced a cap in the drive, and now when restoring the drive, suspect that you are not connecting up the drive properly.
If that's the case, it should be a matter of establishing correct hookup, and then observing that the board tester works.

 

[Stone]

Hey, modem7, we seem to be sharing a wavelength here. Could it possibly be that there is a cable or something running diametrically through the Earth with each of us on one end? I say this because we are physically pretty nearly located directly opposite one another.

 

[modem7]

Hey, modem7, we seem to be sharing a wavelength here. Could it possibly be that there is a cable or something running diametrically through the Earth with each of us on one end? I say this because we are physically pretty nearly located directly opposite one another.

If someone was to ask me whether or not I believed that six-legged green elephants exist, I would answer that I have not seen proof that such animals don't exist, and therefore that I cannot dismiss the existence of such creatures. The probability of existence is incredibly low, but nonetheless, the existence of such animals remains a possibility.

Therefore, until someone proves that the cable you write of doesn't exist, we have to consider the cable a possibility.

 

[uriahsky]

Yes, this drive was formatted and was working in this machine with that controller since it was first put together. They put the whole thing on a shelf for 20 years until I bought it.

I asked about the IDE drive because I have a large number of those sitting around and I wanted to swap out this MFM drive if it didn't work and put in a IDE Drive.

Can I use a 3.5" floppy with the controller I have?

I found out some info on the controller. It is a LCS-6622/w and if this forum lets me post a link it is:

http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-di...OSYSTEM-INC-Two-ST506-412-MFM-drives-100.html

if not, the info is on www.stason.org and can be found by entering LCS-6622/w in the search box. They seem to have info on a whole lot of computer hardware.

But, it I think I am hooking it up right. I marked the cables before disconnecting from the controller but not on the ends connecting to the drives. I thought the cables for the floppy drive and hard drive would be different but the seem both be 34 pin cables and that is where I am not 100% sure I hooked it up right. It looks like it uses a radial hook up because the computer had three drive cables. One 34 pin for the floppy, right? Two for the hard drive. a 34 pin and a 20 pin. and the hard drive was CN3, CN4 and the floppy was CN5.

The 34 pin cable for the hard drive has two connectors, like on standard IDE cables. Does the first drive or only drive in a system go on the end connector or the middle. I figure it was the end connector, but I tried both.

I think I have a few extra 3.5" floppy drives but I don't have a ISA, IDE hard drive controller. I found one for about 15.00 and I will probably order that if I can't get this ST251-1 working.

Thanks very much for the help
Russ

 

[modem7]

Yes, this drive was formatted and was working in this machine with that controller since it was first put together. They put the whole thing on a shelf for 20 years until I bought it.

20 years. So you found the CMOS/RTC backup battery dead, and the settings lost ?

If so, there is a possibility that the drive type number you are entering is incorrect. How did you arrive at type 11 ? Was that because the CMOS/RTC setup shows the cylinder/head/SPT count for each drive number ?

Can I use a 3.5" floppy with the controller I have?

stason.org's entry for the LCS-6622/w indicates, "Floppy drives supported: Two 360KB, 720KB, 1.2MB, or 1.44MB drives".
So the card supports 1.44MB.
If the motherboard's CMOS/RTC/BIOS setup allows a setting of 1.44MB for the floppy drive (and I'm sure it will), then the motherboard support is there.
You'll need to use DOS 3.3 or later.

But, it I think I am hooking it up right. I marked the cables before disconnecting from the controller but not on the ends connecting to the drives. I thought the cables for the floppy drive and hard drive would be different but the seem both be 34 pin cables and that is where I am not 100% sure I hooked it up right. It looks like it uses a radial hook up because the computer had three drive cables. One 34 pin for the floppy, right? Two for the hard drive. a 34 pin and a 20 pin. and the hard drive was CN3, CN4 and the floppy was CN5.

Yes, according to the stason.org diagram, CN5 is for the floppy drive, CN3/CN4 is for the hard drive.
It's very important that pin 1 of those controller connectors ends up being connected to pin 1 of the connectors on the drives.

The 34 pin cable for the hard drive has two connectors, like on standard IDE cables. Does the first drive or only drive in a system go on the end connector or the middle. I figure it was the end connector, but I tried both.

If it's a straight-through cable (no twisted wires), then either connector is fine, with a preference for the end connector. There's a presumption there that the cable is the original one used with the drive (e.g. you didn't substitute a twisted cable for a straight-through one).

If it's a twisted cable, then only one of the connectors will work (which one depends on the setting of the Drive Select jumpers on the drive).
The following link is an example of the configuration on an IBM AT: http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5170/misc/5170_hard_drive_cabling_single.jpg

 

[Druid6900]

Well, I've recovered the data on a 251 that sat in an unheated garage for 25 years, with the top of the bubble removed, and it's still working fine. However, Canada is a long way from California to ship a drive and controller to have the data (hopefully) recovered.

Perhaps someone qualified that is closer to you will take on the task.

 

[uriahsky]

OK, I am starting to understand this thing. Yes, the battery was dead and I see the message when booting. I am going to change it out today.

The cable has two connectors and one is twisted. They are keyed so I HD side will go in correctly and the other side is labeled. I just need to figure out if it was the end connector or the middle. That I am not sure of.

As far as the drive type, there was a manual with the machine and in it says to set the drive to type 11, but it also says it is a 40MB drive. I don't think type 11 is 40MB. So, if someone loses track of what drive type the HD was set at, how would you go about finding out which type it actually is?

Thanks very much for the help. I really appreciate all of the info.
Russ

 

[modem7]

As far as the drive type, there was a manual with the machine and in it says to set the drive to type 11, but it also says it is a 40MB drive. I don't think type 11 is 40MB. So, if someone loses track of what drive type the HD was set at, how would you go about finding out which type it actually is?

The ST-251-1 has 820 cylinders / 6 heads / 17 SPT.

The type number 11 in most (most, not all) AT clones is 855 cylinders / 5 heads / 17 SPT.
If that is what the type 11 in your motherboard is, then the type 11 setting is incorrect.

Most later AT clone motherboards have a user-definable hard drive setting, which allows the user to type in the cylinder/head/SPT counts. It is commonly implemented as type number 47 (set 47 and then you'll be prompted to enter the cylinder/head/SPT counts of the drive). Do you have that available? If so, select it and enter 820/6/17 (and a landing zone [LZ] of 910).

If a user-definable hard drive setting is not available to you, does the BIOS show you the cylinders/heads/SPT count that corresponds to each type number?
If so, look for the entry that shows 820 cylinders / 6 heads / 17 SPT.

If the cylinders/heads/SPT count for each type number is not shown to you, then there is a DOS program that can be run which will list that information.

 

[uriahsky]

It started working, I thought I replied to this thread a few days ago but I don't see my reply, Anyway, thank you very much for the help. There were a few things in the drive type setup that I wasn't sure about. The precomp? I set that -1, The landing zone I read in some other places on the St251-1 should be set to 820. I tried both and I forget which one worked but other than a bunch of read errors on certain files and boot errors, which I had to SYS C: from a DOS boot disc it seems to be working.

I got lucky and found a 3.5" Floppy drive and a cable for it and it worked the first try with that controller. So I was able to copy files from the drive over to the floppies. There weren't as many files on the disc as I had hoped but the tester is working so far. I have more testing to do to make sure it all works out OK but so far so good.

Thank you very much,
Russ