Floppy drive issues 5150

[PCFreek]

I have been resurrecting a 1985 IBM 5150. I have all 640k RAM going and get no errors on startup (yippee) and have verified it reads all RAM using Basic commands. I have no moved along to my next problem: The machine will not boot from a DOS disk or any disk.

Configuration:
Hard disk in left bay, floppy in right bay

SW1: 1 off, 7 and 8 on

I have lubricated the FDD slides as seen elsewhere in this forum as the floppy was quite stuck to the rails upon inspection.

Upon power up (takes about a minute), it accesses the drives and I get a single beep before Basic comes up. No errors.

I have swapped the drives (HDD on right, FDD on left) and upon power up, it accesses neither drive I get a single beep and a 601 error.


So then I tried SW1: 1off, 7 off, 8 on (as I am unsure if the HDD counts in the floppy drive count) and it behaves as follows:

Initially got "boot disk failure" or a "non-system disk... strike any key" message and it could obviously tell if I had a system disk in the drive.

After many control/alt/deletes and swapping between the 2 DOS disks that I have, I now get a ""Bad or missing command interpreter" message after a 30 second FDD access time.

I think I am on the right track, but this is as far as I can get. Any ideas? I have tried searching the threads, but the search engine returns a LOT of results that are not relevant.

I have swapped in another FDD controller card and it behaves exactly the same as above with either card

UPDATE: Now I am back to just "boot disk failure". Of interest, the HDD and FDD are always accessed simultaneously after a control/alt/delete. sometimes, the HDD light is on bright and solid while the FDD is being accessed... other times, the HDD lights is dimmer and blinks once every second or two while the FDD is being accessed.

 

[mikey99]

Not sure what you mean by swapping drives right/left. The FDD should always be attached to the floppy controller.
The FDD is typically in the left bay, HDD on the right (looking from the front of the chassis).
The HDD should be attached to a hard disk controller. So it doesnt matter which bay the drive is in provided
its attached to the correct controller.

What type of hard disk controller do you have in this system ?

 

[PCFreek]

I'm prepared to look very dumb here... I thought that the fdd controller would also control the hard disk as that was how it appeared to be wired when I got it. But now that I think about it, the hdd was sitting in the left bay and wasn't attached to the fdd ribbon cable. I attached it myself. I have a lot of cards with the computer. I'll look at it again tomorrow.

 

[PCFreek]

Ok... after reading your post, I got out of bed and had to try again.

I set SW1 to one floppy and disconnected the HDD. I get a "boot disk failure" every time now. Does it matter which plug I use on the ribbon cable? the controller is on plug 1, and the fdd is on 3 with the middle plug being unused.

I also looked at what I believe are my hdd controllers and I have the following 2 boards:

IBM 1501492

Adaptec 2002 Assy No. 400076-00 (1983 Rev C)

 

[PCFreek]

With internal HDD attached to either the IBM or adaptec controller, I get a 1701 error followed by disk boot failure.

I also have a Franklin FTC 15/5 CS external hard drive (which also has some kind of drive like a large zip drive in the front). This also gives the same error as above.

I'm calling it a night. I will open and clean my other 2 FDD's tomorrow and try swapping them in.

 

[SpidersWeb]

Floppy cables and MFM hard drive cables have the same connector, but if they're twisted then the twists are in different places. So keep that in mind.

The two cards you mentioned are both hard drive controllers, make sure only one is connected, if you're using the original Seagate ST-412 then use the IBM controller. What hard drive do you have?

What cables do you have?

If you DO have the original ST-412, check out http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5160/misc/5160_hard_drive_cabling_single.jpg (the rest of http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/ is worth a read too - lots you can learn from there!). Take special note of the cables - plural. If necessary I can rip one of my open and pop up a video.

 

[PCFreek]

Floppy cables and MFM hard drive cables have the same connector, but if they're twisted then the twists are in different places. So keep that in mind.

The two cards you mentioned are both hard drive controllers, make sure only one is connected, if you're using the original Seagate ST-412 then use the IBM controller. What hard drive do you have?

What cables do you have?

If you DO have the original ST-412, check out http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5160/misc/5160_hard_drive_cabling_single.jpg (the rest of http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/ is worth a read too - lots you can learn from there!). Take special note of the cables - plural. If necessary I can rip one of my open and pop up a video.

Holy Crap!!! I'm surprised these computers even caught on! with today's plug and play, you forget what we used to go through back in the day!! I've been running the internal HDD with only a control cable. I wouldn't even have a data cable if I didn't have a brand new half height HDD that is unused in its original box with cables! As stated in another thread, I bought this 5150 to help me resurrect a VERY early 16-64k 1981 5150 and this newer machine came with a LOT of extra parts and boards (Thank God!) So back to answering your question:

Internal HDD is an IMI 5012H (1984 IBM branded) I do not see jumper settings on this drive.
Cables are not branded
The NOS half height HDD is: MiniScribe 8425

When I bought this machine on Craigslist, the guy said it was still set up just like he last used it. The internal HDD (as mentioned above) was sitting in the left bay unattached. the external HDD (Franklin FTC 15/5 CS ) was using the adaptec board with 3 ribbon cables: J0, J1, and J2. I assume the extra cable is for the odd looking drive (zip drive?) I will try to boot the machine with the external HDD only. When I tried to boot with the external HDD earlier, I believe that I still have the internal HDD connected to the FDD controller.

 

[PCFreek]

OK... updated configurations:

1 FDD
SW1: 1 off, 7 on, 8 on
External HDD connected to adaptec using J0, J1, and J2

When the machine boots, it goes through the usual long RAM check and then accesses the external HDD for about 30 seconds or more before giving error 1701. It then accesses the FDD for about a half minute or so before giving "bad or missing command interpreter". DOS disk was inserted.

1 FDD
SW1: 1 off, 7 on, 8 on
Internal IMI HDD connected to IBM controller using J1, and J2

When the machine boots, it goes through the usual long RAM check but does not seem to access the internal HDD before giving error 1701. It then accesses the FDD for about a half minute or so before giving "bad or missing command interpreter". DOS disk was inserted.

1 FDD
SW1: 1 off, 7 on, 8 on
Internal IMI HDD connected to adaptec controller using J0, and J1

When the machine boots, it goes through the usual long RAM check but does not seem to access the internal HDD before giving error 1701. It then accesses the FDD for about a half minute or so before giving "bad or missing command interpreter". DOS disk was inserted.

1 FDD, No HDD
SW1: 1 off, 7 on, 8 on

When the machine boots, it goes through the usual long RAM check with no errors. It then accesses the FDD for about a half minute or so before giving "bad or missing command interpreter". DOS disk was inserted.

I have 2 DOS disks... same message is generated with either disk.

 

[modem7]

1 FDD, No HDD
SW1: 1 off, 7 on, 8 on

When the machine boots, it goes through the usual long RAM check with no errors. It then accesses the FDD for about a half minute or so before giving "bad or missing command interpreter". DOS disk was inserted.

I have 2 DOS disks... same message is generated with either disk.

The "Bad or Missing Command Interpreter" error message is not generated by the 5150 motherboard nor any expansion card. It is generated by DOS itself. That means that the 5150 actually started to read and execute sectors from the boot floppy, but has fallen over at the point where it went to read COMMAND.COM

Intermittent head stepping due to deteriorated lubrication might cause that, but you wrote that you cleaned/lubricated the floppy drive rails.

You know that the boot floppy is good.

Try reseating the floppy controller card a few times in case of a poor connection.

Try the floppy controller from your other 5150.

Try a different floppy drive (which you have written that you intend to do).

 

[PCFreek]

This forum is great! you guys are great! I went through Modem7's steps and I decided to clean/lubricate the rails of my newest FDD drive again when nothing else worked. The rails were clean in all areas that I could easily reach, but the light machine oil that I had used was no longer visible and the rails looked dry. I took the hinged arm (that snaps down on top of the disk) out by removing the 2 screws at the rear and cleaned more rail. I also cleaned from the bottom which I failed to do before. This time I used dialectric grease on the rails before reassembly.... and SUCCESS!! There is also a metal part (almost like a counter balance or weight) that had sticky grease under it. I rotated it, cleaned it, and put dialectric grease under it as well. I'll add a pic of that shortly. Both of my DOS disks are also working properly.

 

[PCFreek]

Picture of my FDD and the additional area that required cleaning and lubrication.



UPDATE: I now have all 3 of my FDD's working and have found that all 3 of my controller cards (including the early controller card) are good as well. One of the FDD's was quite stubborn with repeated "boot disk failure" messages even after the first 2 cleanings. I turned it on its side and lubricated the bearings in the motor then proceeded to slide the mechanism up and down the rails a hundred times or so over the course of 5 minutes. This seemed to do the trick as it now boots normally. I was very happy to see this stubborn one return to life as it is my oldest FDD and my only IBM branded one at that.

 

[PCFreek]

So I was just showing my 15yr old how cool old computers are when I inserted a disk that had 3 games on it. I hadn't tried it yet. First message popped up with abort/retry/fail... I aborted and pulled the directory back up to try the next game. Same thing... abort/retry/fail... I tried to pull the directory back up again and now the drive no longer accesses any of my disks. I have swapped FDDs, swapped the FDD controller, and swapped the cable with known good replacements. Nothing works... It boots straight to Basic every time. I then installed 2 FDD's and set the SW1 to 7off/8on. The drive in the left bay is not accessed at all during boot up and the drive in the right bay is accessed momentarily before it goes to Basic. I switched the 2 drives and it still only accesses the one on the right. Considering that all of my FDDs, controllers, and cable worked earlier... and now they don't work... I believe the issue is with the motherboard. any suggestions?

UPDATE: I have rocked the switches quite a few times but this makes no difference. Still boots straight to Basic regardless of which FDD, controller, or cable I use.

 

[Stone]

The drive's heads are fouled -- this happens all the time with old software. You need to clean the heads. A cleaning diskette with solution is by far the best way to go as this will likely happen again as you use older disks. Once you get the drive(s) working again you'll need to discard that bad floppy disk.

 

[PCFreek]

The drive's heads are fouled -- this happens all the time with old software. You need to clean the heads. A cleaning diskette with solution is by far the best way to go as this will likely happen again as you use older disks. Once you get the drive(s) working again you'll need to discard that bad floppy disk.

I bet that you are absolutely correct... I used a dusty disk and could hear it sounding gritty in the drive. the 2nd drive I inserted probably just isn't working smoothly and could uses further manipulation so its failure is a coincidence. I did not try my oldest drive as I do not want anything to happen to it.

 

[Stone]

I wasn't talking about dust. The surface of the floppy deteriorates with age and some of the oxide coating rubs off onto the heads and fouls them. There's nothing you can do about it except to clean the drive's heads and toss the offending disk(s).

 

[PCFreek]

Thanks Stone. I cleaned the heads with a Q-tip and denatured alcohol and it works fine. I also opened up that dirty floppy and cleaned the magnetic disk , reassembled it, and tried it again and once again you are correct. it wasn't that it was just dusty, its just bad and wont read completely and is loud when it spins. Not only was it stored in a warm humid environment, it was probably a low quality low budget disk when it was made 30 years ago. I was just determined to play some game involving 8 bit sound and a stick figure!!!. Now I will need to clean my drive head again. I'm learning. Thanks!