Selling old registered DOS programs - is that legal??

[calcuttaman]

I've got quite a bit of old DOS software (And paper books/manuals) some of it is commercial (WordPerfect 5.1, PCPlus, etc) and other is shareware.

Is it legal to sell these? Some of it I have original disks and other's I have registered copies that I d/l'ed after paying for them.

A few of the items....

WP 5.1
Pkzip
PC Plus
List Enhanced
DSZ
HSlink
Stacker
Printshop
Keen all versions
Wacky Wheels
Catdisk
Cosmo
and many more

 

[mbbrutman]

Few people here are qualified to dispense legal advice, and those that are probably want to bill for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

Basically, you can sell the original physical object to whomever you want. The license to use the software may not be legal to transfer though. Read the license agreements to see if they can be transferred.

Now even if you violate the law, did you do something morally wrong? I doubt it. But that's between you and the copyright holder to argue, if they ever find out (or care).

 

[pcm2a]

Seems more legal than the modded Xbox 360 I sold on ebay with 50 burned games. Can something be more or less legal?

 

[mbbrutman]

Seems more legal than the modded Xbox 360 I sold on ebay with 50 burned games. Can something be more or less legal?

Is that something you really want to post in public?

 

[Maverick1978]

... and many more

I've replied with a PM.

Curious - can you post a list of what else you may have?

 

[barythrin]

Mike's first answer really wraps it up. We all have our opinions and interpretations but it's the judge that gets the final interpretation and that's based on the End User License Agreement sold with the license. If it's transferable it's probably fine as long as you don't have it installed anywhere else with that license. Same thing if you buy a single license you're usually only entitled to use it on one system, it's your own morals or legal issue if you decide to install it everywhere around the house.

The debatable stuff has been usually disregarded as too risky to sell like mp3s, etc. Early one a few folks tested the waters by selling an mp3 they bought on ebay (for charity). After the debate by the media and music industry (well RIAA) thought that was completely ridiculous and unfair that they can't distribute the music but of course his debate was I bought it, you sold it as an alternative to the physical media.. I have the one copy of the song I own so I should be able to sell it otherwise it's useless and a lie. Same thing with ebooks. Interesting times.

But I digress.. any of us saying yay or nay is a personal point of view and there is no blanket correct answer.

 

[FishFinger]

Depends entirely on where you live. In the US it probably varies by state like most things. In Europe EULAs are completely unenforceable, in other countries you'd have to check your local laws...

 

[Shadow Lord]

I've replied with a PM.

Curious - can you post a list of what else you may have?

What he said! Registered SW is questionable to sell. If you do sell make sure not to keep any copies for yourself/backup. Even then you are not in the clear but honestly I doubt anyone will try to prove harm on a $20 piece of SW that has not been available for sale for 20+ years! Of course I am not a lawyer and what may seem perfectly reasonable/logical to me may seem like a tremendous litigious matter to them :D.

 

[Trixter]

Few people here are qualified to dispense legal advice, and those that are probably want to bill for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

Basically, you can sell the original physical object to whomever you want. The license to use the software may not be legal to transfer though. Read the license agreements to see if they can be transferred.

Now even if you violate the law, did you do something morally wrong? I doubt it. But that's between you and the copyright holder to argue, if they ever find out (or care).

Worth repeating.

To add to the above, I spoke with a lawyer 14 years ago as research for an article I was writing, and what it came down to was "are you causing an individual financial harm?" If so, expect a cease and desist letter. If not, expect nothing.

With the exception of the Keen games and maybe a few other games, all of the products listed are not commercially available and haven't been for over a decade.

 

[barythrin]

To add to the above, I spoke with a lawyer 14 years ago as research for an article I was writing, and what it came down to was "are you causing an individual financial harm?" If so, expect a cease and desist letter. If not, expect nothing.

With the exception of the Keen games and maybe a few other games, all of the products listed are not commercially available and haven't been for over a decade.

That's where we get ourselves in trouble for suggesting. You're right that it's all about financial damages (preventing sales) which causes folks to think that "it's not made anymore, they aren't selling it anymore.. let's call it abandonware and distribute it!". It's a misnomer, the IP is still owned by the company regardless of if they make money off it or sell it so no it's not free to distribute. But anyway, that gets into our own opinions of "should/will anyone care?". Usually no but some companies ::cou::SCO::gh:: live off lawsuits and suing folks who distribute things they bought and pretend cause damage to their income.

 

[Trixter]

A little research turns up some interesting things. Worried about pirating WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS? Here's an author that used it for THREE DECADES and he finally switched when Corel simply stopped responding to him: http://www.garynorth.com/public/7667.cfm

Here's some info on the other stuff in the original post:

Pkzip: DOS version not available for purchase for over a decade
List Enhanced: V. Buerg is sadly no longer with us
DSZ: Still around, and for sale! http://www.omen.com/
Stacker: Company dissolved and assets traded to Previo, then Altiris, then sucked up by Symantec and never seen again.
Printshop: Miraculously, version 23 (!) is still being sold: http://www.broderbund.com/c-31-the-print-shop.aspx
Keen all versions: These are for sale at various places (Steam)

Speaking purely as myself with my own opinions, I would personally distribute registered versions of pkzip for dos, list enhanced, stacker, and WP 5.1 from the OP's list.

 

[Unknown_K]

Worth repeating.

To add to the above, I spoke with a lawyer 14 years ago as research for an article I was writing, and what it came down to was "are you causing an individual financial harm?" If so, expect a cease and desist letter. If not, expect nothing.

With the exception of the Keen games and maybe a few other games, all of the products listed are not commercially available and haven't been for over a decade.

I am sure a lawyer would argue that illegally using the old program they no longer sell or support is keeping you from buying their newer one they do sell and support.

 

[Shadow Lord]

DSZ: Still around, and for sale! http://www.omen.com/
Speaking purely as myself with my own opinions, I would personally distribute registered versions of pkzip for dos, list enhanced, stacker, and WP 5.1 from the OP's list.

Just because they are still around doesn't mean they are selling it. Personally speaking I tried multiple times over a period of a couple of years to contact the author of Modem Doctor to see if he was still taking orders. Even though the website was being updated I never got a response on the sale.

 

[Trixter]

I am sure a lawyer would argue that illegally using the old program they no longer sell or support is keeping you from buying their newer one they do sell and support.

Not if the newer program doesn't run on my hardware.

Just because they are still around doesn't mean they are selling it.

True, but the link you made this comment on actually does have items (devkit, embedded version) listed for sale. At the very least, it couldn't hurt to contact Chuck Forsberg and ask.

 

[Shadow Lord]

True, but the link you made this comment on actually does have items (devkit, embedded version) listed for sale. At the very least, it couldn't hurt to contact Chuck Forsberg and ask.

I agree with what you are saying. I was just making an observation that WWW presence != functioning corporation. In DSZ case it might but in Modem Doctor's case the author doesn't give a damn.

I also agree with you that most won't care but you never know.

 

[g4ugm]

I think we are kind of missing the point. You don't own software, you don't buy it, you buy a license to use it. So if the licence says its transferable, then you can transfer the licence. If it says its not transferable then that's a difference ball game and as other have said you may need to consult a lawyer and check local rules.

 

[SomeGuy]

I've got quite a bit of old DOS software (And paper books/manuals) some of it is commercial (WordPerfect 5.1, PCPlus, etc) and other is shareware.

On a more practical note, if you have factory-pressed original disks and manuals, those are fairly easy to sell. I'll assume you are talking about eBay, but this could apply elsewhere.

Separate out anything that has both the original disks and manuals for individual sale. Make sure all disks of a set are present. Boxes are a plus, good condition is a plus. It is nice if you can verify that the disks are readable.

Any other original disks with titles that stand out, you may wish to sell individually or as a small lot. A small lot is more likely to move faster.

The rest, you would probably need to sell as a lot of "assorted MS-DOS software". List the titles, and provide readable photographs of the disks showing their labels. List titles as clearly as possible in the description. You may explain if it includes registered shareware here.

Old personal collections of floppy disks show up periodically. However, in general, buyers don't seem to care for non-factory original disks.

Registered shareware is problematic as it is often registered in one person's name. On the off chance there is still support for it, the vendor might choose to not transfer support to the buyer. I've also seen some programs that encode sort of a hash of the user name/company in the provided serial number, so both must match when they entered them. Others write you name in to the executable. Not very desirable.

In other words, you will be lucky to get the price of just a used floppy disk.

 

[Hatta]

I think we are kind of missing the point. You don't own software, you don't buy it, you buy a license to use it.

That's a myth perpetuated by copyright maximalists. Copyright merely restricts the ability to copy(and publicly perform but that doesn't apply here) a work. If you own a copy, there is nothing in the law that prevents you from using it. And the right of first sale applies just like any other purchase.

Now, it may be the case that a software company requires you to agree to a EULA before they sell you their product. But that doesn't mean you don't own it, any more than you don't own the smartphone you bought under contract.

 

[barythrin]

It'd probably be a demanding and not often used registry but I wonder if there is one for software? That'd be pretty fun to see who owns old stuff and have a contact database (something archive.org or perhaps EFF could rangle).

 

[mbbrutman]

That's a myth perpetuated by copyright maximalists. Copyright merely restricts the ability to copy(and publicly perform but that doesn't apply here) a work. If you own a copy, there is nothing in the law that prevents you from using it. And the right of first sale applies just like any other purchase.

Now, it may be the case that a software company requires you to agree to a EULA before they sell you their product. But that doesn't mean you don't own it, any more than you don't own the smartphone you bought under contract.

That is not a myth. Have you read any license agreements lately?

A lot of software is sold as a physical artifact (the CD) and a license that you must agree to before using it. You may own the physical object. The physical object is covered by the first sale doctrine. But if the license to use it is not transferable then you don't have the right to transfer it. You can sell the physical object but the purchaser will not be able to meet the terms of the license agreement.

A well written license agreement will tell you whether you have the right to transfer the license or not, and if so, how the transfer is to be conducted.

The first person to "purchase" the software and use it often winds up agreeing to the conditions of the license agreement, usually because they just clicked the box and continued on. Whether a restrictive license agreement is conscionable or not remains to be determined. However, I'm going to bet that everybody here has clicked through most of their license agreements without reading them.

Here is a great example: You know all of those MP3s people are "purchasing" on iTunes? Guess what ... it is a license agreement. Which is why you can't resell an MP3. If it was something you purchased you would own it and the doctrine of first sale would apply. But iTunes uses license agreements.