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5160 Not booting and some basic questions

daveyk021

Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2023
Messages
31
I acquired a 5160 that was in storage, un-touch since about 1988 in a box.

Before turning it on, I pulled all the cards and drives and blew some dust out of it. Once I was sure the PS was good and no tantalum exploded, I put it back together.

The 20mb Type 2 hard drives sounds like in initializes, knocks around a bit. The head motor does turn and do some basic seeking.

After testing memory, the floppy drive is address and tries to boot, then the hard drive light comes on and flickers. Then BASIC comes up.

Where do people working on these old computers come up with bootable DOS floppies (360K btw)? Unfortunately, I do not have anyone near central, PA that are in to trying to restore these old things and it has been so long for me. I was still using the TRS80 Model 4 when this came out and to about 1990. Then I got in to PCs.

What version of DOS should I look for this machine? I would assume DOS 6.x would not work. Did I read somewhere that this needs DOS 2.0?

I guess I can start looking on EBAY for DOS and hope the floppies boot, than I will able to test this hard drive (Seagate ST225, I think).

I could just use a little assistance getting started. I also need to build up another system, maybe a K6, with multiple drives so I can make disks for these older ones, but I haven't started that yet.

Thanks kindly,
Dave
 
PC-DOS 6 can work. Minimum DOS with hard drive support is MSDOS 2. Usually, DOS 3.3 is the preferred version for the XT. Most of the advantages* of DOS 5 and 6 aren't useful on an XT. How much memory is installed in the XT? Later DOS versions need more memory. Without a memory card, the typical XT will have 256K which doesn't leave much room for applications.

* DOS 5 and 6 permit loading part of DOS in extended memory. XTs lack extended memory. DOS 6 has disk compression but the XT is somewhat slow for that.

I hope someone can mail you a starter disk to get the process started. Verifying the state of the system would help inform what options might be needed. The 20 MB hard drives were about the longest lived drives ever made but still fail eventually.
 
PC-DOS 6 can work. Minimum DOS with hard drive support is MSDOS 2. Usually, DOS 3.3 is the preferred version for the XT. Most of the advantages* of DOS 5 and 6 aren't useful on an XT. How much memory is installed in the XT? Later DOS versions need more memory. Without a memory card, the typical XT will have 256K which doesn't leave much room for applications.

* DOS 5 and 6 permit loading part of DOS in extended memory. XTs lack extended memory. DOS 6 has disk compression but the XT is somewhat slow for that.

I hope someone can mail you a starter disk to get the process started. Verifying the state of the system would help inform what options might be needed. The 20 MB hard drives were about the longest lived drives ever made but still fail eventually.

Memory? It is fully loaded and has a memory expansion/rtc/port card in it fully loaded. It counts to 640K. How much additional on that card I am not sure yet.

This computer is dated from 1986, so it has the half height 360K 5 1/4" floppy. Brackets are such that installing a second drive 5.25" or 3.5" is going to be a hassle and might take some dremeling and modification of the brackets. I wouldn't mind installing a 3.5" drive. Can a 3.5" high density drive work as a 720K Double density?

The same is true for the hard drive bay. It has a Seagate ST-225 mounted at the top of the bay, but it is only set up for the one drive. Adding another 5.25" Hard drive would take some work.

I did order an ST225 from someone off of EBAY for $100 (uuugh) but he shows it working and the results of testing on an XT, and it comes bootable with DOS6 installed. He used a different controller card in his XT than I have, so I don't know if it will boot with mine, but I can try.

I don't know if my HD is bad (probably is), or was just wiped out before being put in to storage.

I ordered DOS 3.0 and 6.2 from EBAY and maybe DOS 5, I don't remember. I think the 5.0 comes on 3.5" DD (720K). The DOS 3 is on 5.25" 360K, un-opened. (Now to pray the disks are good after these 40+ years). The DOS 6.2 in on 5.25, but 1.2mb, which the XT cannot handle.

Of all the things, these youtubers sell in their stores. Their DOS utility collection on floppy and Compact Flash would be something I would pay for!! Save me a lot of time downloading all of those and trying to transfer them over to older systems, like this.

If I can get a 3.5" drive installed, or at least working on the end of a cable might be a big help. I could possible write 3.5" DD disks from a modern computer, but not bootable of course, if an external 3.5" USB drive can write DD, instead of HD. Maybe bootable if there are images available to download. I don't know if anyone would have published an image of a bootable DOS disk (licensing, Microsoft, et al. - I don't know if they would care or not - probably not, but people probably don't want to take that chance). I wish there was an external USB 5.25" drive - lol.

I do have a K6 tower to work on. I was thinking it would be one to put every possible media drive in and use it to make disks for systems like this, but I made the mistake to choose this 5160 first. I was just anxious to see what one was like after being put in to storage for 40+ years, a year after it was new. The 5153 monitor CRT is vert bright and sharp. Maybe the best CRT I have been able to collect yet. The Keyboard (heavy bugger) is mint. The printer is mint (not that I really want to fool with that).
 
I do have a K6 tower to work on. I was thinking it would be one to put every possible media drive in and use it to make disks for systems like this, ...
As for putting a 360K drive into that computer, be aware of the comments on the diagram at [here].

What I use for transferring files between my IBM 5160 and my WIN10 computer is a CF. An XT-CF card in the IBM 5160 and, a card reader attached to my WIN10 computer. That, and some other possible file transfer methods are listed at [here].

The 20mb Type 2 hard drives sounds like in initializes, knocks around a bit. The head motor does turn and do some basic seeking.
At [here] is a video of my ST-225 at power-on, disconnected from the controller card. And so that is my ST-255 stepping its heads as part of the self test.

I did order an ST225 from someone off of EBAY for $100 (uuugh) but he shows it working and the results of testing on an XT, and it comes bootable with DOS6 installed. He used a different controller card in his XT than I have, so I don't know if it will boot with mine, but I can try.
Yes, a 'suck it and see' situation.

I don't know if my HD is bad (probably is), or was just wiped out before being put in to storage.
We have seen cases where over many years of non-use, the computer's faulty hard drive came good after the owner kept trying to use the computer many times.
A hypothesis is: In very long term storage, the grease on the hard drive's spindle partially solidified. As the owner kept trying to use the computer, the grease slowly returned to a usable state."

However, I think that can be ruled out in your case. Your drive is head stepping at power-on. Normally, the intelligence in the drive's logic board won't move the heads if the spindle has not reached terminal/final speed.
Plus, you are not reporting an on-screen 1701 error, and so that it a good sign.

When you get DOS up and running, see what the RATXYMFM tool at [here] reports. If 'Part 5 of 5' is successful, then perhaps attempt partitioning and high-level formatting.
 
As for putting a 360K drive into that computer, be aware of the comments on the diagram at [here].

What I use for transferring files between my IBM 5160 and my WIN10 computer is a CF. An XT-CF card in the IBM 5160 and, a card reader attached to my WIN10 computer. That, and some other possible file transfer methods are listed at [here].

Thank you. I do have one, maybe two of those to build up. Can I format a CF car to be bootable from my modern Windows 10/11 computer? I need to follow those links you have so kind to provide.

At [here] is a video of my ST-225 at power-on, disconnected from the controller card. And so that is my ST-255 stepping its heads as part of the self test.


Yes, a 'suck it and see' situation.

LOL; we' will see. The ST225 in this 5160 makes several "clunking" sounds doing it's spin up.

We have seen cases where over many years of non-use, the computer's faulty hard drive came good after the owner kept trying to use the computer many times.
A hypothesis is: In very long term storage, the grease on the hard drive's spindle partially solidified. As the owner kept trying to use the computer, the grease slowly returned to a usable state."

The platter motor shaft spins rather well; I looked in to that. Still I may just put it on a bench and let it run.

However, I think that can be ruled out in your case. Your drive is head stepping at power-on. Normally, the intelligence in the drive's logic board won't move the heads if the spindle has not reached terminal/final speed.
Plus, you are not reporting an on-screen 1701 error, and so that it a good sign.

When you get DOS up and running, see what the RATXYMFM tool at [here] reports. If 'Part 5 of 5' is successful, then perhaps attempt partitioning and high-level formatting.

The "clunking" aside, perhaps it was totally wiped when put in to storage. I will know that once I make some bootable floppies with utilities.

Again, thank you for the links!

Dave
 
As for putting a 360K drive into that computer, be aware of the comments on the diagram at [here].

What I use for transferring files between my IBM 5160 and my WIN10 computer is a CF. An XT-CF card in the IBM 5160 and, a card reader attached to my WIN10 computer. That, and some other possible file transfer methods are listed at [here].


At [here] is a video of my ST-225 at power-on, disconnected from the controller card. And so that is my ST-255 stepping its heads as part of the self test.


Yes, a 'suck it and see' situation.


We have seen cases where over many years of non-use, the computer's faulty hard drive came good after the owner kept trying to use the computer many times.
A hypothesis is: In very long term storage, the grease on the hard drive's spindle partially solidified. As the owner kept trying to use the computer, the grease slowly returned to a usable state."

However, I think that can be ruled out in your case. Your drive is head stepping at power-on. Normally, the intelligence in the drive's logic board won't move the heads if the spindle has not reached terminal/final speed.
Plus, you are not reporting an on-screen 1701 error, and so that it a good sign.

When you get DOS up and running, see what the RATXYMFM tool at [here] reports. If 'Part 5 of 5' is successful, then perhaps attempt partitioning and high-level formatting.
Thanks to your help, I made a 3.5" 720K bootable floppy. I ordered some cables and adapters (nice to have around) to hook up a 3.5" drive to the 5160, hopefully this weekend. If the disk really works, then I should be able to make bootable 360K 5.25" media too, and I will be able to test the hard drive that is in the 5160.

Do you know if there are any, maybe 3D printable drive cages for the 5160? Those steel cages do not allow for another drive to be added either to the Hard Drive side or the floppy side. Of course, I probably just want to keep it original on the outside anyway. I could get a CF-IDE working internally and not have to worry too much about using the actual drives in the system.

I also have seen, a while back, so my memory is a bit foggy, a youtube video about an IDE XT ROM board that provides bios to use and IDE drive pcb in these things (I may have order a batch of these board from PCBWay last year know I would want to use them sometime; I have to look). Would not the IDE-XT board or the 8 bit IDE interface (if there is such a thing) already have a bios rom to do that? All that is on that board is a ROM. I need to rewatch and dig in to do some more research.

Sorry for constantly chatting about this, but is becoming interesting. I am relearning a lot that I am sure I have forgotten from the 1980 and 1990s. These new computer we have make us mentally lazy and forget what the good ole days were like.
 
Can I format a CF car to be bootable from my modern Windows 10/11 computer?
That subject has been discussed many times in these forums. What has worked for person X doesn't work for person Y, and so. The guaranteed method that works is doing the partitioning and formatting at the vintage computer.

Do you know if there are any, maybe 3D printable drive cages for the 5160?
I don't, but maybe someone else here does.

I could get a CF-IDE working internally and not have to worry too much about using the actual drives in the system.
The host computer is an IBM 5160, and so I see the only risk being that the particular model of CF purchased for the XT-CF card is incompatible with the particular model of XT-CF.
This is more than 'some models of XT-CF require a CF that works in 8-bit mode'.
There are just some combinations of hardware that are incompatible.

(And be sure not put the XT-CF into expansion slot #8 unless the particular model of XT-CF has a switch/jumper to allow that. )

I also have seen, a while back, so my memory is a bit foggy, a youtube video about an IDE XT ROM board that provides bios to use and IDE drive pcb in these things (I may have order a batch of these board from PCBWay last year know I would want to use them sometime; I have to look). Would not the IDE-XT board or the 8 bit IDE interface (if there is such a thing) already have a bios rom to do that? All that is on that board is a ROM. I need to rewatch and dig in to do some more research.
These XT-IDE/XT-CF cards are supported by a BIOS expansion ROM, loaded with the XTIDE Universal BIOS (a.k.a. XUB). So if you look at all of the XT-IDE/XT-CF cards at [here], you will see an EEPROM on them.

The XUB can support card types other than XT-IDE/XT-CF. And so for those situations, people may host the XUB in the ROM socket of a network card, or say, a card that's only functionality is to provide a ROM socket.
For example, in your 5160 (but not a 5150), you could:
- Host the XUB somewhere; and
- Fit a 16-bit IDE ISA controller (yes, in an 8-bit slot) with 16-bit IDE drive; and
- Configure the XUB for the controller type of: '16-bit ISA IDE in 8-bit mode'.

I am relearning a lot that I am sure I have forgotten from the 1980 and 1990s. These new computer we have make us mentally lazy and forget what the good ole days were like.
Yep. The good old days of computers. High failure rate and many incompatibilities/problems. :-)
They kept me employed.
The AST list at [here] serves as a wonderful reminder to us of the times.
 
The XUB can support card types other than XT-IDE/XT-CF. And so for those situations, people may host the XUB in the ROM socket of a network card, or say, a card that's only functionality is to provide a ROM socket.
For example, in your 5160 (but not a 5150), you could:
- Host the XUB somewhere; and
- Fit a 16-bit IDE ISA controller (yes, in an 8-bit slot) with 16-bit IDE drive; and
- Configure the XUB for the controller type of: '16-bit ISA IDE in 8-bit mode'.

Maybe that is what I recollect I saw. A card with just a rom on it in one of the ISA slot to support another IDE controller. It may have even been used on a x286 mother board. Or it one in one of these with the 16 biot IDE controller plugged in to an 8 bit slot but supporting a standard IDE drive. It may have been on an episode of Adrian's Basement. I will look through old videos of his.

I will also look through the XT-IDE adaptor I have (plus I ordered a new one that sticks out the back of the PC). I am sure they already have ROMS on them.

Yep. The good old days of computers. High failure rate and many incompatibilities/problems. :-)
They kept me employed.
The AST list at [here] serves as a wonderful reminder to us of the times.

We didn't have the internet. We had magazines and other computer uses in out area to work out problems with. If you were living in a small rural area, getting local help was hard. You had to figure out everything on your own, or make phone calls to sellers or MFGs (and remember long distance wasn't free back then). I really don't remember having that many problems that I couldn't solve.
 
Good, I see that Modem7 has been giving you some good tips. Read everything on his site about the IBM 5160. It will help. You also found Adrian's Digital Basement. Lots of good stuff on old PC's. Also look up Epitronics on YT for more great IBM info.

I do not have a 5160 but I have a 5162. I think you can boot from a 720K 3.5" disk on the 5160 so if you can get that done you'll be in good shape. I have good success using an XT-IDE card with CF cards on my XT class machines. I used these:


I also use MS-DOS 3.3 on the XT machines.

Welcome to VCF Forum

Seaken
 
That subject has been discussed many times in these forums. What has worked for person X doesn't work for person Y, and so. The guaranteed method that works is doing the partitioning and formatting at the vintage computer.


I don't, but maybe someone else here does.


The host computer is an IBM 5160, and so I see the only risk being that the particular model of CF purchased for the XT-CF card is incompatible with the particular model of XT-CF.
This is more than 'some models of XT-CF require a CF that works in 8-bit mode'.
There are just some combinations of hardware that are incompatible.

(And be sure not put the XT-CF into expansion slot #8 unless the particular model of XT-CF has a switch/jumper to allow that. )


These XT-IDE/XT-CF cards are supported by a BIOS expansion ROM, loaded with the XTIDE Universal BIOS (a.k.a. XUB). So if you look at all of the XT-IDE/XT-CF cards at [here], you will see an EEPROM on them.

The XUB can support card types other than XT-IDE/XT-CF. And so for those situations, people may host the XUB in the ROM socket of a network card, or say, a card that's only functionality is to provide a ROM socket.
For example, in your 5160 (but not a 5150), you could:
- Host the XUB somewhere; and
- Fit a 16-bit IDE ISA controller (yes, in an 8-bit slot) with 16-bit IDE drive; and
- Configure the XUB for the controller type of: '16-bit ISA IDE in 8-bit mode'.


Yep. The good old days of computers. High failure rate and many incompatibilities/problems. :-)
They kept me employed.
The AST list at [here] serves as a wonderful reminder to us of the times.

I got the ST225 to work (LL Format and what not), BUT after it is on for a while, I am getting a general read error from Drive C. If it is cold, it is okay. I have LL formatted it when it is hot and it is fine and the after a while, a general read error. The PCB where that transistor driver ICs (M53245P) are that gets untouchable hot. I did attempt to oil the shaft of the stepper (which seam to be movable easily). I am guess this old drive is just shot.

I do have an XT-IDE coming, Monday, I think, but it would be cool to have the original, or equivalent hard drive in the system.

I have been able to make and transfer files from modern computer via 720K floppies.

Dave
 
Good, I see that Modem7 has been giving you some good tips. Read everything on his site about the IBM 5160. It will help. You also found Adrian's Digital Basement. Lots of good stuff on old PC's. Also look up Epitronics on YT for more great IBM info.

I do not have a 5160 but I have a 5162. I think you can boot from a 720K 3.5" disk on the 5160 so if you can get that done you'll be in good shape. I have good success using an XT-IDE card with CF cards on my XT class machines. I used these:


I also use MS-DOS 3.3 on the XT machines.

Welcome to VCF Forum

Seaken
Thank you. I have already ordered this one: https://shop.bluelavasystems.com/pr...bm-xt-slot-8-support-1?variant=44200921792766

I also thought this card was pretty cool: https://shop.bluelavasystems.com/pr...-88-mb-boot-rom-serial?variant=42472177533182

I have a NEC V20 ordered (and D8284A that is needed) and a PCB from PCBWay that will allow a turbo mode. (https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/PC_Sprint_Accelerator.html)

I just have to figure out how far to take this 5160XT. My guess it that it will not get used much.

Now I need to find some software to run on it, besides utilities - lol. Do you have suggestions?

Dave
 
The software that I ran on our 5160 was pretty boring business stuff. We used PFS: Write for word processing and R:Base for database management. We also used DacEasy for our General Ledger. After hours was some "Wheel of Fortune" or "Whammy" or some Cribbage or other card games. Maybe it was "House of Cards"? We also had some AST TSR program for Stickey Notes and a calendar but I don't remember what it was called. My FIL used a custom made program for creating and grading his tests. He was a Jr. High School teacher.

I've found a lot of this old software at places like Vetusware or Winworld.

Seaken
 
One of my favorite softwares in those days was PFS: First Choice. It was a suite that included Word Processor, Database, Spreadsheet and Communications and File Management. It worked great on dual floppy systems. I also started my database work on AlphaFour v.2.x. It was a fantastic DOS based DMBS and allowed me to create apps for our business. I still use it's Windows updated version to this day. We run our Hearth Shop business on it. But it all started in DOS back in the days of the XT machines.

Seaken
 
One of my favorite softwares in those days was PFS: First Choice. It was a suite that included Word Processor, Database, Spreadsheet and Communications and File Management. It worked great on dual floppy systems. I also started my database work on AlphaFour v.2.x. It was a fantastic DOS based DMBS and allowed me to create apps for our business. I still use it's Windows updated version to this day. We run our Hearth Shop business on it. But it all started in DOS back in the days of the XT machines.

Seaken

Ahhhh, Alpha 4! That was the database I used in my UT Service shop in Cincinnati in the 1990s. I used to love that software. I moved on to Access in Windows with Office Pro and doing a lot of VBA programming behind forms. I love VBA and VB6. Of course neither of those loves apply to this machine - lol. Under DOS, I used WordStar as my word processor (I was use to it from CPM on my Model 4). My boss used Word Perfect, which I could not stand. I don't really remember using a spread sheet back them, the way I use Excel today (Again with lots of VBA in the back ground). Oh, I had a program in QuickBasic that used to produce Certificates of Calibrations and database them, back in the day. I slightly remember working with a DOS Visual basic back then too. I believe my best main computer towards the end of the 90s in the shop, that I was doing all this on, was an AMD based K6 based machine.

I was looking. Wolfenstein came out in 1991, but I guessing VGA and 286/386 only, no CGA - lol. If you could get that to work on it, I can imagine the lag induced vertigo.

I had found a card game/casino disk, but not very entertaining.

I did find Civilization 1, but doubt it would work on it, again, probably original VGA only.

I don't really play many video games., but was thinking there must have at least been space invaders for it, but so far, I haven't found any.

Lot of 5160 repair videos, not really any using videos. hahah

It is pretty cool that this old thing mostly works. I found a nice 3.5" Drive holder 3D Print design. I modified that design so it doesn't have the flanges on the outside, so that the floppy drive bay can mount from the inside of the 5160, and I am currently printing it in ABS on my Bambu X1C. So I will have the 5.25" on the bottom and the 3.5" (black) floppy drive on top. I did order that 8 bit floppy controller for it, so that 3.5" will be, 1.4MB capable. I don't know if it will drive a 360K 5.25 off the same cable.

Maybe this will help me recover memories that I cannot think of now. It seems I locked away a lot of memories from back then. Some have started coming to the surface already just fooling with this thing.

Dave
 
I also used Wordstar on our NorthStar Advantage running CP/M. I continued to use Wordstar on my DOS machines for years after, even used WordStar for Windows, but it was terrible. Eventually landed on OpenOffice (Star Office) and stayed with that until we switched to LibreOffice which we use to this day.

I did not do a lot of spreadsheet stuff in the early PC days. I adopted QuatroPro and used it for years until I switched to OpenOffice and Excel.

I did switch over to Access for awhile while I was still experimenting with Alpha Five. I eventually moved back to Alpha Five and stayed with it until they went "subscription". I stopped upgrading at version 11 but still use it every day. One day I may even finish my application! :)

The 5160 was a good machine in it's day. But after moving on to other office software like Open Office and Libre Office and Alpha Five I can't say I miss the XT days. But it sure is fun working on the old machines from a hardware perspective.

Seaken
 
The 5160 was a good machine in it's day. But after moving on to other office software like Open Office and Libre Office and Alpha Five I can't say I miss the XT days. But it sure is fun working on the old machines from a hardware perspective.

Seaken

Yes, more fun to work on, and maybe optimize, than actually using - lol And you better have most of the day to see if your repairs and updates have worked. It's not a waste of time, for me, in that this is bringing memories back.
 
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