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Apple IIe x 2 - vertical and horizontal bars showing on display

guardy

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Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
4
Hi all,

I'm looking for some help please. After not using two Apple IIe's I have for a while I finally got some space in the garage and an area to set them up sorted out.
Connected them, turned them on and not one, but both of them have faults. :(

I'm attached photos of what shows up on screen. I removed all addon cards and I get the same image(s) on screen.

One of them is an Apple IIe Platinum and the other is an Apple IIe Enhanced.

Does anyone have any ideas on what I can do to drag them back into the land of the living please?
I did read that removing and re-seating the chips might help and I've done that to a few of the chips though I'm not entirely convinced I'm doing them any favours.

I thought the better course of action initially would be to get some feedback from those who might know more. :)


Many thanks ...

apple iie fault 1.jpgapple iie fault 2.jpg
 
Last edited:

KC9UDX

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I would always suspect the RAM first, and you can swap RAM chips between them one at a time and see if things change. But first, can you get either to do anything when you hold down "Solid Apple" or "Option" when you power on?
 

RWallmow

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I would always suspect the RAM first, and you can swap RAM chips between them one at a time and see if things change. But first, can you get either to do anything when you hold down "Solid Apple" or "Option" when you power on?
Along the same lines, does CTRL-RESET change anything? And do you get the power on beep?

I agree RAM is a pretty likely cause of issues like this though.
 

guardy

New Member
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Apr 20, 2014
Messages
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Thank you both for the suggestions. I will take a look specifically at the ram chips and see if that helps. I have an older apple IIe or maybe a II+ in storage somewhere - might have to get them out and see if they're still operational (or if I can scrounge chips from them).

And no, no power on beep and no keys have an effect on what shows on screen.

I'll report back what I find once I get the chance to look into it more (which is likely to be next weekend at this stage).


Many thanks ... :)
 

ChrisCwmbran

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Cwmbran, Wales, United Kingdom
From my recent Apple IIe motherboard repairs (see reports on my forum) I found that when the bars seem to be formed from graphics rather than characters the problem is more likely to be a failed CPU.

I'm sure the others on here have much more experience than me - but in the case of my IIe Platinum although the screen display was a checkerboard type pattern, it was most definitely graphic based not character based, and turned out to be the 65C02.
 

guardy

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Apr 20, 2014
Messages
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I included screenshots in my original post, though they aren't very obvious.
They are just solid bars - one was vertical, the other was horizontal. I should have made note which was which, thinking about it.

It was frustrating that they had both failed though, I guess that's the downside of a 25-30 year old computer .... :)
 

RWallmow

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I agree with ChrisCwmbran, if CTRL-RESET has no effect and there's no startup beep, its more likely the CPU it bad or isn't resetting on bootup, could be a lot of other things, unfortunately you will likely need a good hardware reference and a logic probe or oscilloscope at this point, or a ton of spare parts to start tossing at them.
 

Maxheap

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Missouri USA
I agree with ChrisCwmbran, if CTRL-RESET has no effect and there's no startup beep, its more likely the CPU it bad or isn't resetting on bootup, could be a lot of other things, unfortunately you will likely need a good hardware reference and a logic probe or oscilloscope at this point, or a ton of spare parts to start tossing at them.

I have this same exact problem with my IIe. I pulled the CPU to test and get the same exact bars as before. Is this a valid test that the CPU is bad?
 

KC9UDX

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No. It's a good indication that the CPU isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing. It could be dead but that's unlikely in my experience. Like RWallmow said, it could be a lot of things and you will need some diagnostic tools and skills. Sans that, I would start by "piggybacking" the RAM chips one at a time and see if there is *any* change. If you are good at soldering, I wouldn't even mess around. I'd remove all the RAM chips, install sockets, and buy all new RAMs. The odds of multiple RAMs being bad are high. This solves most problems in most cases.

If you're lucky, the RAMs are already socketed and replacement is a piece of cake.
 

SomeGuy

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Marietta, GA
What your are seeing is the uninitialized video memory. At boot the system is supposed to clear all of that, among other things. But if something is preventing it from running, you will see something like that.

A good place to start is with a close visual inspection of the motherboard. Look for any scratches, corrosion, or anything that might have broken. Check the expansion slots to see if anything has gotten in to them. Carefully remove and re-seat the chips that are in sockets. Look for any corrosion on the sockets or the legs of the chips.

If inspection and cleaning doesn't help, then it probably is a bad chip.
 

Maxheap

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No. It's a good indication that the CPU isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing. It could be dead but that's unlikely in my experience. Like RWallmow said, it could be a lot of things and you will need some diagnostic tools and skills. Sans that, I would start by "piggybacking" the RAM chips one at a time and see if there is *any* change. If you are good at soldering, I wouldn't even mess around. I'd remove all the RAM chips, install sockets, and buy all new RAMs. The odds of multiple RAMs being bad are high. This solves most problems in most cases.

If you're lucky, the RAMs are already socketed and replacement is a piece of cake.

Should have mentioned that I tried the piggyback and it didn't change anything. Unfortunately the RAM is soldered in. Is there anything basic I can check, there are some socketed IIe chips (I can post pics).
 

guardy

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Apr 20, 2014
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So much for the coming weekend!
It's now about four months since I started this thread and I finally have something to report.

I didn't end up swapping components with any other machines I have. I did re-seat every chip that I could though.
I ended up buying another 6502 chip, it arrived yesterday, swapped it over today and it seems all (well, most) is well. It started first time, have "Apple //e" showing on the display.
Re-connected floppies and could boot successfully. However, it still seems somewhat intermittent. No vertical or horizontal lines on the display though, just nothing.
If it doesn't work, then kill the power, give it a few seconds then it seems to boot okay.

On a side note, my monitor gave a few pops and clicks and the magic smoke appeared. Still seems to work though. We'll see what happens. I guessing a couple of capacitors that'll need replacing?

Anyway, the main point of my post was to let anyone reading know the cpu seems to have been at fault.


Cheers
 

airnocker

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New to this forum.

That's good news. I'm preparing to fire up my two Apple ]['s, one is an original II and the other a IIe. My recollection is that my original II had a four digit serial number less than 2000. Gotta unbox it before I can affirm this. My II was purchased in early '78. Used cassette tape players and cassettes to load programs (also which I still have). Floppy Drives came out about 4-5 months later. I have two original Apple Disks, still have one of the boxes they came. They also worked with no problems around 20 years ago. Have the original red Apple owners manual and the blue Apple floating point basic manual. Last time I fired it up was 20 years ago, ditto for the IIe. Fingers crossed.

Also going to fire up my Apple II Graphics Tablet to blow the cobwebs out.
 

amauget

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Mar 9, 2011
Messages
84
Hello guardy,

If your Apple displays "Apple //e", it's the enhanced model. So it needs a 65C02 in order to work correctly.

The magic smoke is nothing to worry about : just EMI capacitors. A simple fix if you have soldering skills.
See here or here for more informations.
 

KC9UDX

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An "enhanced" //e won't say Apple //e if it doesn't have a 65C02. It won't say anything at all :)
 

airnocker

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Sep 20, 2014
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New to this forum.

That's good news. I'm preparing to fire up my two Apple ]['s, one is an original II and the other a IIe. My recollection is that my original II had a four digit serial number less than 2000. Gotta unbox it before I can affirm this. My II was purchased in early '78. Used cassette tape players and cassettes to load programs (also which I still have). Floppy Drives came out about 4-5 months later. I have two original Apple Disks, still have one of the boxes they came. They also worked with no problems around 20 years ago. Have the original red Apple owners manual and the blue Apple floating point basic manual. Last time I fired it up was 20 years ago, ditto for the IIe. Fingers crossed.

Also going to fire up my Apple II Graphics Tablet to blow the cobwebs out.

Update: I'm ecstatic to report my 1978, S/N A2S1-3465, booted right up to a machine prompt and allowed me to display all memory locations and execute other machine commands. I only had the old Basic/FP Language card in Slot 0 at the time but WOW, what a relief. I think the last time this machine booted up was 1984 or so. It's been sleeping in its original Apple II leather case all this time.

P1040126.jpgP1040130.jpg

Notice my Reset button shield for preventing unwanted "fat-fingered" resets at inopportune times.

Unfortunately my 1983 Apple ][e didn't fair a well in hibernation. It's PSU was dead. No fuse blown, no bloated electrolytics, diodes good, but the -12v supply ohm's out as "open".
 

channelmaniac

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Dallas, TX Metromess
Check the 100k resistors coming off the high voltage side large electrolytic capacitors and if they are good, replace the small electrolytics on the high voltage side and in the feedback circuit area next to the side of the transformer.

I wouldn't worry about the -12v side unless it is shorted to ground.
 

airnocker

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Colorado
Check the 100k resistors coming off the high voltage side large electrolytic capacitors and if they are good, replace the small electrolytics on the high voltage side and in the feedback circuit area next to the side of the transformer.

I wouldn't worry about the -12v side unless it is shorted to ground.

Many thanks channelmaniac. (I just moved from Dallas, a long-time resident there)

Do you mean R2 and R3? which on my PSU are 150K 1/4watt resistors? These are buried close-in to the larger 47uF-250V C5, C6, C24 and C25 electrolytics on the input. Is the smaller one the 220uF-10v C7 nearest the end of the relay by the transformer. One of these four larger caps is one I suspected (marked red on top) as it has a very subtle bulge on top. So these are the ones you are referring to, right?

P1040141-ct.jpg
 

airnocker

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Many thanks channelmaniac. (I just moved from Dallas, a long-time resident there)

Do you mean R2 and R3? which on my PSU are 150K 1/4watt resistors? These are buried close-in to the larger 47uF-250V C5, C6, C24 and C25 electrolytics on the input. Is the smaller one the 220uF-10v C7 nearest the end of the relay by the transformer. One of these four larger caps is one I suspected (marked red on top) as it has a very subtle bulge on top. So these are the ones you are referring to, right?

View attachment 20760


Changing the 220uF-10v (C7) and the four 47uF-250v caps made no difference, PSU still dead. There is no evidence anywhere on the board of overheating or leaking.
 

airnocker

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Sep 20, 2014
Messages
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Location
Colorado
Changed all electrolytic caps on the high voltage side including the 220uF-10v feedback cap. No luck. Removed all the low voltage electrolytic caps in preparation to replace them. Checked them and found a bad 220uF-10V on the 5V supply output. Replaced all the low voltage electrolytic caps and getting ready to test PSU. Fingers crossed.
 
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