A major breakthrough in removing yellowing from old cases!!!

[Lorne]

I've got a couple of new batches going today.
I'm doing one section with PB (the powdered bleach additive), and another one with XG+ (xanthan gum additive plus a little isopropyl alchol).

I didn't use a mixer of any sort because I thought that might get the stuff all over the place. Just like you would if you were making a white sauce for cooking (ie: mix a little water with the flour, so it doesn't all lump up when you add it to the rest of your liquid), I mixed about a 1/2 tsp of the alcohol with the xanthan gum, before I added it to the H2O2/Oxy solution. The XG and the alcohol mixed fine with no lumps, but when I added it to the H2O2 solution, it still lumped up, although not as much as last time. If you keep stirring, the lumps are kept to a minimum.
The PB does make a real nice mixture, with no lumps - kind of like a whipped butter consistency.

Will post photos later today when the experiment is finished.

 

[Merlin]

@ Lorne

That's why I was thinking of a liquidiser, the type with a lid that you use to make fruit smoothies. That would mix it fine and not get it all over the place.

The science bug has really bitten you, hasn't it?

:mrgreen:

 

[Lorne]

@ Lorne

The science bug has really bitten you, hasn't it?

:mrgreen:

Sort of - I enjoy improving or fixing things.
That, and I used to hear "in for a penny, in for a pound" a lot when I was growing up !

 

[Merlin]

Sort of - I enjoy improving or fixing things.
That, and I used to hear "in for a penny, in for a pound" a lot when I was growing up !

You and I are kindred spirits Lorne, that sounded like me talking.....

 

[Lorne]

Here we go: PB vs XG+

Before photo - PB is the mixture with the powdered bleach additive and XG+ is the Xanthan Gum additive with a little isopropyl alcohol:



Solutions applied to both areas. The PB mixture is much thicker - like Cool Whip or whipped butter. It would have a much better chance of staying on vertical surfaces. The XG+ mixture is runnier and gets under the masking tape. The XG+ mixture could probably be made thicker with more XG.



The XG+ solution has pretty well evaporated completely while the PB mixture has evaporated some but is thicker to start with.



Parts washed off.



Parts washed off and tape removed. No real noticeable difference between the actual amount of de-yellowing done.



This was all done in FOUR hours ! That's the quickest yet, and with good results. It could be due to the addition of the alcohol to the XG mixture, and could be due to the addition of the powdered bleach to the original H2O2 solution. In both cases, it was quicker. I think I have a preference for the PB mixture. It doesn't run under the masking tape, which could be useful if you want to mask off a label or sticker, and it should hold to vertical sections, and not just run off.

 

[Druid6900]

You might consider putting some plastic wrap over the paste to reduce losses to evaporation. I'm pretty sure they don't put UV blockers in it

 

[Lorne]

You might consider putting some plastic wrap over the paste to reduce losses to evaporation. I'm pretty sure they don't put UV blockers in it

Good idea - you couldn't completely seal it as there's some bubbles/gas given off, but it would help reduce the evaporation. I'm not sure I'd want to seal and thereby concentrate the gas given off by the H2O2 and bleach version though. Merlin mentioned something previously about mustard gas (or some sort of poisonous gas).
With it now working in four hours, I may not even need to worry about the evaporation.

 

[Lorne]

Here's another piece I processed today using the XG+ mixture.
It's the front panel from an Altos 5/15.

Before:



Half way through with the solution still on it:



Done after four hours.




I should have waited until the first experiment was completed, before processing this piece.

Then I would have known that the PB mixture works better by
1) sticking to the vertical surfaces (it was a pain having to keep recoating the edges)
2) not getting under the masking tape (so the red areas of my Altos decal would still be intact)

Impatience has its price.

 

[carlsson]

I acquired a cheese yellow Atari 800XL the other week. Unfortunately I'd need to invest in a UV lamp to take part of this bleach process. I suppose the recent experiments would work just as well with a lamp as with real sunlight?

 

[Lorne]

I acquired a cheese yellow Atari 800XL the other week. Unfortunately I'd need to invest in a UV lamp to take part of this bleach process. I suppose the recent experiments would work just as well with a lamp as with real sunlight?

Merlin's guys over at the English Amiga forum have used a UV bulb - he can comment on their results.

I have ample sunlight here, so am doing the 'green' thing by not using electricity (no comments on what the gases generated, might be doing to the environment please).

 

[Merlin]

@ Lorne

Nice work!! Can you confirm that the powdered bleach is chlorine free? I hope that it is, otherwise that idea could produce problems with making the plastic brittle.

I'll try and nail down what they add to the powdered bleach to make a stable foam; off the top of my head I suspect is something like sodium xylene sulphonate, which is what they add to toothpaste to make it foam.

@ Carlsson

Get an energy-saving UV bulb, then stop worrying about the planet because you are doing your bit as you are recycling :mrgreen:. You can get energy saving ones, Maplin's stock them in the UK. The treatment time should be about the same. You need the UV light to break the bond between the oxygen and the bromine molecules. Tonyyeb has had great results with an energy saving UV lamp over here in Blighty and he's up North, where it's supposed to be grim, LOL.

In Manchester, where I live, I don't have a choice as it usually rains, it's not called the Rainy City for nothing, we know what season it is by the rain getting warmer and colder....there was a big yellow thing in the sky once, but I don't know what it was....:mrgreen:

Edit: it appears that the usual foam boosters added to hair formulations are chemicals like Cocamide DEA and Sodium lauryl ether sulphate. These won't be available to the average Joe. Leave it with me for a few days and I'll see what I can come up with based on stuff you can lay hands on. For example, egg whites can give a stable foam, as that's how meringue is made; the foam relies on the protein in the egg white.

I'm sure I can crack this foaming issue. Saponin could be a good choice as it's natural; it's what causes foam in the pan when you boil vegetables like potatoes or beets. I'm on the case.

 

[Lorne]

@ Lorne

Nice work!! Can you confirm that the powdered bleach is chlorine free? I hope that it is, otherwise that idea could produce problems with making the plastic brittle.

I called Friday and asked for a MSDS on the powdered bleach (they didn't have one on their website). They're supposed to mail me one. Once I get it, I'll scan it and PM it to you.

So, not only am I not using electricity, I'm recycling as well - I like it - aren't I a good citizen?

I don't think you need to worry about the average Joe getting the hair bleach stuff - it's readily available online (and cheaper than at the hairdressers).

Wouldn't more XG make the mixture thicker, and stickier so that it would stick to the vertical surfaces?
Per the hairdresser's instructions, I'm mixing two parts H2O2 solution to one part powdered bleach.
That's vs 1/2 pint of H2O2 solution with 1/2 tsp of XG !

 

[Merlin]

You are right, adding more XG will make it thicker; I didn't want to overdo it first time around and end up with something that you have to cut into slices to use, LOL. Also, if it's thicker, it won't creep under the masking tape so much.

Edit: I've found out some info on the powdered bleach product, it's pretty generic. It will contain some source of a peroxide donor, such as perborates or persulphates, there will be an amine or ammonia present and a thickener such as an alginate, xanthan gum or hydroxy ethyl cellulose. Basically, it's like the Oxy laundry booster but with a thickener added to it to stabilise the foam.

I reckon if you add some more xanthan gum to the original brew and add some more Oxy, you won't be far off what the powdered bleach product is doing. Remember, our original brew foams up if you add too much Oxy, so that and the xanthan gum being increased should sort it. I don't want to mess too much with the formula as it works, it just needs tweaking a bit.

 

[Lorne]

Basically, it's like the Oxy laundry booster but with a thickener added to it to stabilise the foam.

So if I'm using the powdered bleach, I don't need to add the Oxy? Just H2O2 and powdered bleach, right?

If so, haven't we just eliminated a couple of steps? (IE: no need to add Oxy or xanthan gum, if I'm using the powdered bleach mixture)

 

[Merlin]

From the tests you have done, I would say yes, but we don't know for certain what's in the version you used. It may have ammonia in it somewhere, but with out more information I am working blind. The Oxy has the TAED which is a di-amine, so the principle is sort of the same.

Personally, I would prefer to keep with known ingredients as much as possible, but if the powdered bleach works for you, that's great.

Do you have a brand name, or anything else we can go on to find out more information on it?

 

[Lorne]

Do you have a brand name, or anything else we can go on to find out more information on it?

It's called "Redken Blonde Dimensions dust-free conditioning lightener".
I can't find a MSDS for it online, but I have requested one by phone and email.
Once I get it, we'll know what's in the stuff.

 

[Merlin]

Aha!!

Dust free gives the game away; it's definitely one of the persulphate / percarbonate /perborate peroxide donor types, with some ammonia and thickener like HEC or XG present. There are some patents knocking around about these, I read up on them before my post last night.

The term dust-free means that they have ground it to an average size of 20 mesh, that's all.

I've got some HEC and XG at home now, so I can start to experiment. I've also got some neat TAED and 35% H2O2 as well, so I can see what the effect of no detergents from the Oxy has on the mixture and foaming.

Lorne mate, this thread is nearly 200 posts long; do you think we should start a part 2 thread, or just keep plugging away in here? I don't mind drawing up "The Story So Far" to intro a new part 2 thread.

 

[Lorne]

Aha!!
Lorne mate, this thread is nearly 200 posts long; do you think we should start a part 2 thread, or just keep plugging away in here? I don't mind drawing up "The Story So Far" to intro a new part 2 thread.

It's 20 PAGES long. This reply will probably make it onto the 21st page.

I was thinking exactly the same thing yesterday (when I was looking at the length of other threads), and I was going to suggest that seeing as you started it (that'll teach you ), that maybe you start a new thread summarizing what we've learned to date.

Anyone new starting on this thread would probably never make it to the end, to see all the good stuff that we've figured out.

That's another good idea Merlin ! (you're full of them)

 

[Lorne]

OK - I just received my order of Blonde Dimensions powdered bleach.
There's a little more than powdered bleach in it.

From the label on the tub:

Ingredients: potassium persulfate, sodium silicate, sodium persulfate, ammonium chloride, aluminum distearate, sodium metasilicate, hydroxypropyl, methylcellulose, ppg-2-ceteareth-9, ptfe, hydroxethylcellulose, ammonium sulfate, parfum/fragrance, silica, polyquaternium-22, edta, poloxamer 182, sodium lauroyl sarcosinate, benzyl benzoate, hexyl cinnamal, benzyl salicylate, linalool, limonene, geraniol (D7343/2).


If you ever want to give someone a typing test, give them a label off some hairdresser's bleach, and tell them to type it. Wow - trying to type words you've never typed before, let alone never read before, is not easy.

It's time for a Bass.

Merlin:
You were right on the persulfate - it's in there twice.
Now, can you translate for us?
Is it safe?

 

[Merlin]

OK, let's see what we can figure out from the label....there's a lot of double-talk on there to confuse people and try to hide what's in it, however, it can be worked out.

Ingredients:

potassium persulfate (peroxide donor)
sodium silicate (anti-caking agent)
sodium persulfate (peroxide donor)
ammonium chloride (ammonia source)
aluminum distearate (anti-caking agent)
sodium metasilicate (alkaline detergent)
hydroxypropyl, methylcellulose (HPMC - thickener)
ppg-2-ceteareth-9 (ethylene oxide/polypropylene glycol/ceto stearyl alcohol ester surfactant - makes hair silky / detangling agent)
ptfe (teflon - to make hair feel silky / detangling agent)
hydroxethylcellulose (HEC - thickener)
ammonium sulfate (ammonia source)
parfum/fragrance (scent to make it smell nice)
silica (possibly an anti-caking agent)
polyquaternium-22 (Dimethyldiallylammonium chloride acrylic acid polymer - anti-static agent)
edta (catalyst - similar to TAED)
poloxamer 182 (ethylene oxide / propylene oxide copolymer - wetting agent)
sodium lauroyl sarcosinate (surfactant - to help it wet out on the hair)
benzyl benzoate (stabilising agent)
hexyl cinnamal (hexyl cinnamaldehyde - cinnamon type scent)
benzyl salicylate (solvent to dissolve the scents in the mix)
linalool (terpene alcohol - cinnamon type scent)
limonene (lemon terpene - scent and solvent)
geraniol (rose-type scent).

You really don't want to take me shopping, I could scare you silly by translating labels. That's a lot less ingredients than are in the Oxy, not... LOL.

That's some witches brew you have there, Lorne; I would say it's safe to use, as apart from the scents and other oddball crap in there, it's still like Oxy under the hood (bonnet to us Brits). Does your Osborne smell nice afterwards?

I will draft the header for the new thread this weekend and post a new Part 2 thread then.