IBM Model M on a 5150

[Great Hierophant]

I heard that the Enhanced 101-Key IBM Model M Keyboard will work with an IBM PC or an XT. As we all should know, the XT actually has BIOS support for the 101, so its extra keys should be supported without difficulty.

But what about the PC, the old 5150 which never had BIOS updates to support the new keyboard. I read somewhere that the Model M can autodetect which type of system it is connected to and adjust the scan codes it sends accordingly. I would suspect that the keys common to the 83-key keyboard and the 101 key keyboard would work exactly the same.

But what about the following

Alt & Ctrl - On the 83, these keys are on the left side of the keyboard. Therefore, the 101 left Alt and Ctrl should correspond. The right Alt and Ctrl may not register at all.

Enter, / (Numeric Keypad) - No unique 83 key may not register at all.

F11, F12 - Shouldn't register, Sys Req and Pause shouldn't work either.

Insert, Delete, Home, End, Page Up, Page Down, Up, Down, Left, Right - No unique 83 keys, may not register at all. The 101 still has a numeric keyboard with the keys and should work the same.

Break, Prn Sc - These keys are weird because they are different on the 101 from the 83/84. On the 83, the Break is on the same key as the Scroll Lock, the Prn Sc is on the same key as the numeric keypad *. Would they work at all?

I would really appreciate anyone giving their experience with a Model M on a PC or an XT/Portable with the 1982 BIOSes.

 

[mbbrutman]

Search back in the forum. This has been covered before.

(Hint - F11 and F12 don't register because the BIOS doesn't know what to do with the scan codes, but they could be enabled by a device driver that hooks the interrupt. And the duplicated keys should show up with new unsupported scan codes, but they work because the keyboard sends the expected scan codes for those keys, not the new ones.)

 

[Great Hierophant]

So it has:

http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=8986&highlight=model+keyboard

I had forgotten about the earlier post, and I am happy that they do seem to work in some degree and can't wait to test it out with my 139401 with a true 5-pin cable.

 

[Great Hierophant]

I just tried mine, but I got a 301 error code and when I actually hit the keys, they came out quite different than I expected. I am using DOS 2.0 by the way, maybe I need to use something more advanced?

My Model M is the 1391401 with a 5-pin cable attached, and it was manufactured in February 1989. It should work!

 

[dongfeng]

A Model M works perfectly on my 5150 in PC-DOS 3.2.

However, with a British keyboard layout I need to load a driver for the keys to be correct.

KEYBUK.COM /E

the KEYBUK.COM is the driver, the /E switch is for the 'enhanced' keyboard.

 

[Great Hierophant]

Perhaps the cable is bad, I will try it with the PS/2 cable with an adapter on Monday.

 

[Chuck(G)]

Perhaps the cable is bad, I will try it with the PS/2 cable with an adapter on Monday.

As noted in the old thread, it may also depend on the manufacture date of your Model M. Early ones seem to work; later ones do not.

 

[Great Hierophant]

Dongfeng's 1992 Model M works with the XT, and mine was made earlier. On the other hand, his is a UK model and mine is a US model.

 

[Great Hierophant]

Okay, using either the cable with the AT connector or the PS/2 connector still gives the wrong characters or garbage. The keyboard works perfectly well in modern systems, so what could be the problem?

 

[mbbrutman]

As far as I know, the ability for a Model M to work on the older 5150 interface is not documented and not supported. So if your particular keyboard doesn't work, you are out of luck. Find another one to try.

There is a Model M specifically designed for the PC XT which should also work on the 5150. That Model M (1390120) has no indicator lights, which can not be driven by the 5150 or 5160 anyway. That one will work on your 5150 or 5160 - anything else is good fortune.

 

[dongfeng]

There is a Model M specifically designed for the PC XT which should also work on the 5150. That Model M (1390120) has no indicator lights, which can not be driven by the 5150 or 5160 anyway. That one will work on your 5150 or 5160 - anything else is good fortune.

Like mine:mrgreen:

Safe bet that any "silver logo" keyboards will work, the 1986 keyboard from my AT works on my XT.

 

[Jorg]

wow. how does that get so clean? (looks down at the 1992 Model M typing on..)

 

[dongfeng]

It's all down to the power of Cif! :D

(and about 4 hours) :lol:

 

[Great Hierophant]

I have received and tested two older IBM Model Ms, one with LEDs dated July 3, 1986 and one without dated November 21, 1989. Both give 301 errors on bootup and give garbage responses to keypresses. My 83-key keyboard works fine in this system, which is using the 10/27/82 BIOS. These keyboards should work fine in ATs and XTs with the second or third BIOS, but I don't believe any Model M will work in a 5150 with an unmodified BIOS.

 

[mbbrutman]

I have posted several times already that there are Model Ms that work on unmodified 5150s, 5160s, and even on a PCjr with a PC-to-PCjr adapter. None of my machines have special modifications.

The fact that you are unlucky is unfortunate.

 

[Great Hierophant]

I have posted several times already that there are Model Ms that work on unmodified 5150s, 5160s, and even on a PCjr with a PC-to-PCjr adapter. None of my machines have special modifications.

The fact that you are unlucky is unfortunate.

I had thought that my LED-less Model M was too late and IBM had used the incompatible chip, having eliminated the PC line entirely at that point. I suppose I should be on the lookout for a LED-less Model M with a very early manufacturing date.

There was a mistake in my original post, my LED-less Model M was manufactured in 1989. I think the board may be too late.

 

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm having a similar problem with the LEDless Model M with my XT clone motherboard. It gives an error during boot, and spits up a bunch of jibberish...

...but if I reseat the cable a couple of times I can actually get it working (but this is really annoying). It almost seems like it is having a problem switching between AT and XT modes. The keyboard works just fine in my late model 5160.

I'll have to try it out with my 5150 later to see what happens. I'm not sure what the date of the keyboard is, but I believe it's a 1986 model.

 

[Great Hierophant]

While I dislike to ressurect old posts, I have some weird results to report. I recently acquired a Tandy 1000 TL and have come to dislike the Tandy Enhanced Keyboard that I purchased for it. On a whim, I tried my LED-less 1390120 from 1989 with it, fearing it would not work because it did not work in the IBM PC and both keyboards expect an XT protocol, not an AT protocol. To my shock, it soon began to work! I also tried my 1390131 LED Model M and it also worked, minus the LEDs. It seems that these keyboards will probably work in a 1986-era XT but not on something made before then or my 5150 has something going on with it. Otherwise, it may just be one of those Tandy things.

Also, the first or second keystroke may not work correctly, but the rest will, including the numberpad. One caveat is that the Num Lock key must be off in order for the separate Insert and Delete keys will work. All other keys work correctly, but I have not been able to test F11, F12, Print Screen/Sys Req, Scroll Lock or Pause/Break.

 

[Great Hierophant]

More interesting news:

Today my IBM PC/XT Motherboard came in the mail today. It has the 3rd BIOS (05/09/86). I connected the LED-less 1390120 from 1989 with it and it worked perfectly. No gibberish on the first key press, and the non 83-key keys worked just fine in such software as Digger and Jungle Hunt. I guess the problem with 5150s is probably electrically related as opposed to the functionality of the keyboard controller chip.