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New XT! Question about HDD...

m1k3e

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Joined
Jul 16, 2009
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Location
New York, NY
Finally got around to registering for this site! Just bought an XT off of eBay with an IBM 5151 monitor and it arrived today :D. I'm glad to say that everything works well so far, I had a SixPakPlus lying around so I threw it in just for the RTC (computer has full 640 KB of RAM) and LapLink 3 has been working well to transfer things to and from. Just had a quick question for you experts. The hard drive is a Seagate ST-225. Should I be parking the hard drive? I've been looking around on the hard drive for a park utility, and I can't find one... Also, what version of DOS do you guys recommend for this thing? It has PC DOS 3.10 on it right now. Thanks in advance!
 
The DOS sounds about right for the vintage.

Parking these old hard drives is always a good idea. Back in the day I used a utility called "park.com". I'm sure it will be sitting around in some internet archive somewhere.

Tez
 
The DOS sounds about right for the vintage.

Parking these old hard drives is always a good idea. Back in the day I used a utility called "park.com". I'm sure it will be sitting around in some internet archive somewhere.

Tez

Ahhh... I gotta start searching. There's only one problem I'm having, sometimes I need to restart the computer multiple times before the hard drive boots. Occasionally I'll get a "Divide overflow" error and then reboot it again and it'll work. Think that might have something to do with it?
 
Ahhh... I gotta start searching.
The one I use is at http://members.dodo.com.au/~slappanel555/software/PARK.zip

There's only one problem I'm having, sometimes I need to restart the computer multiple times before the hard drive boots. Occasionally I'll get a "Divide overflow" error and then reboot it again and it'll work.
Your first post suggests that you are not a novice in regard to old computers. Have you tried low-level formatting the drive (to lay new tracks)?
 
The one I use is at http://members.dodo.com.au/~slappanel555/software/PARK.zip


Your first post suggests that you are not a novice in regard to old computers. Have you tried low-level formatting the drive (to lay new tracks)?

I'm not a novice when it comes to computers, but that said I haven't used an XT since I was 8 years old. My parents threw it out on me, so after all these years I finally decided to stop using DOSBox and go for the real thing :). I'm going to try the low level fomat tonight. Should I format through DEBUG or is there an IBM utility? I read a post that said there was one on an "Advanced diagnostic disk" but unfortunally I have none of the IBM disks that came with the computer.

By the way, I found a park utility with SpinRite II that seems to be doing the trick. Ty for the link though, another certainly doesn't hurt.

Thanks for all the help so far, glad to see there is a spot on the net for other old computer fanatics :).
 
+1 on low level formatting the drive. And I'll explain why...

These old MFM drives are stepper positioned, like a floppy drive. The heads are attached to a stepper motor, and for each pulse, move foreward/backward a track. This is a very simple, pretty reliable method of positioning the heads over a givin track.

Over time, the stepper motor 'wears' a bit, or rather, drifts out of adjustment the tiniest bit. Eventually, this translates to the head being slightly mispositioned over the data tracks of the disk, so it no longer lines up perfectly with the tracks themselves. It'll still work, but it might be slow, or throw up errors. Occasionally, you'll find a drive that works perfeclty if layed flat, but gives errors if you put it up on end, as the 'slop' in the stepper is being exacerbated by the gravity.

Low level formatting a disk involves stepping forward, one track at a time, and writing out all the track boundary information. It'll write the tracks in the positions that the heads now travel to, and it'll work fine.

Now, modern, voice coil positioned hard drives don't have this problem. Rather than relying on a stepper for positioning (step forward 40 tracks.... I'm here! I hope...), they use a set of positioning tracks on the media itself - the head gets pulsed to move forward, and it stops when it gets over the proper track. This is much, much faster, and more reliable from a data integrity point of view - as the heads are always going to be in the right place, since they use information on the media itself to position themselves. But, the other side to this is that voice coil drives can't be low level formatted in the traditional sense. They can't rewrite their position information themselves, because, well, how would they position themselves to the next track, if the positioning information is gone?

All technical discussions aside, I would recommend low level formatting the disk. This is a destructive process, and will erase all data on the drive. A low level format is NOT a DOS format - after low level formatting the drive, you'll need to create a partition table, DOS partition, and format the drive from DOS again.

That said, there is a tool that can low level format the drive right out from under the data. It's called Spinrite. Spinrite II is the best version to use for your XT. I still recommend backing up anything important, but Spinrite actually does work quite well. I've yet to have it lose any data. It can also compute the best interleave ratio for the drive, and format it accordingly.

-Ian
 
Okay, so a little update. Low level format is underway! I tried SpinRite II, but the drive still had the same problems. I wanted to use DEBUG.COM to low level format the drive, but for some strange reason the program wasn't in my C:\DOS directory. Since I don't have any of the DOS 3.10 disks, I was screwed. I managed to use Laplink to dump a PC DOS 5.00 image on the hard drive that had DEBUG.COM on it and used that to low level the drive. I just started it a few minutes ago, I'm guessing this is going to take a while. :) I attached an image of what's going on now.

Anyways, after this completes and I create the partitions and whatnot, should I still run SpinRite again?
 

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I'm not a novice when it comes to computers, but that said I haven't used an XT since I was 8 years old. My parents threw it out on me, so after all these years I finally decided to stop using DOSBox and go for the real thing :).

Do you have an MDA or Hercules card in the XT? If you're interested in playing games (as your use of DOSBox would suggest), you aren't going to do much with an MDA aside from Infocom adventures and Pac-Girl.
 
Do you have an MDA or Hercules card in the XT? If you're interested in playing games (as your use of DOSBox would suggest), you aren't going to do much with an MDA aside from Infocom adventures and Pac-Girl.

I know… I'm not sure what the video card is, I'll post a picture of it later. Anyways, I bought an original IBM CGA adaptor pulled from another 5160… Works like a charm, only problem is I don't have a CGA monitor. Composite is nice, but most games look a little odd… I attached some pictures of the CGA card and Alley Cat running on my TV :). For now I'm sticking with the 5151 'til I can get my hands on a 5153 that works (I just bought one for $100 and it was brutalized during shipping).
 

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I know… I'm not sure what the video card is, I'll post a picture of it later.

This is an MDA card:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KL_MDA_Unknown.jpg

This is a Hercules:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KL_Hercules_HGC.png

Of course, there are also many clone monochrome cards around, most of which are Hercules compatible.

Anyways, I bought an original IBM CGA adaptor pulled from another 5160… Works like a charm, only problem is I don't have a CGA monitor. Composite is nice, but most games look a little odd… I attached some pictures of the CGA card and Alley Cat running on my TV :). For now I'm sticking with the 5151 'til I can get my hands on a 5153 that works (I just bought one for $100 and it was brutalized during shipping).

I use the composite output on my 5150 because I have no RGB monitor either. The color artifacting will seem a bit strange to those who are used to CGA graphics on a RGB monitor. Also with a color composite display, 80-column text is so fuzzy as to be almost unusable. Finally, color 6 is dark yellow and not brown as it is on RGB monitors.

Some games look better with the composite output than others. Alley Cat's graphics are mostly 160x200 resolution, so it's not that different than on a RGB monitor.
 
m1k3e, not sure where you're located, but if it's anywhere near minneapolis, I have a spare 5153 that I'm not needing. I just don't want to ship it anywhere.

Also, if you're not interested in keeping your machine vintage, we're steadily working on an IDE controller for XT's which will allow you to use modern IDE (PATA) hard drives on it. Think of all the games you could put on an 8G hard drive you pick up off craigslist for free. ;)

Details here:
http://wiki.vintage-computer.com/index.php?title=XTIDE_project
 
For now I'm sticking with the 5151 'til I can get my hands on a 5153 that works (I just bought one for $100 and it was brutalized during shipping).
Aww, there goes another one.

I bougth an XT (early 1983 model with an 5153), paid closer to $500 for shipping it, and the 5153 ended up trashed (broken CRT-neck, broken PCBs).

I used to have a MGA card (ATI Small Wonder Graphics Solution Version 2, the second version of ATI's first mid-end graphics card) in my other XT (spring 1985 model with an 5151), and I can display about everything pre-EGA on my 5151 with it, of course in greyscale. I took it out because I decided I wanted to make that XT an IBM-Only sample, now I have both a geniue MDA (Nordic font) and a geniue CGA (American font) in it, however, I only use the MDA because of my lack of a 5153. See my demonstration (Part 1, Part 2) about how MGA looks like.

I also got an early hybrid EGA/VGA card from ATI, but without the digital-to-analog converter so I can't use it with an VGA monitor, and it's functionality equals the functionality of an ATI EGA-Wonder 800+ with auto-detect on monitor type (instead of DIP-Switches). I keep it just in cause everything else fails.
 
m1k3e, not sure where you're located, but if it's anywhere near minneapolis, I have a spare 5153 that I'm not needing. I just don't want to ship it anywhere.

Also, if you're not interested in keeping your machine vintage, we're steadily working on an IDE controller for XT's which will allow you to use modern IDE (PATA) hard drives on it. Think of all the games you could put on an 8G hard drive you pick up off craigslist for free. ;)

Details here:
http://wiki.vintage-computer.com/index.php?title=XTIDE_project

Ah I'm not even close, I'm in NYC :(. IDE controller sounds awesome though, since I don't know how long this ST-225 is going to last me… How's it coming along?
 
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