My Latest Buy (5160)

[antiquekid3]

I still have to get me a keyboard. I think Raven might be able to get me hooked with an XT keyboard soon. However, for the time being, I'd love to be able to write a program for my Arduino to emulate an XT keyboard.

I do have a cable that will connect my 3.5" drive to the floppy, but I don't have a power lead adapter. I presume DigiKey has the parts to make my own. If they do, I'll tag the parts onto my next order.

When it gives me the disk error, it wants me to press F1 to continue. Would it normally go to BASIC right after that?

Kyle

 

[antiquekid3]

Does the access light of the hard drive come on at all?

Do hear hear/feel the platters in the drive turning?

Access light has not lit up for me yet. However, I can feel and hear the platters a little bit. But with the noisy fan from the PSU, it's pretty hard to hear!

Kyle

 

[modem7]

Access light has not lit up for me yet. However, I can feel and hear the platters a little bit. But with the noisy fan from the PSU, it's pretty hard to hear!

We ask because 'stiction' is a common problem in old drives. Do a search of these forums for 'stiction'. It would be good to eliminate that as a cause early up. Your "I can feel and hear the platters a little bit" doesn't sound like you're convinced. You could try removing the drive from the chassis and holding it in your hands. If the platters are spinning, the drive will resist being moved out-of-plane (just the the spinning wheels on a bicycle).

According to http://www.redhill.net.au/d/d-a.html, "The ST-251 made a unique hollow knocking noise on start-up, once heard never forgotten, and by far the most distinctive sound of any drive yet made." Are you hearing that?

 

[antiquekid3]

Okay, I can say with absolute certainty that the ST-251 is spinning. But it still won't boot up. It does make a knocking sound at startup. The light still won't come on.

Kyle

 

[Chuckster_in_Jax]

You may have to try a low-level format of the drive. If the drive is bad, I wouldn't recommend replacing it with another MFM drive. The XT-IDE project was in response to the problem of failing MFM drives. Consider one of those boards if you determine the drive can't be salvaged.

Chuck

 

[antiquekid3]

How do I low level format a drive? I presume I will need to boot into DOS to do this?

I'm going to try to connect my 3.5" drive tonight. Will the floppy controller work with it just fine?

Thanks for the tips!

Kyle

 

[linuxlove]

To low-level format a drive, you'll need:

* MS-DOS bootdisk with DEBUG
* Knowledge of where the low-level formatter is on the hard drive's controller so you can call it using DEBUG.

Post your hard drive controller model, someone should be able to help.

 

[antiquekid3]

Okay, I'm about to try and make a boot disk. I found some online instructions...hopefully they are right!

I have a Seagate hard drive controller. It has a Seagate ST-10 BIOS in it, version 005 2.4. Any more info needed?

Kyle

 

[modem7]

Seagate ST-10 low-level format process:

1. Boot from boot diskette.
2. Run DEBUG
3. Enter G=C800:5
4. Enter 1
5. Enter Y
6. Enter 3 (selects ST251)
7. Enter Y
8. Enter 3
9. Enter N (split question)
10. Enter N
11. Enter Y
12. Enter Y
13. Enter F

After that, you FDISK and FORMAT per usual.

 

[modem7]

Having just experimented with my ST-10 (with BIOS version 2.4), I'm expecting that what you presently see on screen is:
ST10 v2.4
Hard Disk 1: ST-251-1

I used an ST-225 instead of an ST-251, but the expectation is similar.

The "ST-251-1" gets retrieved by the ST-10 from a track on the drive that it reserved for itself.
So that means that:
1. The ST-10 is communicating with the ST-251 okay.
2. The ST-251 has been low-level formatted by the ST-10.

Good though to go through the low-level process (followed by FDISK and FORMAT) again just to ensure that it all has been done properly.

 

[antiquekid3]

Thanks for the low level info, modem! I'm about to see about writing an Arduino program to emulate a keyboard so I can get some work done tonight.

Instead of printing "ST-251-1", it just prints "ST-251." But I assume that is just fine.

Kyle

 

[modem7]

Per what Chuck wrote, if you connect a 1.44M drive to the combination of an IBM 5160 motherboard (even the first release) with original floppy controller, that combination will boot/read a 720K diskette.

To create a 720K sized boot diskette (with DEBUG/FDISK/FORMAT on it) using a 1.44M diskette with tape over the density hole, you can use the STEP 2 part of the process at http://members.dodo.com.au/~slappanel555/5170_gsetup.htm

Instead of printing "ST-251-1", it just prints "ST-251." But I assume that is just fine.

Yes. I used "ST-251-1" because of your earlier, "After that, it tells me there is an ST-251 HDD (more specifically, an ST-251-1)."

 

[per]

Per what Chuck wrote, if you connect a 1.44M drive to the combination of an IBM 5160 motherboard (even the first release) with original floppy controller, that combination will boot/read a 720K diskette.

Well, I have personally done some investigation at this, and what I found was that:

• You can use a 3.5" DD (720KB) disk drive with the original IBM DD FDC and XT motherboard (first BIOS)
• You can use a 3.5" HD (1440KB) disk drive with a one-chip* HD FDC and original IBM XT motherboard (first BIOS)
• You can not use a 3.5" HD (1440KB) disk drive with the original IBM DD FDC

In the two first cases, DOS will see and use all 720KB of the disks, but several other programs will see the disks as only 360KB. I don't find this a problem since I usually use DOS when working with files.

* I haven't tested with anything else than a one-chip HD FDC (GoldStar GM82C765B). I believe all standarized HD FDCs will work as well.

 

[modem7]

You can not use a 3.5" HD (1440KB) disk drive with the original IBM DD FDC

When you use the word, "use", I'm sure that you mean at least the ability to read and write.

My statement stands. If you connect a 1.44M drive to the combination of an IBM 5160 motherboard (even the first release/BIOS) with original IBM DD floppy controller, that combination will boot/read a 720K diskette. Note that I did not use the word, "write". For what we're doing here, which is to boot from a pseudo 720K diskette then execute programs on that diskette such DEBUG/FDISK/FORMAT against the C: drive, no writes to the diskette are required.

 

[per]

When you use the word, "use", I'm sure that you mean at least the ability to read and write.

My statement stands. If you connect a 1.44M drive to the combination of an IBM 5160 motherboard (even the first release/BIOS) with original IBM DD floppy controller, that combination will boot/read a 720K diskette. Note that I did not use the word, "write". For what we're doing here, which is to boot from a pseudo 720K diskette then execute programs on that diskette such DEBUG/FDISK/FORMAT against the C: drive, no writes to the diskette are required.

As of I remember, the HD drive didn't even read on the IBM controller.

Anyways, it may be drive independent. More testing will need to be done in order to say anything for sure.

 

[Chuck(G)]

My statement stands. If you connect a 1.44M drive to the combination of an IBM 5160 motherboard (even the first release/BIOS) with original IBM DD floppy controller, that combination will boot/read a 720K diskette. Note that I did not use the word, "write". For what we're doing here, which is to boot from a pseudo 720K diskette then execute programs on that diskette such DEBUG/FDISK/FORMAT against the C: drive, no writes to the diskette are required.

And I'll stand with you. I've booted up an original 64K 5150 (with the early BIOS) using a 1.44MB 3.5" and just booted up an XT clone the same way. It works.

 

[antiquekid3]

Hey guys,

Here's an update: I tried making a 720K boot disk, and my floppy drive wouldn't format it to 720K. Nor would it take a floppy that had the hole covered. :-(

Also, I suppose it would help if I told ya'll just what this computer IS doing. After checking RAM, here's what the monitor reads:
"
301
640 KB OK

ST10 v2.4
Hard Disc 1: ST251

ERROR. (RESUME = "F1" KEY)
_
"

The 301 error means the keyboard didn't respond. No duh, I don't have a keyboard connected (and I haven't figured out my Arduino keyboard emulator just yet...drats!). Also, several times upon startup, the computer gave a "601" right before the ERROR line. That means something is messed up with the floppy drive. However, it doesn't always do that. I pulled out the cards and put them back in, and it seems to be working better now.

Any suggestions?

Kyle

 

[antiquekid3]

Okay, I just tried connecting some random new Dell PS/2 keyboard. It does something DIFFERENT!! Yay!

Firstly, no 301 error. Secondly, it now goes to this screen:
"
C>DATE
Current date is Tue 01-01-1980
Enter new date (mm-dd-yy): _
"

I guess I went back in time...!

This must mean my system works, but it just needs a keyboard! Unfortunately, the keyboard I'm using won't type. But at least it tricks it into thinking a real keyboard is connected!

Kyle

 

[modem7]

This must mean my system works, but it just needs a keyboard!

Yes. That's good news. There might be some nice old software on the hard drive.

Here's an update: I tried making a 720K boot disk, and my floppy drive wouldn't format it to 720K
Nor would it take a floppy that had the hole covered.

Now that you know that an XT keyboard will get your machine going (very high probability), you no longer have a need for a 720K sized boot diskette, because once your machine is booting from C:, you'll be able to create a 5.25" boot diskette.

If you want to pursue the creation of a 720K boot disk, you'll need to inform us of the technique/sequence you used, and the error messages (or symptoms).

That means something is messed up with the floppy drive. However, it doesn't always do that. I pulled out the cards and put them back in, and it seems to be working better now.

Note that something that's common with 5.25" drives is that the lubrication on the slide/carriage rails has deteriorated.