Oh my word!

[RWIndiana]

Sorry guys, I'm new here! I just stumbled across this forum while looking for old PC/XT games and somehow landed on the XTIDE wiki page. I was floored!! I have a sIDE 1/16 board but it is very particular about not allowing any other hard drive controllers in the system. I was wondering, will the XTIDE project allow for a MFM controller and hard drive to be the primary drive? How do I get ahold of one of these? I don't have the means at this point to build one myself. Can I be put on a list to purchase one or three???

I'm really trying to hold back my excitement here! I've been looking for quite some time for some way to transfer data from my old Leading Edge Model D (8088 XT clone) with a MFM drive. I thought I could use sIDE 1/16 to connect a CF card to back it up, but sIDE 1/16 will not allow the MFM card to work at all. Anyway, enough of that. Gotta get this posted if I expect to get any response right? Thanks!

 

[modem7]

Welcome to these forums.

If your goal is to transfer data from your 8088 PC (presumably to a 'modern' PC), be aware that there are other options. Some are:

1. ZIP100:

Connect a parallel ZIP100 (model ZIP100P2) to the parallel port of your 8088 PC, and use the associated PALMZIP driver software (runs on an 8088 CPU). ZIP100P2 drives can be found on eBay. The PALMZIP software can be purchased very cheaply from http://leute.server.de/peichl/palmzipe.htm

2. 1.44MB diskette:

Certain diskette controller cards support 1.44MB drives, work in 8088 PCs, and require no driver software. Example pictured at http://members.dodo.com.au/~slappanel555/images2/unique_fdc.jpg

3. 1.44MB diskette:

A diskette drive that connects to the parallel port of the 8088 PC. The MicroSolutions Backpack 1.44MB unit (model 014350) is an example. Pictured at http://members.dodo.com.au/~slappanel555/images2/external_drives.jpg


Where are located (country/city)? Someone on these forums may be local to you, and prepared to assist you directly.

 

[MikeS]

... and direct-connect transfers via serial or parallel ports or ethernet...

 

[glitch]

Aha! Someone else with a Model D!

Be advised that the Model D isn't particularly thrilled about having the XTIDE board plugged in...especially at the default port/memory address. It conflicts with the onboard Real Time Clock. You can remove a jumper on the motherboard to disable the clock. Theoretically, changing the XTIDE configuration in software should fix this, but when I've tried to do this by updating the BIOS and re-flashing the EEPROM, I start getting "Unhandled software interrupt" errors.

If you want to keep your original drives connected, you can do what I did with my XTIDE boards and add a +5v jumper to pin 20 of the IDE connector. I'm using my XTIDE boards with industrial Flash modules, which work much better with the XTIDE than CF cards in IDE adapters.

EDIT: ninja'ed! Yes, serial/parallel transfers work well, as do Ethernet transfers. I have a NE1000 Ethernet card in my Model D at the moment, and make extensive use of the mTCP collection of TCP/IP applications, especially IRCjr and FTP. I've also had more success with SyQuest EZ-Flyer parallel port drives...the SyQuest DOS driver supports the 8088 out of the box, whereas I believe the standard IOmega ZIP driver requires a 286 or V20.

 

[modem7]

whereas I believe the standard IOmega ZIP driver requires a 286 or V20.

Correct, which is why I specified the use of the PALMZIP driver.

How do I get ahold of one of these? I don't have the means at this point to build one myself. Can I be put on a list to purchase one or three???

Member lynchaj sells just the PCB, and so that is not suitable to you.

Member hargle sells kits (you construct), and so that is not suitable to you. Although you may know someone who can contruct the kit.

Members like me are prepared (within reason) to contruct kits for other members, but postage costs may be expensive (e.g. I'm in Australia).

 

[RWIndiana]

Thanks for the quick replies. You guys are awesome. Sorry, I know nothing about parallel/serial transfers, though I've seen that mentioned before as I googled. What all does that involve and how does it work? It does concern me that my LEPC might be fussy about tolerating the XTIDE card! Perhaps parallel or serial transfer is the way to go. But like I said, I don't know the first thing about actually doing it.

At one time I had a Backpack hard drive that worked fine (850mb I believe), but it's been very flaky lately.

 

[RWIndiana]

Oh, as far as the ethernet card, I'm not sure how to do that either! It appears to be a coaxial cable? How would that connect to a modern computer or network?

 

[Chuck(G)]

Oh, as far as the ethernet card, I'm not sure how to do that either! It appears to be a coaxial cable? How would that connect to a modern computer or network?

The easiest way is to find an old 10baseT/10base2 hub and run the coax (and terminators on both ends!) into the 10base2 side, then use the 10baseT output. Since 10base2 has been dead for awhile, it's getting harder to find terminators and other BNC fittings for the job.

Instead of a network hub, you might find a PCI NIC with a coax connector on it. You'd still need the coax and terminators, however.

Personally, I'd probably use the serial or parallel port on the model D to transfer the files. It's not fast, but it works and it's cheap.

ISTR that the Model D has its quirks...

 

[glitch]

Yes, the Model D definitely has some quirks. I've had a difficult time with hard drives in it. For instance, the first hard drive I put in my Model D was a ST-225 with a full-length Adaptec MFM controller. After installing an incorrect driver, which locked the system on startup, I discovered the Model D would no longer boot from floppy with the hard drive controller installed. I had to remove the controller and hard drive, place them in my IBM XT, and remove the driver from CONFIG.SYS.

As to Ethernet, I use the 15-pin MAU port on my NE1000 with a 10baseT AUI tranceiver. It allows one to plug a 10baseT cable into one end, and fits directly onto the card's DB-15 port. You can still find 8-bit ISA Ethernet cards with twisted pair 10baseT connections though...I have a (nonworking) 3Com 3C503 somewhere that's got twisted pair as well as a MAU port.

Serial/parallel is probably your best bet if you don't want to fool around with an Ethernet card and packet drivers. All you need is a serial null modem cable and serial software for the Model D and host machine. I use MS-Kermit with my Model D, and either Kermit under Linux or HyperTerminal under Windows for file transfers. It's really convenient and requires minimal setup if you just need to transfer a few files now and then. Plus, the null modem cable will allow file transfers with other machines that have serial ports, if you have/end up getting more vintage machines (it's sort of a disease ). You can also use INTERSVR/INTERLNK with MS-DOS and early versions of Windows.

 

[vwestlife]

Certain diskette controller cards support 1.44MB drives, work in 8088 PCs, and require no driver software.

Or, a 1.44 MB floppy drive will work in 720K-only compatibility mode on any PC/XT-class system, with no special controller required. If you have a lot of Double Density floppies on hand, this is certainly a lot cheaper than trying to hunt down the special High Density controller. DD floppies are a little harder to find than HD ones and they only hold half as much data, but most XT-class software is small anyway, and it allows compatibility with classic PCs which came from the factory with 720K drives, like a lot of the Tandy 1000 series.

 

[modem7]

Or, a 1.44 MB floppy drive will work in 720K-only compatibility mode on any PC/XT-class system, with no special controller required.

That needs to be qualified. An example scenario: Early versions of DOS and early BIOS' have no knowledge of 80 track floppy drives. If I connect a 1.44M (or 720K) diskette drive to the double density controller in my IBM 5150 then boot the 5150 (DOS 3.1 loaded on C, the 1.44M drive behaves like a 360K drive.

However, I think your suggestion is a good one because even if the user's scenario matches the example I gave, there is a workaround: If the machine is booted from a 720K boot diskette and the DOS version on that diskette is relatively late (e.g. DOS 6), then the drive becomes recognised as a 720K one (until reboot from C.

If needed, a 720K boot diskette (DOS 6.21) can be made from a 1.44M diskette using step 2 of the procedure at http://members.dodo.com.au/~slappanel555/5170_gsetup.htm

 

[MikeS]

Thanks for the quick replies. You guys are awesome. Sorry, I know nothing about parallel/serial transfers, though I've seen that mentioned before as I googled. What all does that involve and how does it work? It does concern me that my LEPC might be fussy about tolerating the XTIDE card! Perhaps parallel or serial transfer is the way to go. But like I said, I don't know the first thing about actually doing it.

Assuming you have serial and/or parallel ports on both machines there are various options (as usual) but the most straightforward is the Interlink/Interserver combo that is included as part of most later versions of MS-DOS; One computer becomes a dedicated server, and the client works normally but with the disk drives of the server appearing and available as additional drives.

The only thing required is a compatible cable, either a null-modem or crossover serial cable with connectors or adapters to match your serial ports, or a special somewhat harder to find or make "Laplink" parallel-to-parallel cable.

The serial cable is easier to find or make and it allows a remote installation from the 'client', i.e. you don't have the problem of how to install the server software if you can't get files on to the server in the first place; on the other hand, the parallel cable allows somewhat faster transfer speeds.

If you have compatible diskette drives that's the simplest but least convenient way to transfer data; a serial/parallel connection needs a cable and is slower, but lets you copy a whole hard disk without having to swap floppies. Ethernet is the same but faster, but requires a network card or adapter on both ends, somewhat more complicated software, and a readily available crossover cable or hub of course.

And finally there is the option of either temporarily or permanently moving or adding a hard disk/CF card as per the original XT-IDE post, or an external equivalent like the ZIP or Backpack drives.

 

[vwestlife]

That needs to be qualified. An example scenario: Early versions of DOS and early BIOS' have no knowledge of 80 track floppy drives. If I connect a 1.44M (or 720K) diskette drive to the double density controller in my IBM 5150 then boot the 5150 (DOS 3.1 loaded on C, the 1.44M drive behaves like a 360K drive.

Using an appropriate DRIVPARM (with DOS 3.2 or higher) or DRIVER.SYS command in CONFIG.SYS solves that problem -- or you can just format the disks ahead of time on a more modern system. There are no problems with reading or writing to 720K floppies; it's only when formatting, or doing a track-by-track copy of, a disk that it will treat the disk as 360K instead of 720K, unless you use either of those commands.

 

[NobodyIsHere]

Hi! I agree that using LapLink or MS-DOS INTERLNK is probably your best bet if all you want is to move files off an old computer. I've used LapLink with the serial cable and the parallel cable and it works fine. LapLink is very easy to set up and is reasonably fast.

The XT-IDE is an option too although I am not sure about its ability to co-exist with MFM drives. I seem to recall the newer BIOS support this better than the original ones did. I just received a small batch of the XT-IDE PCBs so if you or anyone else is interested in making their own XT-IDE you can use it as an option. However, as modem7 said the XT-IDE assumes a bit of Do-It-Yourself assembly and gathering parts. It is about the easiest computer board project you can do so it is a good one to start with.

You can also use the network approach but that tends to be overly complicated for small amount of files, I think. Probably the 1.44MB floppy drives is the easiest method if you can get them to work on the old computer.

So there are plenty of options on transferring files. I recommend picking one and trying it. If it doesn't work, post here and maybe we can help. Try multiple approaches since one might be right for you.

Good luck! Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

 

[RWIndiana]

Ok, weighing the options here before I decide to pursue one route. What kind of speeds could I expect from using kermit with a serial null modem connection vs. laplink/parallel/whatever? How long might it take to move a directory tree of around 30MiB from the 8088 to, say, a Linux laptop?

 

[modem7]

Ok, weighing the options here before I decide to pursue one route. What kind of speeds could I expect from using kermit with a serial null modem connection vs. laplink/parallel/whatever? How long might it take to move a directory tree of around 30MiB from the 8088 to, say, a Linux laptop?

Refer to the earlier thread of: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?13430

Based on that thread, 2400 baud might be the best reliable connection you can get over a serial cable to an 8088 based machine.

Refer to post #29 in that thread for restrictions in the use of Laplink.

 

[modem7]

The XT-IDE is an option too although I am not sure about its ability to co-exist with MFM drives. I seem to recall the newer BIOS support this better than the original ones did.

It certainly works well in my 8088 clone. The XTIDE menu presents me with three boot options: the floppy drive / the CF connected to my XTIDE card / the ST-225.

 

[glitch]

Refer to the earlier thread of: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?13430

Based on that thread, 2400 baud might be the best reliable connection you can get over a serial cable to an 8088 based machine.

Refer to post #29 in that thread for restrictions in the use of Laplink.

Eh? 2400 baud? Hardly! Even my Kaypro II can do file transfers at 19.2K! You'll be able to do at least that fast...I forget what the fastest speed I managed to get my Model D to do serial transfers at, since I pretty much rely on Ethernet for transfers anymore. It's not blazing fast, but it's definitely not 2400 baud.

 

[Ole Juul]

Refer to the earlier thread of: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?13430

Based on that thread, 2400 baud might be the best reliable connection you can get over a serial cable to an 8088 based machine.

Refer to post #29 in that thread for restrictions in the use of Laplink.

I can confirm that a 5150 with an original IBM serial card can easily and reliably sustain 9600. The UART should certainly sustain 19.2K as glitch suggests. That's a quick lookup for anyone interested.

 

[MikeS]

I can confirm that a 5150 with an original IBM serial card can easily and reliably sustain 9600. The UART should certainly sustain 19.2K as glitch suggests. That's a quick lookup for anyone interested.

You do need a full null-modem connection though; faking the handshake lines won't cut it.