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Trying to make bootable disks with ADTPro

falter

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Joined
Jan 22, 2011
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6,574
Location
Vancouver, BC
I've had my Apple II+ for years now but never had the chance to fire it up as I did not have software or even a disk drive. Finally got a Disk II drive fairly cheap, and then discovered ADTPro, which rather ingeniously allows me to transfer disk images to the Apple from my PC via audio link to the Apple's cassette port.

I also recently won an ebay auction for a working IIe for $10 or so. It works wonderfully! Here's the two of them set up a different times last night:

appleiie.jpgappleiiplus.jpg

Anyway, I initially tried ADTPro with the II+ -- partly because I figured it was first here, and also because it has this really wicked old joystick, which is directly socketed into the motherboard. I do have a IIe compatible joystick around.. but didn't want to hunt for it. Anyway for whatever reason, the initial bootstrapping transfer would not work. Without trying too hard, I switched to the IIe. Still didn't work, but I discovered I had the cable in the wrong cassette port. Still didn't work -- I checked the cable at both ends, adjusted volume.. and then finally it worked.

Eventually got the transfer program running and formatted a few disks. Now, when I was a kid we were all Commodore so I missed the whole Apple II scene. I was putting in double-sided double density floppies. The drive formats them ok -- however, when I set the client program to receive a disk, if it has say, 280 blocks to write, it'll write the first 100 or so just fine (it's always random) and then suddenly as we get further along it starts having trouble writing to disk. Eventually on the last 'groups' of blocks it mostly comes up bad.

Is there any way to pin down if this is the drive or the disks? Am I using the right type? I have a stockpile of old floppies. I did have a few with bad sectors come up when I was trying to get my IBM AT going. I'm wondering if I'm just having a bad run... but again, wondering also if I just have the wrong stuff here, or if the drive is hooped. Any ideas would be most appreciated! I must have Choplifter!!
 
You are using the correct disks (DS/DD), but it's very possible the drive is just dirty. Take the drive apart and clean the metal rails the head assembly rides on with alcohol, as well as cleaning the head.

Another possibility is that the drive speed is off, but you need a utility (like Copy II+) to check the drive speed, and since you don't have a working drive, getting Copy II+ is going to be difficult...

-Ian
 
You are using the correct disks (DS/DD), but it's very possible the drive is just dirty. Take the drive apart and clean the metal rails the head assembly rides on with alcohol, as well as cleaning the head.

Another possibility is that the drive speed is off, but you need a utility (like Copy II+) to check the drive speed, and since you don't have a working drive, getting Copy II+ is going to be difficult...

-Ian

You mean swab the actual drive heads with alcohol + qtip as well as the rails?

It does seem like the problem is consistenly 'further out' on the disk, if it writes the way it seems..
 
You mean swab the actual drive heads with alcohol + qtip as well as the rails?

It does seem like the problem is consistenly 'further out' on the disk, if it writes the way it seems..

Correct. Sometimes the rails get gunked up with dirt, grease, etc and make it harder for the heads to move easily.

To disassemble the drive (from memory):

Remove the four screws on the bottom of the drive, and slide the cover off the back.
Disconnect the head cable from the frontmost side of the top circuit board.
Remove the two screws holding the front of the circuit board in place, slide it forward and flip it up
Pop the tin shield off the mechanism, allowing access to the heads
Dip a q-tip in 91% Isopropyl alcohol, flip the little black arm up to access the head, and clean the head thoroughly.
While you have the black arm up, look at the felt pad to make sure it hasn't fallen off.
Clean the metal rails the head assebmly rides on with alcohol on a q-tip.
Move the head assembly back and forth to get good access to the rails, and make sure it's free.

Flip the board back down and reconnect the head cable and hook it back up to test.

If it still doesn't work, the speed might be too far off:

If you want to adjust the speed, the control is on the little board on the very back - it's a multiturn pot, accessable from the right hand side of the drive. Unbolt the drive frame from the bottom plate and flip it on it's side - the flywheel has 50 and 60hz strobe patterns on it. Shine an AC powered light on it and format a disk. While the disk is spinning, you can dial in the speed so the strobe pattern stays still. (use the 60hz one in US, 50hz in europe).

Once you can write a disk from an image, transfer over Copy II+, then boot it. Use the drive utility to display the speed of the drive and fine tune it with the control.

-Ian
 
Cleaning a Disk II

Cleaning a Disk II

To disassemble the drive (from memory):
Here's a video of the procedure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMF3PL17kqg&tracker=False
You can also shine a fluorescent light on the pattern wheel on the bottom of the drive and adjust the speed until the pattern appears stable.

But do make sure your disks are DS/DD, and not HD. If you were using some with your AT, they might be HD...
 
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Okay, I did a cleaning per the video, gave it another disk, and this time it wrote the entire disk no problem at all. This was an image of choplifter, one of my favourites.

Anyway, after it received the image, I shut down and restarted.

The drive began reading the disk, however it made a noise I hadn't heard before... it was like a whuhwhuhwhuhwhuhwhuh. Not a harsh sound.. almost like it was trying to read but kinda stuck.

Finally it came to a * prompt with what I presume is a dump of an error? Bunch of hex. No choplifter.

Tried the disk on my IIc -- got Error #8.

Wish I had a way to hook up the IIc for the ADTPro transfer... I'm pretty sure its drive is working.
 
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The drive began reading the disk, however it made a noise I hadn't heard before... it was like a whuhwhuhwhuhwhuhwhuh. Not a harsh sound.. almost like it was trying to read but kinda stuck.

Are you sure the disk was inserted properly? With these drives, it's possible to slam a disk in there off center - the spindle simply crinkles the hub, rather than grabbing it. It'll spin funny and make that noise.

Try another disk. Watch the head moving while it's formatting/writing, and make sure it's moving freely.

-Ian
 
Are you sure the disk was inserted properly? With these drives, it's possible to slam a disk in there off center - the spindle simply crinkles the hub, rather than grabbing it. It'll spin funny and make that noise.

Try another disk. Watch the head moving while it's formatting/writing, and make sure it's moving freely.

-Ian

Head seems to be moving just fine -- tried another disk -- formatted ok, transferred the image ok, wrote it ok -- this time when I started up, basically the disk just kept spinning. No head movement. It's different every time.
 
When you boot the II, it's supposed to seek the heads to track zero, that's the clunking sound you usually hear.

Have you tried other disk images than just this game? Have you tried formatting a blank disk as a bootable DOS 3.3 disk and booting that?

Also, just for grins, try reaseating the disk controller board in the II. I've seen that cause issues booting - but at the same time, it shouldn't be able to format and write from ADT either.

-Ian
 
When you boot the II, it's supposed to seek the heads to track zero, that's the clunking sound you usually hear.

Have you tried other disk images than just this game? Have you tried formatting a blank disk as a bootable DOS 3.3 disk and booting that?

Also, just for grins, try reaseating the disk controller board in the II. I've seen that cause issues booting - but at the same time, it shouldn't be able to format and write from ADT either.

-Ian

I've tried a few others. Now am I correct in my assumption that *all* apple game disks were bootable? Or would some be called up after booting DOS first?

I'm trying a DOS 3.3 image right now. Just prior to that I tried an image for 'Mystery House'. Before when I would format a disk, if I tried to read it after in the ADTPro program (Volumes) it would generate an I/O error again. This Mystery House Disk I did is simply showing 'no name'.

Wish I had some 'new' DS DD disks to try with. I'm kind of wondering if the audio setup here is doing me in -- although it works fine every time for transferring PRODOS..
 
Yes!

I got DOS 3.3 (a dsk image I found) to load successfully. So I've got a boot disk now!

The only thing I did was tweak the microphone input levels (I'm using a laptop with microphone jack.. not line-in. I dropped the mic volume and upped the boost.. just kept tweaking it until the system could hear it. For some reason that Disk went over ok. So now I'll re-try others and see if I can read them. Don't know any DOS 3.3 commands though!!
 
Thanks David.

Well guys, I now have Choplifter!! Looks like the audio settings may have been the culprit? Or maybe the drive just needed some warm up exercises. Whatever it is, I got to play Choplifter on the original machine I first played it on 20+ years ago. Oh the memories!! :)
 
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