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Another PET 2001 motherboard needs your help...

Actually, I don't even have to have the probes attached. A little more playing around reveals that with jumper leads attached to pin 13 and 2 of C8 basically allows me to turn the screen effect on and off at will. these jumper leads dont connect to anything else and just hang loose.

It also seems the jumper leads have to be a certain length otherwise it doesn't work. I can flip from the bad startup screen to the good one by just connecting the end of a short lead coming of pin 2 with another lead (effectively making the lead longer).
 
I've just posted the results, but I didn't use pin 13 as the trigger, hopefully this is ok.

What did you use as trigger?

Edit: sorry if I kind of insist, but to correctly interpret the pictures, we need all the details of it, like V/cm, time/cm, trigger signal (sometimes even more details like trigger edge, trigger delays and what not you can use on the scope).
 
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Nothing. I didn't use any triggers. I didn't get your note until after I'd done the probing :-(

Do I need to redo the test for pin 12 using pin 13 as a trigger?
(I'm assuming testing pin 13 with pin 13 as a trigger is not possible)
 
Yes, that would be good. The point is I want to see how the timing of the signals relate to each other. So both need a common reference point. For this it would be good to do this measurement of pin 12 again, using pin 13 as a trigger. If possible also measure pin 2, again using pin 13 as the trigger.
 
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It also seems the jumper leads have to be a certain length otherwise it doesn't work. I can flip from the bad startup screen to the good one by just connecting the end of a short lead coming of pin 2 with another lead (effectively making the lead longer).

There are some nasty capacitive effects going on here; just a few puffs (pF) of capacitance is creating havoc.

Another real concern is the zero level on C8-2. Is it really at 1Volt and not ground? This is a huge problem if true. Please check the ground to the chip at pin 7 and also the ground at the K input (pin 4). They should be at dead zero.

Also please always line up "ground" on each scope trace on one of the horizontal division lines so it is easier to determine voltages. There is a knob on each input channel to do this and a switch on each channel to ground the input to help perform this procedure.

You are getting close to solving the problem with these measurements. Keep up the good work.
 
yes, my mistake...fixed now.
It's 1.30am here now so my mind is getting fuzzy :-/

I'll check this all again tomorrow (Today!) just incase I made a mistake.
 
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I have made some calculations. Starting from the 8MHz clock I found that going through C9 QB, QC, QD and C8, that C8 pin 2 should go low about 45ns after the falling edge of the 8MHz clock (C9 pin 1). On the other hand, going through D8 and C8 again, the reset pulse should cause C8 pin 2 go high again 25ns after the rising edge of the 8MHz clock.

Between falling and rising edge of an 8MHz clock are 63ns, so the pulse should go from 45ns to 63ns+25ns=88ns (counted from the falling edge of the clock). I.e. the pulse on C8 pin 2 has a pulse width of 88ns-45ns=43ns (approximately). But that corresponds well with the signals as taken from the working PET and is fine within all TTL / input specs.

Now, on the broken PET, if the C9 counter only has a delay of 5ns more per counting step, the pulse would loose another 15ns, resulting in a pulse of 30ns width only.
This picture http://web.me.com/lord_philip/other_computers/20012.html#71 actually shows that the pulse is only about 20ns, compared to the 40ns as per spec.

We can actually also see an indication for this in http://web.me.com/lord_philip/other_computers/20012.html#78 . The trigger is the reset signal from D8 going into C8 pin 13. The start of that signal is triggered via the rising 8MHz clock, so we have a reference to that clock. Now the 8MHz clock is divided and we see the result in the second signal on that picture. And we see that the counted clock is about 10-15ns later in the broken PET than it is in the working PET.

Assumptions made: for C9, D8 each step is a standard LS delay of 10ns, my data book says 15ns for the 'LS107 at C8.

Edit: My calculations: http://www.flickr.com/photos/afachat/5772084301/in/photostream/lightbox/
 
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Now, on the broken PET, if the C9 counter only has a delay of 5ns more per counting step, the pulse would loose another 15ns, resulting in a pulse of 30ns width only.
This picture http://web.me.com/lord_philip/other_computers/20012.html#71 actually shows that the pulse is only about 20ns, compared to the 40ns as per spec.


André,

I follow your logic but I do not think the problem has to do with fast or slow clocks. My hypothesis is that there is a high impedance short between C8-2 (/Q of the flip flop) and C8-13 (/reset). This would explain the improper delay (too fast) between these signals and also why C8-2 is raised above ground.

Do you think that about 200 ohms between these signals could cause the symptoms we are seeing?

An easy test would be to remove C8 from its socket and with power off, measure the resistance between pin 2 and 13. Properly it should read only the leakage paths in the various chips say > 10K ohms. If it is much less, we may have found the problem.

I imagine Phil is asleep now so we may have to wait a while for this test.

Perhaps we will get lucky and it will turn out to be a flux-coated solder splash rather than internal to the printed wiring board.
-Dave
 
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Between falling and rising edge of an 8MHz clock are 63ns, so the pulse should go from 45ns to 63ns+25ns=88ns (counted from the falling edge of the clock). I.e. the pulse on C8 pin 2 has a pulse width of 88ns-45ns=43ns (approximately).

André,

Excellent analysis of the timing circuits. I agree with the 43 nS. When I looked at the circuit originally, I assumed that the C8-3 output would be very close to 62.5 nS (1/2 period of 8MHz). I'm guessing the Commodore designer did too. But it turns out that, for such an important signal, one that clocks the screen address counters, and that loads the character ROM shift register, it is a fairly skinny signal (although when working properly, it is 'good enough').

The designers really should have used a synchronous counter like a 74LS163 rather than a ripple counter (74LS93) for the countdown chain.
-Dave
 
Wow André,
Thats quite impressive indeed. I wish I could understand half of it though. My brain gets a little confused, but thank you very much for the effort. I think the scan of your analysis sheet actually looks like some abstract art...quite beautiful.

Well, I have taken a reading between C8 pin 2 and 13 with my digital multimeter, but It doesn't seem to lock in on anything, and is always fluctuating, so I broke out my old analog meter which I haven't really used before and took a reading at X1k and X10 Ohm setting. Actually I'm not 100% sure how to interpret the measurement scale (which is why I bought the digital meter), so instead of getting it wrong I've posted it as a picture on my site here:
http://web.me.com/lord_philip/other_computers/20012.html#80

and here:

http://web.me.com/lord_philip/other_computers/20012.html#81
 

Phil,
Both readings indicate high impedance. The first one indicates 30K Ohms and the other 5K Ohms. I'm not sure why they are so far apart; perhaps you did not zero the meter before the readings. Anyway, I was hoping for around 200 Ohms which would have indicated a problem on the board. So, my hypotheses has been debunked.

While you have the meter handy, can you measure pin 2 on the socket with the other pins on the socket, looking for a low reading?
 
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Phil,
Thanks for taking the measurements, but I don't see any problem area in this data to explore further. Pin 7 (GND) and pin 14 (Vcc) are lower than the rest but I think that would be normal.

This is a real inscrutable problem. I'm sure glad that the 'jumper on C8-3' trick can somehow fix it in case we never get to the bottom of the real problem.
 
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What next?

What next?

I'm running out of ideas.

Of course one thing to do is to follow up on André's slow counter theory and measure the time delay between the 8 MHz clock and the clock to the C8 flip flop. The typical time for this ripple counter is 30 nS as André said, but if it is quite a bit longer, it would lead to a skinnier C8-3 clock (although not perhaps as skinny as the one we are seeing). The fix would be to replace the LS93 at C9 and try to get the pulse back to 43 nS and see if that helps.

Another thing to try would be to hang a magic 100 pF capacitor on various pins on C8 to filter/stretch the signals and get some more insight into the problem.
 
I'm running out of ideas.

Oh no, not you too!

I'll get myself a couple of 100pf capacitors. Can you explain exactly how I go about doing this?

As for André's clock theory, I'll wait until he chimes in again to see how he thinks I should best move forward, however I'll also grab a 74LS93 while I'm at Akihabara this evening, just incase.

EDIT: I ended up getting 2x 74LS00's, 2x 74LS74's and 2x 74LS93's and 4x 100pf ceramic caps.
 
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Of course one thing to do is to follow up on André's slow counter theory and measure the time delay between the 8 MHz clock and the clock to the C8 flip flop. The typical time for this ripple counter is 30 nS as André said, but if it is quite a bit longer, it would lead to a skinnier C8-3 clock (although not perhaps as skinny as the one we are seeing). The fix would be to replace the LS93 at C9 and try to get the pulse back to 43 nS and see if that helps.

Yes, that would be a good action to measure the delay between the 8MHz clock and the C8 input, comparing the working and the broken PET. If that really reveals that delay difference, I fear we have to take the risk and replace the C9. If not, then I'm running out of ideas as well....

But a warning: there are different versions of the '93 IC out there, with different pin assignments. Please make sure that the one you got has the exact pinout as required.

André
 
I'll get myself a couple of 100pf capacitors. Can you explain exactly how I go about doing this?

The ceramics I'm think about come with leads about 2" long. Too be super safe about not inadvertently touching those leads to other than the desired place, you can strip a couple of inches of insulation from 20 gauge wire and slip them on the legs of the capacitors if you want.

Then tack solder one lead to pin 7 of U8 (ground), and the other lead to one of the test outputs such as pin 3, 2, 12 and 13. Log the results and which tests seem to make the problem better or worse.

Then we will all put on our 'thinking hats', hold hands and figure out "WHY".
 
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