[Story Researching] Apple ][ as of 1986 Questions

[Goggles2114]

First post here, and really I regestered pretty much to ask this question since Here seems like the most appropriate forum.

I'm writing a series of short stories based in a somewhat hollywoodized version of the 80's. One of the protagonists, thanks mostly to his ladyfriend/potential love interest convinced him, has an Apple ][e. Guy's just starting highschool and most of his income was either from summer work, weekend jobs, allowance, or occasional gifts from relatives with money. Family is upper-middle class for the most part but most of his setup is second hand, swap meet finds, or the like as of the start of things.

* * *

I know harddrives in the mid eighties were obscenely expensive (a 20 meg drive for a few thousand bucks comes to mind.) So that's right out.

What sort of modem speed would be considered likely (since said lady friend runs a BBS and is in fact how they first met.) Was thinking of giving the guy a 1200 baud modem but I dunno, were 2400's on the second hand market in 85/summer of 86?

Given he's not into the nuts and bolts of computing and sees it mostly as an interesting and useful tool. Appleworks or Apple Writer?

Two seperate floppy drives or the side by side DUO drive (where you had moniter setting on top of it setting on top of the computer.)

Were there any monitors that matched the ][e case style that weren't the old green monochrome displays?

This thing would've been the sum of his entertainment budget outside of the occasional outing for movies, or rental. I know i want him to be big into IF so the original Zork trilogy is kindof a given, but what else would've been around for the Apple? Also... at that time were there any easy ways to make z-machine compatible games or was it a write your own process at the time? I ask since the whole point of z machine was to allow cross platform capability, which would'e made sharing with friends that have other systems simpler (in theory. i could have all that sideways.)

Were there any zelda-like games for the platform? Yes at this point Zelda itself is just coming out so maybe i should ask 'is there a way I could have mr layperson get hold of people to build a zelda-like using just fidonet and or random bbs's for communicating'?

Since I plan on having this guy upgrade to a GS at some point in the story.. other than 'keeping up with the jonses and showing brand loyalty in hopes that apple won't kill the ][ line off' would there be any compelling reason to upgrade rather than just stick with the old workhorse? What sorts of trade-in programs were there other than 'we'll stuff GS guts into your old box but you won't have the new ports' conversion? Would any of the accelerator cards for the ][e be of any use on the GS?

 

[Geo3]

Hi.
Sent you a PM.

 

[Goggles2114]

Got it.

So pretty much the best reason for a GS would be to maintain compatibility with the older apple ][ material and still have a chance at being current.

What concerns me is my looking around here and there has hinted at (if not outright stated) that the monitors for the E C and GS are all incompatible with eachother (IE plugging a GS monitor into a C could cause the motherboard to short.)

Also found an approximate price list. Thousand bucks new, plus another five hundred for a color monitor. I can see that in all honesty. Hard Drive I'd seen is less expensive than I thought (only around a thousand instead of three.) Still Ungodly expensive, but not the three to five thousand dollars I thought it'd be.

Bugs me that Apple had the headphone jack output to mono when the GS could do stereo, but I guess either a cost cutting measure or, more likely, one of those subtle ways to try encouraging people to switch to Mac. Granted there were third party cards that fixed this problem, but then you run into the issue of 'OK which slot do I put this thing in and what function can I live with giving up.

Did not know they came with an appletalk port. So... gonna have to look into that see what's going on.

Do kinda have to wonder why you PMed the information rather than just put most of it in thread, since the whole point of me showing up here was hoping a bunch of people who make it their business to dig around older computers would know things I'm having problems finding on Google (then again what I"m wanting might be twenty pages deep or something.)

 

[david__schmidt]

Did not know they came with an appletalk port.

The GS has serial ports that can do Appletalk, yes. Also of historical interest: the ADB first appeared on the GS.

 

[magnusfalkirk]

You can use a monitor for an Apple //e or //c with the GS, you just have to plug the cable into the composite out on the back of the GS. And the monitors are interchangeable between the //e and the //c. The only monitor that couldn't be used with another computer was the monitor for the GS, it was strictly for the GS.

 

[Geo3]

Yes the IIgs had open slots, you did not always lose the port when you plugged something in.

The IIe and IIc monitors worked on the IIgs if you used the the RCA one wire plug.

The years get blurred after a while. A lot of people can not remember the name of game they played over and over for years and are now looking for it. If you want correct dates you will have to check them out to be sure.

It is easier to talk then to write and faster too.

Take Care

 

[david__schmidt]

I'm writing a series of short stories based in a somewhat hollywoodized version of the 80's. One of the protagonists, thanks mostly to his ladyfriend/potential love interest convinced him, has an Apple ][e. Guy's just starting highschool and most of his income was either from summer work, weekend jobs, allowance, or occasional gifts from relatives with money. Family is upper-middle class for the most part but most of his setup is second hand, swap meet finds, or the like as of the start of things.

I was that guy (minus the love interest and the money for Apple equipment, of course) so I'll give you my perspective on the plausibility of the story.

I know harddrives in the mid eighties were obscenely expensive (a 20 meg drive for a few thousand bucks comes to mind.) So that's right out.

Correct. If you had money for an Apple, you had money for a floppy drive - though they were ridiculously expensive, too. You've always paid more for Apple gear than any one else's.

What sort of modem speed would be considered likely (since said lady friend runs a BBS and is in fact how they first met.) Was thinking of giving the guy a 1200 baud modem but I dunno, were 2400's on the second hand market in 85/summer of 86?

I bought a 1200 baud modem for beginning college computing in 1986 from a local retailer for not too much cash. 2400s were definitely not second hand then.

Given he's not into the nuts and bolts of computing and sees it mostly as an interesting and useful tool. Appleworks or Apple Writer?

"Everybody" used Appleworks.

Two seperate floppy drives or the side by side DUO drive (where you had moniter setting on top of it setting on top of the computer.)

If he upgraded - he was probably using separate floppies, and probably started with his IIe with only one; so he maybe bought a second later on (maybe with the IIgs).

Were there any monitors that matched the ][e case style that weren't the old green monochrome displays?

The Apple Composite Color Display matched... but how much money does this guy have? For color, everybody had Amdeks, Japanese no-names, or just used the family TV. That started to suck more when going into 80 column mode, which made the green screen actually more desirable.

This thing would've been the sum of his entertainment budget outside of the occasional outing for movies, or rental. I know i want him to be big into IF so the original Zork trilogy is kindof a given, but what else would've been around for the Apple?

Everything by Infocom (be careful on years of release of some of the later titles).

Also... at that time were there any easy ways to make z-machine compatible games or was it a write your own process at the time? I ask since the whole point of z machine was to allow cross platform capability, which would'e made sharing with friends that have other systems simpler (in theory. i could have all that sideways.)

You have that sideways. The z-machine was to make it easy for Infocom to port their games to other platforms.

Were there any zelda-like games for the platform?

Not for the platform, but BBS MUDs were around... hack, rogue, etc.

Since I plan on having this guy upgrade to a GS at some point in the story.. other than 'keeping up with the jonses and showing brand loyalty in hopes that apple won't kill the ][ line off' would there be any compelling reason to upgrade rather than just stick with the old workhorse?

Speed, graphics. The stock IIgs was 2.8ish MHz, quite a bit faster than the stock IIe. Game writers were exploiting the platform, so he was pirating a higher class of game by then.

What sorts of trade-in programs were there other than 'we'll stuff GS guts into your old box but you won't have the new ports' conversion?

From Apple? Same old saw: "Get on the upgrade treadmill. Buy more kit from us."

Would any of the accelerator cards for the ][e be of any use on the GS?

Nope. lots of the other old cards he had would have worked (the Hayes SmartModem 300 he had in the IIe, etc.), but the Super Serial card would have been obviated by the new serial ports... except he had to buy new cables from Apple.

 

[barythrin]

I was thinking personally if he's a budget enthusiast he'd end up with a 300baud modem from folks that already upgraded to 1200 but David probably has the best experience with his parallel history. The IIgs could do graphics a lot better (GUI interface) and had much nicer sound for gaming or music/midi. If he was into gaming or business it would be a logical step up in technology.

The converter for the IIgs would have been relatively cheap way to keep using his old monitor which would make sense. Hard drive I still think would be out of the question, there just wasn't that much need for them at that point when most programs fit on a single 5.25" floppy.

I agree he'd probably end up playing BBS games/MUDs. Plus that gives an opportunity to play a game and chat with another user if it was a multiline BBS. Other wise a single line BBS you'd end up having user names, possibly last logged in lists, messages to other users, and possibly seeing a list of the last few players of a door game (I didn't get into BBSing until later in life (early 90s) so I'm not 100% how much it changed over the years).

 

[Goggles2114]

OK this is very helpful.

I have an... incident in mind where he nets the difference between what selling his old and or unuseable cards and what's needed for a new GS (and a much needed upgrade from the 300baud modem.) Still, all this is good information to have on hand for the sake of making it feel plausable.

Plus got mentioned in PM that hamfests and flea markets would be the best method of getting second hand (or at least a good method, especially since it's un-advertised so wouldn't be flooded by folk who just picked up the paper. Now then, those people that get QST on the other hand... Diff matter .)

Anyone know if schools got discounts from apple? Could /almost/ see somebody trying to get them to tack on a few of his wishlist items on the invoice out of desperation (and being friends with some of the staff not hurting either.)

Edit: available funds. I figured whatever he'd get from summer job plus selling either accessories he definitely can't use post-upgrade and or using the fact he HAS a computer to do some light copy work.

Any sort of allowance/stipend would probably have vanished due to the fact hes got a second phone line (which is attached to somebody else's computer they left at his house so it can have said dedicated line.)

Figure he'd have gotten probably enough over the summer for a GS but he'd have to deal with using his older accessories (monitor, modem, and disk drives mostly) till he could get enough for new.

Tempted to say he'd have one of ye olden green screen monitors for the ][e due to it being far more read for straight ascii stuff (homework, BBS stuffs, Zork. Notes for DnD.) After all before upgrade would there have been a point for the color monitor?

So... Getting a budget upgrade/conversion in early 87 (after hearing about the version 0 rom issues he'd probably hold off... or am I assuming too much on learning of these problems?) That'd probably net him pretty much a souped up ][e (which itself isn't a bad thing really.) Yet he'd have to get a mouse, 3.5 disk, and i've read something about not all cards for the GS would fit the slanted case.

Maybe i'm just overthinking things. You folk have been an immense help as is.

 

[Tor]

In 1984 I was using an Apple II with 4 floppy drives.. that was the only way to get enough storage for everything. I was writing an application for UCSD Pascal, and the editor took up so much room that I had to use 'swapping' to floppy (don't recall how it worked, I just remember that it was an option) in order to be able to write the full program.

I did _not_ pay for those floppy drives myself though.. it was paid work and provided hardware. A bit later a 5MB harddisk was acquired, that could have been around 1986. Very very expensive.. but what a relief. I also used 2400 baud modems around 1986 as I recall, but my memory is much more fuzzy about that. I'm certain about the year 1984 and the four floppy drives though, because just a short while ago I found the original documentation that I wrote back then, with a printed date.

-Tor

 

[barythrin]

Hey, lol .. mikerm on the forums has a pretty accurate representation of what a scavenged nerd might end up with for sale from NM. Well he's not including that monitor in that auction BUT that monitor depending on era would be color and useable on a IIe or GS. I suppose it may confuse some people if they're expecting an Apple person to stick only to Apple gear but when scavenging any composite/RCA monitor would be a good find.

On another note, why Zelda? I'm not sure what all would be out in Apple-land that would be similar. They may have had (not online) Gauntlet or other side scrolling games. I'm also not sure what graphic ability the BBSes had for Apple generation. I know IBMs we had ability to use ASCII (monochrome) or ANSI which added color and cursor movement for fun little animations, Commodore had Petscii which was their equivalent of color and graphics to enhance their BBS experience.

If he was to purchase a nintendo and zelda he could have connected it to his computer monitor though which would have been a nice trick.

 

[david__schmidt]

Plus got mentioned in PM that hamfests and flea markets would be the best method of getting second hand (or at least a good method, especially since it's un-advertised so wouldn't be flooded by folk who just picked up the paper. Now then, those people that get QST on the other hand... Diff matter .)

Very good point. There wasn't eBay, craigslist, or anything like that. Computers were most definitely not mainstream. I used to go through our entire Sunday paper looking for any hint at all of computerdom in the form of advertisements. Almost none existed. Swap meets of all sorts is where electronic gear changed hands, and computers were a natural extension of that. I got my Franklin Ace 2200 in 1988 at a swap meet - none too cheap, either. These things were still viable computers in those days, and just because it was second hand didn't mean it was inexpensive.

Anyone know if schools got discounts from apple? Could /almost/ see somebody trying to get them to tack on a few of his wishlist items on the invoice out of desperation (and being friends with some of the staff not hurting either.)

They did get discounts. That's why classrooms were all-Apple for so long, until the PC purveyors caught on (and had something to offer beyond the DOS command line).

Could a kid get in cahoots with staff and get on the invoice? Maybe so. But money in schools is pretty hard to come by, and it's not like $500 for a floppy drive is going to go unnoticed. Copying software? A blind eye might be offered. Handing over hardware to take home? Much less likely. But if it stayed at school... maybe so.

 

[RWallmow]

Could a kid get in cahoots with staff and get on the invoice? Maybe so. But money in schools is pretty hard to come by, and it's not like $500 for a floppy drive is going to go unnoticed. Copying software? A blind eye might be offered. Handing over hardware to take home? Much less likely. But if it stayed at school... maybe so.

I know some schools in this area offered staff members deep discounts on apple gear through the district purchase contract, so its not inconceivable that some staff member could have ordered something discounted and re-sold it to a student.

I know this because my aunt was a teacher at a local elementary school in the mid to later end of the 80's. On top of district apple discounts, teachers had the option to "sign out" school computers for the summer (and longer breaks, ie x-mas and spring break's), I guess maybe the district either wanted to get the teachers more computer literate, or figured they had paid so much for the gear, it might as well be used in the summer too, or maybe they felt it was safer at a teachers home rather than an empty school. I am honestly not sure why they did that.

 

[mikerm]

Hey, lol .. mikerm on the forums has a pretty accurate representation of what a scavenged nerd might end up with for sale from NM. Well he's not including that monitor in that auction BUT that monitor depending on era would be color and useable on a IIe or GS. I suppose it may confuse some people if they're expecting an Apple person to stick only to Apple gear but when scavenging any composite/RCA monitor would be a good find.

Ya woke me up! :D It has a Commodore 1702 on it in the picture because that's the only composite monitor I have. I don't have any other Apple gear other than what's up on the marketplace. I'm really a Commodore man.

 

[Druid6900]

At this very moment, I am doing final pre-ship quality control on 2 64K floppy based Apple II+ computers and have them hooked up to a Commodore 1702 and a Commodore 1802.

In addition, I have, right here in my hand, an Apple Mouse Interface Card (670-0030-E) from 1983 that took a 9-pin serial mouse. I also have a Corvus HD interface card for the II series which means the II/II+/IIe could run a hard drive.

All this stuff transfers nicely to a IIe as well as the super serial card, so, he'd pretty much only be upgrading for a smaller drive and more speed. Why upgrade at all?

 

[Goggles2114]

Why Zelda? Mostly due to nostalgia on my part and the likelyhood of the protag seeing someone drag their nintendo over for a demo of the new hotness (and to one-up the computer guys for once.)

Was trying to figure out if there'd be something apples to apples he could counter with. There's Rouge but it's.... Hooly monkies Rouge is just plain fear inducing to me.

Edit: Why upgrade at all? Brand Loyalty comes to mind, and more speed isn't something to sneeze at. Sure you have accelerator cards for the IIe but the programmers would be limited to what you could do stock to ensure you had as wide a potential install base as possible. Especially if parts are expensive (even second hand.)

Plus after seeing some of the stuff, on youtube, the GS could potentially do Yea. That. All that.

Of course it could be lots of Want, but end up having to sideline it till right up when the GS is discontinued and picking up one of the Revision 03 units.

Pity there's no realistic way he could end up with one of the Mark Twain units (he's not a developer after all and only a handful of those had to have been made. Plus hasn't there been only one of those ever seen? Sure it had a serial number hinting at least four others were made but.... Holy Jeeze.)

 

[Tiberian Fiend]

I'm not sure what you consider "Zelda-like", but the early Ultimas were released for the Apple II and featured little dudes running around in a graphical world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HErKitZ0ovM

Also, it wouldn't be realistic for someone who's broke to upgrade to a new computer when the old one is working well, though it would be understandable if you wanted to do it for the sake of plot progression.

 

[barythrin]

Another upgrade method was what we had (I was young and still don't know why it's called this) but "dog and pony show" which was a technology flea-market with tables and people selling stuff for cheap. Used to be a great way to get RAM at a discounted price or buy a harddrive or replacement floppy drive, etc. Wasn't dirt cheap (some local stores would be there) but lots of folks making a deal and you walking out with some hefty items in your hands for a 4th of the retail cost.

Why do any of us upgrade? Doesn't need much logical sense to justify it if you want it If anything he'd save up and eventually get it anyway, maybe sell or pawn his current gear to help with the cost or maybe he's making more money now and as a status symbol wants to have a nicer system. Agreed with Ultima or Wizardry being pretty good games to choose back then also. Ultima was quite popular with it's mix of text and graphics. But again that's all single player ware.

You may also want to check a timeline of Apple products if you're being picky in accuracy. It may make more sense for him to come across a Mac 128 or something prior to a IIgs although if the we're just seeing him in the mid 80's then yes he'd be pretty happy with a IIgs if he could find one that someone swayed from.

You can see how deep into the computing plot we'll go ;-)

 

[Goggles2114]

Well all this is relatively minor (in terms of the whole) but the BBS and the fact he's into gaming is somewhat relevant since that's how he got involved in other shenannagins.... somehow involving a working Nintendo AVS prototype and guys in black suits and thick accents with guns taking it from the guy that showed it off to the rest of the club.)

You know what? Screw just asking you guys. I'm gonna go see what Apple ][ emulators are out there and what i can grab (preferably LEGALLY) to aquaint myself with the old ball of wax.

 

[tomasont]

Correct. If you had money for an Apple, you had money for a floppy drive - though they were ridiculously expensive, too. You've always paid more for Apple gear than any one else's.

When did the third-party drives become available? I have a Jameco drive that was a lot cheaper than one from Apple, but I don't if they were available this early.

"Everybody" used Appleworks.

Interesting. "Everybody" I knew was using AppleWriter (circa 1983).