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help upgradeing a tandy 1000SX

oblivion

oblivion

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just got a Tandy 1000SX today. my first 1000 series tandy. i have done a little reading but i wanted to clarify on a few paths to upgrade. mine came with the full 640K ram so my questions are

1) is it possible to increase the ram further through ISA cards?
2) i would really like to install a hard drive but what exactlly do i need? i looked up 8bit IDE controllers on ebay but they seem to be unreasonably pricey. what would be a cheap internal HDD solution?
3) is it worth the trouble in upgradeing the 8088-II to a NEC V-30? will this upgrade cause any compatibility issues?

thanks!
 
#1 Yes, but only with a hardware EMS board like the Intel Aboveboard Plus. However, unless you are going to run Lotus 1-2-3, do some programming in Turbo Pascal, or have a very slow disk that needs a large disk cache, there isn't really much you can use EMS for, so it's generally not worth the trouble.

#2 Search this forum for XT-IDE, a hobby project by members of this very forum. It's not cheap but it's not expensive either, and allows you to connect up to 127GB IDE drives to your DOS computer.

#3 The upgrade is generally worth it, since it speeds up most CPU operations between 10-30%. It rarely causes problems; the only issue might be with a handful of copy-protected diskettes. However, the NEC V20 emulates a few new instructions that actually enables some software written only for 80286 CPUs to run on it, so you gain a little there. It is generally a recommended upgrade.

If you haven't read the Tandy 1000 FAQ yet, you probably should.
 
Note trixter said V20, not V30. The SX is a 7.16mhz 8088.. the V30 you mentioned is for a 286, not an 8088... just to be clear... and yeah, it's generally worth the upgrade unless you're using it for testing. I've got two HX here -- one with the V20 and one without; one for testing and to stay "true to the original" (which I've got a CM-4 on), and one I use for doing my dev work and just playing around (which gets the CM-11).

Watch out with "8 bit IDE" as there actually is such a thing that's distinctly different from the normal IDE we all know -- such controller cards are NOT compatible with 16 bit IDE drives. It's an entirely different type of drive and interface -- which is what makes XT-IDE so good, as it lets you plug a 16 bit IDE drive into the 8 bit BUS.

The number of programs that use EMS is a fairly short list... oddly enough including Wing Commander... which would pre-cache much of the graphics in it making the game run smooth as silk even down at 4.77mhz. (It would run on so little system without EMS, but it was a painful experience).

Back in the day I had a 8mhz XT Clone without a hard drive, but I had 4 megs of EMS. I configured 3 megs as a RAM disk, installed WC to it, and let it have the remaining meg as EMS. In a number of ways I wish I still had that machine.
 
does it make a diffrence between the plastic and cermaic V-20? i assume the cermaic is a more durable chip but is it really worth the extra money in this machine?

also the Tandy 1000 FAQ states you can replace the 8086 in a SX with a v-30, thats what through me off. missprint?
 
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oblivion said:
does it make a diffrence between the plastic and cermaic V-20? i assume the cermaic is a more durable chip but is it really worth the extra money in this machine?

also the Tandy 1000 FAQ states you can replace the 8086 in a SX with a v-30, thats what through me off. missprint?
Click to expand...

The 1000 TL has an 80286 riding on an 8-bit bus - consider it a misprint.
 
oblivion said:
just got a Tandy 1000SX today. my first 1000 series tandy. i have done a little reading but i wanted to clarify on a few paths to upgrade. mine came with the full 640K ram so my questions are
2) i would really like to install a hard drive but what exactlly do i need? i looked up 8bit IDE controllers on ebay but they seem to be unreasonably pricey. what would be a cheap internal HDD solution?
thanks!
Click to expand...

You might want to also consider a SCSI controller, which is compatible with a wider range of drives than an 8-bit IDE card. I've got one in my 1000SX connected to an external SCSI enclosure housing a more modern 68-pin drive. A simple 25pin-to-68pin cable runs from the card's external slot to the external drive enclosure and blammo, 2GB drive working fine (albeit with only 1GB addressable). The SCSI cards may be expensive, but for the money you get a much better chance of getting a compatible drive than with the IDE. Internally, the SCSI card supports a 50-pin drive, which a quick search on eBay gives you a 4GB 50-pin SCSI-2 drive for $25.
 
Check this forum for our own XT-IDE 8-bit controller project. I have one in my SX and it works with absolutely no problems. Also, I have a Trantor T130B SCSI w/Maxtor 7245SR (245 MB) HD. Depending on how patient you are, finding a reasonably priced 50-pin SCSI can be trying. I paid @ $10.00 way back when, but a quick check shows the same HD now goes for $95-$195 (I'm sure there are cheaper ones out there). I would strongly recommend going the XT-IDE route. Also, I would recommend going with the V-20-10 and running MS-DOS 6.2. With 8-256 X 1 DRAM chips you can increase your base memory fron 384K to 640K (be sure to remove jumper E1-E2). BTW my SX is now 25 years old and keeps right on ticking. There's plently of help for your project here, so don't be afraid to ask. Good luck!


 
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thanks Agent and everyone else,

ok, well so far. i have to admit although i have some older pc's from the early 80's and late 70's most of my knowledge lies with the 386/486 era and up so sorry if these sound like amatureish questions.

1) i'll be reciveing an 8 bit juko labs d-16x at/xt hdd controller soon in the hopes of installing a hard drive in the tandy. i'm completly unfamiliar with older hdds. or formats older then IDE. what is exactlly an xt/at hard drive? the oldest loose drives i have sitting around ar western digital 200mb and 500mb AT intelligent hdds. will these work with that controller possibly?

2) i have a sound blaster 2.0 i would also like to install for games that do not use tandy sound or for digital sounds fx. will this interfere with the tandy sound and cause freezeing?

3) not to terribly familiar with disk drives before 1.44mb and 1.2mb drives. im assuming the stock drive in this tandy is a 360kb drive. how do i get files (like drivers) or other things on there from newer pcs with internet access? can i format a 5 1/4 floppy in my 1.2mb drive on my 486 to be read by the drive? would i be better off installing a 720k drive in the tandy and if so can i format disks on my 1.44mb drive to be readable on a 720k drive?
 
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Do not confuse Tandy's "SmartDrive" IDE-XT drives and controllers with the "XT-IDE" controller being discussed in this forum.

True IDE-XT drives were sold by Seagate, Western Digital, and MiniScribe in 20 and 40 MB capacities, and were designed to work with special proprietary 8-bit ISA controllers. Tandy adopted this system, named it "SmartDrive", and offered it as an 8-bit ISA "hard-card" for the older Tandy 1000 series and PC/XT compatibles (overpriced example here). They also built the SmartDrive interface into the motherboard of the Tandy 1000RL, 1000RLX, 1000TL/2, and 1000TL/3. These drives and controllers are not compatible with the modern IDE-AT (ATA) standard, except for the Seagate ST-351A/X drive, which can be jumpered to operate in either IDE-XT or IDE-AT (ATA) mode.

The "XT-IDE" controller talked about on this forum is actually not IDE-XT at all, but rather an IDE-AT / ATA controller designed to plug into an 8-bit ISA bus in an XT-class machine. Therefore, whatever documentation you may come across concerning Tandy 1000 computers and Tandy's own IDE-XT SmartDrives does not apply to this "XT-IDE" controller. This new "XT-IDE" controller (what I would rather call "XT-ATA") does, however, does allow you to use virtually any run-of-the-mill IDE / EIDE / ATA / PATA hard drive, which are plentiful and cheap, and most of which are far faster and have far greater storage capacity than a lowly 7.16 MHz 8088 could ever fully take advantage of.
 
vwestlife said:
Do not confuse Tandy's "SmartDrive" IDE-XT drives and controllers with the "XT-IDE" controller being discussed in this forum.

True IDE-XT drives were sold by Seagate, Western Digital, and MiniScribe in 20 and 40 MB capacities, and were designed to work with special proprietary 8-bit ISA controllers. Tandy adopted this system, named it "SmartDrive", and offered it as an 8-bit ISA "hard-card" for the older Tandy 1000 series and PC/XT compatibles (overpriced example here). They also built the SmartDrive interface into the motherboard of the Tandy 1000RL, 1000RLX, 1000TL/2, and 1000TL/3. These drives and controllers are not compatible with the modern IDE-AT (ATA) standard, except for the Seagate ST-351A/X drive, which can be jumpered to operate in either IDE-XT or IDE-AT (ATA) mode.

The "XT-IDE" controller talked about on this forum is actually not IDE-XT at all, but rather an IDE-AT / ATA controller designed to plug into an 8-bit ISA bus in an XT-class machine. Therefore, whatever documentation you may come across concerning Tandy 1000 computers and Tandy's own IDE-XT SmartDrives does not apply to this "XT-IDE" controller. This new "XT-IDE" controller (what I would rather call "XT-ATA") does, however, does allow you to use virtually any run-of-the-mill IDE / EIDE / ATA / PATA hard drive, which are plentiful and cheap, and most of which are far faster and have far greater storage capacity than a lowly 7.16 MHz 8088 could ever fully take advantage of.
Click to expand...

That is an excellent summary of the differences between the two, but I think that the term "controller" is not the proper term. Interface is a better term, since any IDE pin connector is essentially a reduced version of an ISA slot. That it contains a BIOS extension does not make it a controller. IDE drives have the controller on the drive, whereas the older MFM/RLL drives had it on the expansion card. This is why a generic AT IDE board can be very short and simple, even the XT-IDE board uses standard LS logic.

To answer this guy's other questions :

Your Sound Blaster 2.0 and your Tandy 1000 SX will work without freezing, its the TL/SL/RL lines that you need to worry about. In those systems, the use of DMA1 by both the Sound Blaster and the Tandy DAC will cause freezing, and neither can be told to use DMA3.

The stock drive in your 1000SX is a 360KB drive. 1.2MB drives will not work unless you install an ISA HD floppy controller that will allow you to use them. Install a 720KB or 1.44MB drive and use the disks at 720KB capacity.
 
Great Hierophant said:
That is an excellent summary of the differences between the two, but I think that the term "controller" is not the proper term. Interface is a better term, since any IDE pin connector is essentially a reduced version of an ISA slot. That it contains a BIOS extension does not make it a controller. IDE drives have the controller on the drive, whereas the older MFM/RLL drives had it on the expansion card. This is why a generic AT IDE board can be very short and simple, even the XT-IDE board uses standard LS logic.
Click to expand...

Most people refer to a card that you plug into a bus to control a device as a controller. The fact that the controller is relatively "thin" because the device is fairly intelligent is interesting, but overly pedantic for most people.


Mike
 
so does that mean even with the 8bit xt/at card i won't be able to use a ide drive? i did try installing the card and hooked up an western digital 2559.8mb hdd (smallest uninstalled drive i own.) and it spins up and you can hear it makeing noises. on my crenn i have the "640k ram detected screen" then all of the sudden the screen starts rolling vertically and the message "setup hard disk type .able scratched" is displayed while rolling continues. after a few seconds the normal insert disk screen shows but untill you acually load up dos the rolling continues. i tried running the debug command like the manual for the card says but i get an "unknown command" error.

seems like the tandy is at least seeing the hdd to some extent. i know an XT-IDE would be far easier and i plan on buying a few in the future but with money and everything it would be nice if its possible to get the hdd running under my current hardware.
 
oblivion said:
so does that mean even with the 8bit xt/at card i won't be able to use a ide drive?
Click to expand...
Can you identify exactly which make and model the card is? Tandy sold either Seagate or Western Digital cards with their IDE-XT "SmartDrive" kits, but according to the Tandy 1000 FAQ, they also sold the Silicon Valley ADP50T, which is an 8-bit ISA card capable of using IDE-AT / ATA drives on an XT-class machine (such as the 1000SX).
 
vwestlife said:
Can you identify exactly which make and model the card is? Tandy sold either Seagate or Western Digital cards with their IDE-XT "SmartDrive" kits, but according to the Tandy 1000 FAQ, they also sold the Silicon Valley ADP50T, which is an 8-bit ISA card capable of using IDE-AT / ATA drives on an XT-class machine (such as the 1000SX).
Click to expand...

He wrote earlier it was a Juko D16-X: http://th99.dyndns.org/c/I-L/20274.htm

It is unlikely the board will work with a drive over 540MB.
 
Great Hierophant said:
You mean 504MB I assume.
Click to expand...
528,482,304 bytes, to be exact -- that's either 504 or 528 MB, depending on whether you count one kilobyte as 1024 bytes or 1000 bytes, respectively.

But most hard drives which were sold around the time that 1024-cylinder limit became a major issue were marketed as either 540 or 560 MB. If you had a fancy new BIOS with LBA, you got to use those few extra megabytes. If you had an old BIOS, you didn't, but were probably still happy, because 528 MB was still more than enough storage space at the time, before Windows 95 bloatware took over.
 
to be honest i'd be happy with 10mb. i just want a hdd for the convience and to create less wear on the FDD to extrend life on it. really just need enough space for dos and a few games. I just figured i could use a newer large drive and it would end up seeing it as a smaller drive. i do that with my 486 era machines all the time, sure its a waste of hard drive space but at least the drive is newer and less prone to fail. id buy a smaller drive off ebay but these prices there are outragous

i did just have a thought. i have a hdd in my tandy 2000 that i don't use, i assume it would be compatible.
 
oblivion said:
i did just have a thought. i have a hdd in my tandy 2000 that i don't use, i assume it would be compatible.
Click to expand...
The original Tandy 2000 HD hard drive is a full-height, 10 megabyte MFM monster, so it wouldn't even fit into a 1000SX.

If it's a newer or replacement drive it might be half-height, and thus would fit in the 1000 (sacrificing one of the floppy drive bays), but you'd need an MFM controller in order to use it.
 
I had a 30mb hardcard (hard drive on a controller card) for my 1000sx that worked like a dream. I believe it was an RLL, no matter, came with it's own controller.
Seen one fairly recently on ebay, not cheap though!
 
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