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DOS users can now access AEIN

Regrettably, the AEIN doesn't support CGA or Hercules. DeskMate does, but some DM programs don't support all of its video modes. CGA monitors can be used, but only with a Tandy 1000 or an EGA card.

The charm of AEIN is that it is targeted for low-resource hardware. It would be a shame if it couldn't run in CGA 640x200 mode or Hercules 720x348 mode. Those drivers exist, they just weren't included with the DOS distribution -- is it possible to add them? Or does AEIN require 16 colors?

Are you the author of the DeskMate client? You wrote as if you weren't ("some DM programs don't support all of its video modes").
 
I wonder what would happen if you used a full Tandy DeskMate 3.x, 3.05 for example, and the AEIN application? Tandy DeskMate 3.05 supports every type of graphics display.
 
Maybe if the code for the client or at least an explanation of it's protocol were published, we could make better clients for it. More eyeballs on target as it were.
 
Sorry, but there's only so much time I can put into this. Testing under CGA was unsuccessful; anyway, the AEIN uses four colors at a time (at 640x200). The DM version also requires TGA/EGA/VGA.

The AEIN certainly supports older computers; here are a couple of examples:

1. 1986 Tandy 1000 SX 8088 with 640k RAM (uses 32 watts average + monitor)
2. 1992 Compaq Elite 486SX laptop (uses 13W including screen and hard drive)

It even works on floppy-only machines. Most people would also consider the Windows 95 and 98 machines that run the AEIN client to be "older computers."

As for zip files, they save energy because they're quicker to download and upload. This reduces the amount of work hard drives in the server and the PC have to do.

Yes, I am the author. I was making reference to the fact that some other DM programs also don't support all of the included video drivers.
 
I was successful in getting Deskmate 3.05 running on my 8088+CGA machine (was very easy actually, didn't require any installation) but in trying to run AEIN, I get the message that it requires an EGA, TGA, or VGA card and refuses to run.

To the AEIN author: What is the primary reason you are limiting AEIN to those platforms? Is it because AEIN requires 16 colors? (If so, how do you handle Tandys with their 640x200x4-color graphics?)

Edit: I posted this after your post, sorry for the redundant info. I would still like you to allow your client to just "try" to work regardless of adapter -- it could still be quite useful on 2-color systems.
 
I'm not much concerned about the "energy saving", but rebooting the computer every time one wants to run the program seems to be counter productive in that regard. Also, since I don't normally reboot, the idea of a program that I can only use once, is problematic. I'm mentioning this because the OP didn't address it as problem adequately, and I personally think it is important. :)

AEIN said:
It's difficult to run the program twice without rebooting. You might be able to do this by making two copies of the EXE file.

Two copies? I've tried various things like using a fresh unzip, but that's not doing the trick. How do you do it?
 
The rebooting issue has been a problem with the DOS and DM versions for a long time; nothing seems to fix it. It's less of a problem if you use the DeskMate version, as it allows task-switching. I don't really mind rebooting unless I'm using a Windows machine that takes five minutes...

To create two copies, copy DOSAEIN.EXE to DOSAEIN2.EXE (or DMAEIN.PDM to DMAEIN2.PDM under DeskMate). Run the 2nd copy the second time. This seems to work in DeskMate on some PCs; I haven't tried it under DOS. The second time, it always crashes upon logging in (the first communication), so it's probably related to running a packet driver under the DM interface.

It wouldn't look as good in two colors, but I had hoped to let people run it that way under CGA. However, it froze up if the CGA driver was used; I will have to look into it again some time... I don't have any PCs w\ monochrome or Hercules for testing. BTW, the bitmap photos look a lot better at 640x350 or 640x480.
 
I'm not much concerned about the "energy saving", but rebooting the computer every time one wants to run the program seems to be counter productive in that regard. Also, since I don't normally reboot, the idea of a program that I can only use once, is problematic. I'm mentioning this because the OP didn't address it as problem adequately, and I personally think it is important. :)

I'm proud to report that all of my TCP/IP applications will run several times in a row without requiring a reboot. ;-0
 
I got the DeskMate version to work (several times, I might add, no idea what Ole's problem is :) ) by installing plain DeskMate 3.05 and then downloading and running the DMAEIN.PDM file, and making sure a simple WATTCP.CFG file was in the same directory (everything was in a DESKMATE directory). The system was an 80286 with VGA running IBM PC DOS 2000. The network card was an Intel Etherexpress 8/16 running in 8-bit mode. I had no issues whatsoever with the client or my hardware or internet connection, so I feel I experienced the best AEIN had to offer. Here are my impressions based on that experience:

AEIN is best compared to an information retrieval service of the 1980s, such as Compuserve or Genie. Because it has rudimentary graphics capability (2-color bitmaps and 16-color line drawing), it is actually more similar to Prodigy. Information is requested by using the interface to read pages, and if a page has what AEIN calls "Related Pages", you can read those as well. Options exist to jump to different pages, enter data, and there is a rudimentary search function. It is probably best described as "Gopher with vector graphics".

Pros:

Very fast! Deskmate's drawing routines are decent, and it's obvious there is very little information being transmitted, so pages pop up as quickly as you'd expect them to (I waited no longer than about a second for a new page). It also appears that files can be locally downloaded, although I did not test this feature. Because each page is small (mostly text), nothing is cached to disk, so disk requirements (beyond that of Deskmate), are minimal.

There are very few vector graphics on the system, but the few that are there are welcome surprises.

Cons:

The interface is pretty bad. Not Deskmate itself, but how AEIN is controlled and operated, especially navigation history. You can go down a path, such as StartPage -> Directory -> Reference -> etc. but the "prev. page" function (which is not tied to a single key, you must use the menu) does not traverse that path going backwards -- it usually goes back a page or maybe two, then stops. You have to then start all over by picking one of the four main pages. Confusing matters is that the same keys for navigation are also used for menus. For example, while "2" on a page means "see related pages", once you hit it you get a menu of pages where 1-9 selects a menu item. Having the same keys ("2") change function within the same context (reading pages) is a UI no-no! I grew frustrated trying to navigate the information on AEIN, to the point where I felt discouraged enough to stop exploration.

There are forums, but no single directory of what forums there are -- you must use the search function to find them (search for "forum"), but since the search is limited to 9 results and there are 9 results returned, you have no idea what forums exist past the 9 returned results.

There is an Encyclopedia, but the only way to read it is to search for a term, and I couldn't find any terms that existed. An Index would have been useful to see what entries existed, instead of guessing.

Other than posting to the forums, no user contribution of data is possible (only the AEIN admin can add new information).

Verdict and Suggestions:

I'm not sure what author's goal was in creating AEIN. When first read about it, I got very excited, as the screenshots of the windows client implied it was a hobby project to recreate the cooler elements of Prodigy as a demonstration of what graphical online hypertext systems looked like before the web existed. However, based on the author's comments, the website, and the data on AEIN itself, I now think that the author believes he is creating a viable alternative to the web, something with very questionable practicality given how pervasive the world wide web is. (I will be referring to the web a lot more below.)

The author likes to explain about how AEIN is very resource-friendly, but the entire purpose and usefulness of the system suffers as a result. If resource usage was the actual goal, I would have liked to see a service where a back-end server acts as a proxy for the actual world wide web -- stripping out graphics and/or dithering them down to 2 colors, compressing the text, etc. -- and the client would be a very thin client that interacted with that proxy. That would give the same user experience and resource usage on very low-end platforms, but with the entire world's collective public information at their fingertips. Also, the author seems to think that what has been asked for (CGA, Hercules) is "too low-end" to be supportable. The whole point of AEIN is low-end! Any 386 or higher can navigate the Web in at least the same presentation as AEIN provides, so there is no point on running AEIN on anything higher than a 386 with VGA. AEIN needs to embrace its only viable target market -- 286s and lower, VGA and lower (everything lower, including text mode!). An 8088 with CGA cannot practically retrieve hypertext mixed with graphics, so AEIN has an opening here if it wants to gain "hobby street cred".

The DOS client appears to have been developed in a vacuum. Since the days of Mosaic in 1993, navigation history was automatically kept track of, and a single key/button traversed that history backwards, page by page, until you were back at the beginning (and a "forward" key/button also existed). Easily navigating the information on AEIN is absolutely a requirement moving forward if the author expects AEIN to be taken seriously. There is no shame in copying traditional hypertext system interfaces -- they work for a reason! I recommend that the author redesign how AEIN's navigation works, and how links/pages/branches are presented.

Users must be able to contribute to the system in order for it to grow and for them to gain/retain interest. To that end, the spec on how to create and format graphics and text should be published. If no such spec exists, the source code for the various clients should be made open.
 
Very nice and thorough review. I agree that "low end" needs to be embraced. I'm a big fan of minimal computing, but if I need less than minimal equipment then that concept looses traction and I might as well take advantage of what the equipment can do.

I got the DeskMate version to work (several times, I might add, no idea what Ole's problem is :) )

Interesting that you didn't see that. The author seems to acknowledge the problem too. I just rebooted and tried again to make sure that I was not making any mistake. Exactly the same result.

I unzip, add my standard wattcp.cfg to the directory, and put "dmconfig=drive" in my environment. Then run the program and log in. Works fine. Log out. Exit program. Run again. log in, and it crashes to the prompt.

It's probably significant that the program actually runs, but that the login makes it crash.

mbbrutman said:
I'm proud to report that all of my TCP/IP applications will run several times in a row without requiring a reboot. ;-0

I really like that about them. :)
 
I would still like to know what AEIN uses for a backend server. If it is something that can be hosted and replicated amongst several people, then it has a chance to survive. But if it is just one machine in a basement, it will last only as long as the person who owns the basement doesn't get bored.

And if we are really targeting old machines, then CGA support is a must. Especially if most of the content is just text.

Plausible alternatives? Gopher has hyperlinking and the content parsing is dependent on the client - if you have a client that runs on your hardware, then you can fetch whatever is being served. Gopher also has the advantage of running on nearly anything, including low-spec machines not served by AEIN. Another alternative - a telnet BBS. You would lose the graphics but the ability to run with any telnet client more than makes up for that.


Mike
 
The author likes to explain about how AEIN is very resource-friendly, but the entire purpose and usefulness of the system suffers as a result. If resource usage was the actual goal, I would have liked to see a service where a back-end server acts as a proxy for the actual world wide web -- stripping out graphics and/or dithering them down to 2 colors, compressing the text, etc. -- and the client would be a very thin client that interacted with that proxy. That would give the same user experience and resource usage on very low-end platforms, but with the entire world's collective public information at their fingertips. Also, the author seems to think that what has been asked for (CGA, Hercules) is "too low-end" to be supportable. The whole point of AEIN is low-end! Any 386 or higher can navigate the Web in at least the same presentation as AEIN provides, so there is no point on running AEIN on anything higher than a 386 with VGA. AEIN needs to embrace its only viable target market -- 286s and lower, VGA and lower (everything lower, including text mode!). An 8088 with CGA cannot practically retrieve hypertext mixed with graphics, so AEIN has an opening here if it wants to gain "hobby street cred".

As usual Jim, you have touched the point with a needle, this is what the people really want. A browser that can display text as presented in a modern web browser in the approximately correct format. A browser that supports sufficient standards that will let you enter user names, passwords, fill in forms and allow forums to function. Optional graphics support.
 
Thanks for your feedback. A few minor corrections:

1. The "Previous" function can also be accessed by pressing the left arrow key or clicking the left arrow image in the right corner.
2. Number-driven related pages and menus both work by changing the current page (just as some webpages use links as menus).
3. Members can directly contribute to the store price database and the ratings database as well. They can manually submit files.
4. The rebooting issue is more of a problem with some computers or packet drivers than others.

Releasing the source code or page specifications would compromise security with no guaranteed benefit.

I think some of the AEIN's advantages are being overlooked. For example, I just typed a long reply on this forum and forgot to copy it. The forum timed out and it was lost. On the AEIN, input forms keep the user's text until it is successfully submitted.

There are no messages telling you that you need "plug-ins" or a newer browser. Users don't have to worry about pages with viruses embedded in them. The AEIN also makes it very easy to check the copyright status of individual pages.

I have to say it looks and works far better than the Web on anything less than a Pentium II with SVGA. Visit any webpage in 4 or 16 colors: it will look horrible. Try accessing the Web with a 386 and listen to the hard drive churn as you go from one unusable website to another.

The AEIN is a free service with no advertising. The client software does everything that it can under the memory limitations of DeskMate. Some people are satisfied with the way it is, and so am I.
 
I'd really like to know what you are using for a backend server. Is it a Unix machine? Another DOS machine? Can it be replicated so that there is more than one server that shares common data? I'm sorry to nag, but this is the third time I'm asking this - it is just out of curiosity.

Releasing the source code and page specifications should not compromise security:

  • If the server is not protecting itself against bad or malicious input, then you have already compromised security. Buffer overflows come to mind. Mal-formed input that also breaks input parsing on the server side is another potential problem.
  • If you are sending passwords in the clear then you have already compromised security.

Linux does just fine with open source and security. Remember, the key to security is not to protect the details of the code, but ultimately to protect the data. With a slightly encrypted password you can slow down any potential attacker. Opening the source code and specifications means that others will be able to see the weaknesses, but if you are trying to protect the service by using "security through obscurity" then all is already lost.

Any program that causes or requires a reboot between consecutive executions is broken - it's leaving the machine in a bad state when it exits. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is what it is. In my earliest work with mTCP if I was not careful with shutting down the packet driver and restoring interrupt vectors that I had modified then I would leave the machine in an unstable state, causing similar problems. If you look at the mTCP source code you will see that there is a lot of code devoted to making sure that the program shuts down, and shuts down fully and correctly. I can help you with this problem - WATTCP is going to be very similar.

I detect that you are getting slightly sensitive to the (constructive) criticism being offered in this thread. Some things to keep in mind:

  • People are pointing out that you are cutting off a large swath of machines by not having any support for CGA or monochrome adapters. It doesn't make much sense considering how close this software is to being able to run on these machines. A pure MDA system is going to be limited to text only, but Hercules systems can do graphics, as can the CGA machines. Cutting them off even from the text part of the service makes little sense.
  • Some of us here are programmers too. Trixter has done quite a bit of high performance programming on low-spec machines. I'm the author of the mTCP TCP/IP stack and related programs. Getting some advice from us is not going to be a badge of shame. ;-)
  • People are rightfully pointing out the limitations in the content. If you want to make this compelling then you are going to need to find a way to leverage existing content from the rest of the universe (instead of creating your own), or turn this into a more community based project where your users contribute the content.
  • People are pointing out flaws in the user interface. I think my code and user interfaces are perfect too, but if enough people tell me otherwise then I address their concerns. That keeps my users happy even if I don't understand why.

What you are trying to do here can blossom into a really neat project - an alternative internet for low spec machines. Unlike the current internet which is based on open standards and encourages multiple implementations, you are doing a tightly coupled server/client software pair. That's fine for low-spec machines and it ensures a good client experience. But only for the clients that are allowed to participate. If there is no source code to look at or specification, then the client program will only be as good as your time and skills will allow it. And all of this discussion is based on the client; we have no idea of what the server side looks like yet.
 
Once again, you are making assumptions. The AEIN encrypts usernames and passwords when transmitting them. It also encrypts the password saved to disk. Many other security precautions have been taken, such as limiting forum posts to once per 30 seconds and stripping out various characters. When you reveal the source code, it shows how the security measures work and compromises them.

It is run on a Linux server owned by a hosting provider. The pages use plain text and/or PHP with a header containing various codes.

I have already responded to plenty of suggestions from users and potential users, including various improvements to the interface in recent versions. People wanted a DOS version, so I put in hours of work creating a separate DOS client and instructions. What is the response from this forum? A barrage of new demands and criticism.
 
I'm sorry you feel that way; my comments were meant as constructive, not demands. You need to view these posts as feedback, and not attacks.

We actually would like to see an "alternative internet for low-resource machines" become usable and widely accepted, because it is a neat and fun addition to our hobby. We have no vested interest in seeing it die.
 
1. The "Previous" function can also be accessed by pressing the left arrow key or clicking the left arrow image in the right corner.

Agreed, and I found that out, but when I start at STARTPG and navigate several levels down, the left arrow key doesn't take me all the way back to STARTPG. It seemed that the hierarchy got "reset" as you navigate.

Releasing the source code or page specifications would compromise security with no guaranteed benefit.

"Security through obscurity" is not security. Encryption of passwords and submitted information is excellent, as you've mentioned.
 
In the absence of information people will make assumptions. Especially when such information is asked for several times and ignored.

If the critical data is encrypted then there is no security problem. But the premise that not telling people what you protect against makes it more secure is false. Open source systems can be *very* secure because so many more eyes are looking at them.

If you ask for feedback, sometimes you are going to hear things that you don't like. It is your call to put in whatever effort you want to. But if you are looking for more users, then you need to be able to accept feedback and act on it better than this ... You are being offered good constructive feedback and even help.
 
I appreciate that Trixter and a few others took the time to try the service and evaluate its pros and cons. However, I dislike it when people who have never used the AEIN criticize the service based upon false assumptions and the speculation of other individuals.

I had no problem with listening to users' feedback until some people started talking about "dubious claims" and making exaggerated comments about the AEIN not working on "older computers" or the need to "tear apart" a computer to add an EGA or VGA card.

Anyone who truly wants to benefit the AEIN concept is welcome to sign up for an account and begin using the service. If active members truly want something, it becomes a priority. Everyone else can stay on this forum, waiting for something perfect to materialize...

Please contact me directly with any further questions. Thank you.
 
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