• Please review our updated Terms and Rules here

New Production S-100 Systen Enclosures?

M

MicrocomputerSolutions

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Messages
563
If I could make an agreement with a enclosure company to make a limited run of S-100 System Enclosures with power supplies, what features would you consider to be the most important to you, and how much would you be willing to pay?

Number of motherboard slots?

How tall should the enclosure be? I believe that the IEEE-696 Spec allows for extra tall boards, should the Enclosure be built so extra tall boards can stay inside when the cover is installed?

Cooling, how many cooling fans should be installed, and where should they be pointed?

How about auxilary ac sockets on the rear? Switched or unswitched? How many?

What color? Undoubtedly we woul be limited to having all the enclosures purchased painted the same color or colors.

Should the System Enclosure house 5.25" minifloppy drive/s and/or 8" floppy drives, and/or internal 5.25" or 3.5" hard drive bays also? If so, how many?

If you want the drives to be housed in a separate Enclosure, what drive bays would you need, and how many?

How much would you be willing to pay? While the number of units purchased may affect the per unit price, what's your ceiling with the features you can't live without? In a Group Buyer Situation, you would be required to put some of the money or all of the money down upfront to secure the number of units that you want.

Do you have a time frame for a future purchase?
 
Last edited:
I probably could not afford the shipping cost to the U.K, however,

This is one of those "how long is a piece of string" questions,

Will it have, or be possible to install some sort of front panel, I think the best case with front panel is the Ithaca Intersystems DPS-1, otherwise a big box without front panel will look rather plain and maybe ugly,

What length of motherboard could be fitted, could it come with a 22 slot motherboard already installed?

The box should include two fans with "long" blades (I don't know what they are called"), 1 blowing air into the side of the card frame and the other sucking air out.

Allowance for extra height cards is not needed, especially considering the higher integration of modern components.

Considering the wide range of obsolete disk drive combinations that could be fitted, a separate box for the drives is probably best, although a single 3.5" drive bay would be good and 2 internal 5.25" bays for hard disks although many users might choose CF instead.

For "authenticity" a horizontal box would be preferred but a tower case would take up less space on the desk or floor.
 
Last edited:
I'm going to say no front panel, or provision to install a front panel, I would suspect that the demand would be so low that it wouldn't be fair to saddle everyone else that would want an enclosure with the extra cost for a few people.

While everybody likes the eye catching attention of an operating front panel, not many people are actually hard core enough to want to operate a computer by entering instructions with external switches.

If you want to run a front panel, I'd say wait until later when there's enough people interested with the money to make it happen to duplicate the IMSAI, or manufacture a modenrized IMSAI compatible enclosure.

Probably maximum would be a 20-slot motherboard (smaller motherboards are possible), since the company I'm thinking about trying to work with never manufactured a motherboard larger than 20 slots.

The company I would want to use made a heavy duty cooling option that came with fans along the side of the card cage in addition to the fan or fans at the rear panel.

I was thinking more along the lines of a traditional S-100 System Enclosure, not a modernized System Enclosure, but there's no reason why modern improvements can't be considered, if the group is willing to accept updates, as long as the manufacturer can make provisions for changes. The IEEE-Spec allowed for extra height boards, eliminating the extra height limits the enclosures to standard height boards, and would not allow the use of legacy tall boards.

Compupro offered "tower" cases the last few years, and while I never sold any, and the company I was thinking of approaching didn't manufacture any, it would be up to the group to decide what they wanted to purchase. Unless there's 50-100 people who would be getting these cases, I'm not sure that we would have more than one case style manufactured. Economics dictate that we keep costs as low as possible to make the product as affordable and desirable as possible.

I would plan on having the manufacturer drop ship the finished enclosures to their Buyers to keep the cost of shipping to the minimum by minimizing the number of times the cases are shipped. This would also allow us to take advantage of the Manufacturer's Shipping Contracts to get us lower shipping rates than we would get at the Customer Counter with no contract.
 
Is there a way to keep the enclosure friendly to services like frontpanelexpress.com where customers could upgrade the enclosure later to a fully machined plate? eg. slot two opposing rails for a filler plate that slides in which could be replaced later. Or add screw holes on the corners.
 
The thing that's cool about S-100 boxes is the box itself.
Since this isn't about copying a NorthStar, say, why not come up with a "VCF" enclosure, or something themed ?
Since the geometry of a S-100 backplane and PC are kinda similar (well, let's say I can see a case where either one could fit), maybe we could come up with a generic "VCF" big board enclosure, mounts for a family of switching power supplies ( depending on one's need), fan mounts, etc.
eeguru, if the front plate is in standard 19" RU units, there's all kinds of place to get custom panels from.
patscc
 
patscc said:
The thing that's cool about S-100 boxes is the box itself.
Since this isn't about copying a NorthStar, say, why not come up with a "VCF" enclosure, or something themed ?
Since the geometry of a S-100 backplane and PC are kinda similar (well, let's say I can see a case where either one could fit), maybe we could come up with a generic "VCF" big board enclosure, mounts for a family of switching power supplies ( depending on one's need), fan mounts, etc.
eeguru, if the front plate is in standard 19" RU units, there's all kinds of place to get custom panels from.
patscc
Click to expand...



Sorry, while you could make a big box that a S-100 backplane could fit in, AND a PC motherboard could fit in, the specialized requirements of the card guides, and the power supplies are not compatible.

A one size fits all box would be full of holes (and each hole costs money). It would be silly to manufacture a box that would be compatible to both S-100, and pC systems. Besides, there are already plenty of pc compatible boxes. This project would be about creating an enclosure to house a S-100 motherboard/backplane, and maybe some sort of drives.

Building the ability to use a front panel into say a run of 20 system enclosures so 1, or 2, or 3 guys could run a front panel, someday, is not practical, considering the extra costs involved in designing in the capability. How much extra would you be willing to pay/have everybody pay for a front panel capability ($100-$200) per unit? I for one, would not be interested, because I am not a front panel guy. Besides, where would you get the front panel, and would you be willing to give up system speed to run an old 2mhz IMSAI front panel (if you could find some)?

Personally, I would not be interested in a box housing an S-100 system and 3.5" mini-floppy drives. I don't like having my 8" floppies in the same box as the motherboard either. The box gets too big and heavy if you're going to put in an S-100 motherboard with a decent number of slots. There are very few S-100 floppy disk controller boards that will work with 3.5" 1.44Mb minifloppies (which are what I assume you would want to run), besides the Compupro Disk-1A and Disk-1B. You could run 3.5" 800K drives without many problems, except 3.5" minifloppy drives with four drive select lines (I sold boxes of Teac 3.5" 800K minifloppies for use with Compupro Systems) are more scare, and harder to find then 8" DSDD floppy drives.

It would make more sense to me to make a separate drive enclosure with drive bays 8" floppy size, and then make adapter brackets which would allow mounting smaller drives within the larger drive bays. This is what Compupro did, and this makes the drive enclosures easier to build, since the bulk of the sheet metal for all the drive enclosures is all the same. System enclosures with 5.25" drive bays are not as bad as system enclosures with 8" drive bays. I could probably go for that.

The point that I'm trying to get across is that I don't want to project to grow so big and so expensive that nobody can afford it. It's going to be hard enough to get enough people to pop for a more basic enclosure, and an enclosure company who is interested in developing the project. This is not the 80s or the early 90s. I can't afford to front the all of the money for the development and production. The people who want these enclosures are going to have to pay upfront at order time, and that means that they will have to be affordable.
 
eeguru said:
Is there a way to keep the enclosure friendly to services like frontpanelexpress.com where customers could upgrade the enclosure later to a fully machined plate? eg. slot two opposing rails for a filler plate that slides in which could be replaced later. Or add screw holes on the corners.
Click to expand...



The company that I have in mind offered custom CNC engraved/machined front panels for their boxes. The price was dependent on the design, and quantity of units ordered, so adding an engraved logo to the front panel costed like ($40-$100) 25 years ago.
 
Hello,

This is only my opinion, but I suggest that you take a look at all the S-100 boards (and backplane) that are available via s100computers.com and specifically take a look at the chassis examples shown at:
http://s100computers.com/My System Index Page.htm

My opinion is that a chassis like that could accommodate almost anything available for S-100, and also could have a few different front panels to handle the bare minimum of switches, or one of the front panels those folks have available.

There's also a Google Group at:
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?fromgroups#!forum/n8vem-s100

I am certain that John and Andrew would both be eager to see a project that would make a chassis and power supply available. I' also certain that there'd be plenty of folks interested in acquiring a modern day S-100 chassis, rather than taking a chance on 25-35 year old stuff.

Thanks for listening...
smp
 
patscc said:
MicrocomputerSolutions said

Are all your cost figures from that era, or are they more recent ?
patscc
Click to expand...


I haven't ordered new aftermarket S-100 enclosures in at least twenty years. Until recently the supply of new and used Compupro System Enclosures and Disk Enclosures that I've maintained since before Compupro went out of business was adequate to cover the demand for new and used components. But now my inventory is just about depleted, and I've had more people inquiring. This is the only way that there are going enough parts to keep assembling systems in the future.
 
I am just getting into the S-100 world myself (starting to put together a couple boards). Acquiring an S-100 enclosure seems to be problematic at this point and I have not found any source for one other than $1000-ish stuff on eBay. I would be very interested in this effort. As long as the enclosure had a power supply and card-cage, the majority of my needs are met. In terms of timing, I am in the market for an enclosure now. I have no idea what a reasonable price for something like this would be, but would not be surprised to spend $200-300.

Would the enclosure be engineered to fit a specific backplane? Or would it be a situation where you would be expected to drill holes as needed to mount your own backplane? Or maybe the mounting holes for S-100 backplanes are standardized?

I personally think the inclusion of 3.5" drive bays would be useful. Not just for 3.5" floppy drives, but because that drive bay form factor is pretty standard and can be used to mount a variety of stuff like CF/SD memory card slots, etc.

As far as I know, the most active community for newer S-100 boards is at www.s100computers.com based on the work that John and Andrew are doing. I assume that the enclosure would be compatible with that work.

I also just became aware of the "front panel mini" project from Rich Cini. I wonder if the enclosure could be generally compatible with the use of a board like that?
 
I am a builder of the N8VEM S100 boards, and have modified an ATX case for use with their 8-slot motherboard. I also modified the power supply by gutting the ATX one, and installing 2 switching supplies, one for +-15V and the other +5V. I have retained the 5.25 and 1 of the 3.5 bays. So, my reason for adding this to your thread? Have you thought about supplying a kit that mods an ATX case to S-100 form factor? Some of the really large ones could handle a motherboard with more slots. Switching power supplies can provide the current necessary more efficently and with less weight and size. The thing I needed most when doing this was the card cage, I ended up making my own.
Just a thought,
Kipp
 
WWarthen said:
I am just getting into the S-100 world myself (starting to put together a couple boards). Acquiring an S-100 enclosure seems to be problematic at this point and I have not found any source for one other than $1000-ish stuff on eBay. I would be very interested in this effort. As long as the enclosure had a power supply and card-cage, the majority of my needs are met. In terms of timing, I am in the market for an enclosure now. I have no idea what a reasonable price for something like this would be, but would not be surprised to spend $200-300.

Would the enclosure be engineered to fit a specific backplane? Or would it be a situation where you would be expected to drill holes as needed to mount your own backplane? Or maybe the mounting holes for S-100 backplanes are standardized?

I personally think the inclusion of 3.5" drive bays would be useful. Not just for 3.5" floppy drives, but because that drive bay form factor is pretty standard and can be used to mount a variety of stuff like CF/SD memory card slots, etc.

As far as I know, the most active community for newer S-100 boards is at www.s100computers.com based on the work that John and Andrew are doing. I assume that the enclosure would be compatible with that work.

I also just became aware of the "front panel mini" project from Rich Cini. I wonder if the enclosure could be generally compatible with the use of a board like that?
Click to expand...



I was planning on a complete, assembled system enclosure with motherboard/backplane and power supply. Not a just a box, or a box with a small motherboard/backplane.

Many boxes were manufactured around a specific motherboard, since mounting differed for different brands of motherboards, and manufacturers of enclosures. Boxes also differed in construction when a front panel was optional. Designing a box for front panel use would add a significant amount of cost to the enclosure, and the front slot on the motherboard is generally spaced farther away, than the front slot on a motherboard without a front panel. Again, adding significant cost to the motherboard.

Today's low cost, imported PC enclosures are not made to the same quality standards, or rugged construction standards of yesterday's S-100 enclosures. Most PC enclosures are of what I call "noodle construction" not ridgid enough to be picked up from all directions without flexing and sagging.

I would expect a complete system quality heavy enclosure with motherboard/backplane (20-slot) and power supply (switcher or linear) to cost, at least a minimum $500-$600 in quantity (hopefully the minimum order quantity would be 20 or less), without front panel provision, or other costly options like mounting provisions for multiple types of motherboards, or a custom machined logo/faceplate as someone has suggested (if I can get a manufacturer to agree to make them at all). The kind of system enclosure that I'm thinking about trying to have built used to cost sell for about $400 at one time.

I suppose we could consider contracting an enclosure built with cardcage/cardguides only, and leave the selection of the motherboard, designing and building of the mountings for the motherboard to the Owner, along with the selection of a power supply, and the wiring for the enclosure to the Owner, but I fear that would only lead to a another bunch of incompleted/unbuilt collections of sheet metal lying around. Like so many of the partial IMSAI and Altairs enclosures and systems that are floating around.
 
kyeakel said:
I am a builder of the N8VEM S100 boards, and have modified an ATX case for use with their 8-slot motherboard. I also modified the power supply by gutting the ATX one, and installing 2 switching supplies, one for +-15V and the other +5V. I have retained the 5.25 and 1 of the 3.5 bays. So, my reason for adding this to your thread? Have you thought about supplying a kit that mods an ATX case to S-100 form factor? Some of the really large ones could handle a motherboard with more slots. Switching power supplies can provide the current necessary more efficently and with less weight and size. The thing I needed most when doing this was the card cage, I ended up making my own.
Just a thought,
Kipp
Click to expand...


The problem that I see with modifying a PC compatible case is that they are not the same quality/construction as a S-100 enclosure. Construction is too light. And supply will be a problem, foreign case manufacturers seldom make any particular case style for more than a year. All the work to make a particular case compatible with an S-100 system would be throwaway everytime the case manufacturer changes models.

Inexpensive switching power supplies would have the same problem as using a PC compatible case. What are you going to do next year when the power supply/supplies you built into the enclosure is not made anymore?

Old S-100 systems have survived for a reason. The enclosures were built to last, and the linear power supplies were relatively inexpensive, reliable, and easy and inexpensive to repair if necessary. PCs are none of there, and do not age as well as S-100 systems. How many working PCs (that you know of) are more than five years old and are not on their 2nd or 3rd power supply?

Some people have reference the work they're doing over on the S100computers Website. If you read the Thread from the Mod who built his own case, you would see that the enclosure was originally a knock-down prefab, and the Owner reinforced it by wrapping it in another metal shell. That's an example of why a PC case would not be appropriate. I found the part about the power supply interesting, because using a switcher/switchers is a possibility. I have some experience with switchers used in S-100 Systems, since Compupro started using switchers over twenty years ago before they closed down. I saw then, that they are more expensive, and less reliable than linear power supplies. Cost and reliability for switchers have improved since then, and there's no arguing about the better efficiency and lower heat generation.

I tried the link to see about the cost of a big 5V heavy (27A) switcher, but while the link was good, I could not find the power supply used by the Author of the thread. I didn't see any high current 5V switcher listed. Was it discontinued? I don't know, I'm planning on going back to the website, and looking around more.
 
Weren't most big S100 boxes designed along the lines of a 19" EIA rack? My Integrand certainly is and both the MITS and IMSAI were of similar dimensions.

So why not use a 4U/5U rackmount chassis? Most are very far from being "lightweight". If you don't like the mounting "ears" some (such as Antec) allow for their removal.
 
Chuck(G) said:
Weren't most big S100 boxes designed along the lines of a 19" EIA rack? My Integrand certainly is and both the MITS and IMSAI were of similar dimensions.

So why not use a 4U/5U rackmount chassis? Most are very far from being "lightweight". If you don't like the mounting "ears" some (such as Antec) allow for their removal.
Click to expand...



I know that the Compupro System Enclosure was capable of working in a rackmount or desktop configuration. The difference was the top cover, front panel, rubber feet, and slides with mounting brackets. I converted Compupro desktops to rackmounts, and rackmounts to desktops in the past for clients, it was a simple bolt-on process.

Looking at rackmount enclosures, their construction, and their manufacturers is a good idea. Maybe the manufacturers also offer desktops, or the parts to convert rackmounts to desktops. Or, if the construction/design is compatible, new front plates and top covers could be made, costs offset by the savings from buying COTS (commercial off the shelf) rackmount enclosures.
 
MicrocomputerSolutions said:
I was planning on a complete, assembled system enclosure with motherboard/backplane and power supply. Not a just a box, or a box with a small motherboard/backplane.

Many boxes were manufactured around a specific motherboard, since mounting differed for different brands of motherboards, and manufacturers of enclosures. Boxes also differed in construction when a front panel was optional. Designing a box for front panel use would add a significant amount of cost to the enclosure, and the front slot on the motherboard is generally spaced farther away, than the front slot on a motherboard without a front panel. Again, adding significant cost to the motherboard.

Today's low cost, imported PC enclosures are not made to the same quality standards, or rugged construction standards of yesterday's S-100 enclosures. Most PC enclosures are of what I call "noodle construction" not ridgid enough to be picked up from all directions without flexing and sagging.

I would expect a complete system quality heavy enclosure with motherboard/backplane (20-slot) and power supply (switcher or linear) to cost, at least a minimum $500-$600 in quantity (hopefully the minimum order quantity would be 20 or less), without front panel provision, or other costly options like mounting provisions for multiple types of motherboards, or a custom machined logo/faceplate as someone has suggested (if I can get a manufacturer to agree to make them at all). The kind of system enclosure that I'm thinking about trying to have built used to cost sell for about $400 at one time.

I suppose we could consider contracting an enclosure built with cardcage/cardguides only, and leave the selection of the motherboard, designing and building of the mountings for the motherboard to the Owner, along with the selection of a power supply, and the wiring for the enclosure to the Owner, but I fear that would only lead to a another bunch of incompleted/unbuilt collections of sheet metal lying around. Like so many of the partial IMSAI and Altairs enclosures and systems that are floating around.
Click to expand...

OK, that makes sense to me. Even at $500-600, I am definitely interested.

Thanks.
 
I learned that the company/companies that manufactured the CVT (constant voltage transformers) used in Compupro System Enclosure linear power supplies seems to have gone out of business. I was hoping to get some new CVT transformers to build new power supplies for a couple of new Compupro System Enclosures that I robbed the power supplies out of to take care of a couple of service customers. I guess that was a bad idea.

A secondary plan was to keep some onhand for repairs, and to build up new reproduction Compupro S-100 linear power supplies.

Now, I will have to find a competent transformer manufacturer and see if the Compupro System power supply transformer can be duplicated/reproduced.

I also found out that Integrand Research no-longer exists. Another company close to their old location is still making some of the Integrand rackmount PC compatible enclosures. I have talked to someone from this other company, and they say they would be willing to work on a custom enclosure. We have not talked price yet (hard to, since we haven't spec'cd the enclosure yet). They say they may have the specs for Integrand Products that they are not actively marketing. I'm going to have to speak to one of their packaging engineers to see if the Integrand Research S-100 drawings and specs still exist.
 
It certainly wouldn't be the cheapest option available, but a FPexpress option might be worth looking into since it could be a cookie cutter design anyone can drop in a shopping basket and press buy now. And they could also customize it based on their whims. I was thinking one of their housing profile enclosures with 4mm think aluminum sides and bottom - leaving the front, back, and top between 2-4 mm think. Mill 2mm square groves in the side panels to serve as board guides and holes in the bottom for back-plane standoffs. Then put a ATX, Flex ATM, or PicoPSU in the back to power it. May have to add a small board with an inverting supply for any (-) rails or re-design a backplane with that and a ATX connector. Add a 2mm plexiglass top, some venting holes and fan mounts to either the front, back, or top and done.

Thoughts?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top