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VOIP/Dialup emulation

josephdaniel

Experienced Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2012
Messages
317
Location
Florence, Texas, United States
Is there any way to emulate a dialup connection like this?

old computer with modem--> modern computer with modem and Ethernet--> the internet
I thought that if you could get VOIP service running on a computer that would *simulate* a phone line with a high enough bit-rate that you could do it without the modem(s) complaining too much. I only ask because I seem to have acquired 5 or six modems by osmosis and I want to put them to work;) and if it was just a VOIP service or some thing that installs on the computer that would be even better because I have some antique phones here that have been in hibernation for a few years since we dropped our phone line I figured if I got something working I could use the computer to dial out the DTMF tones since must VOIP services don't support pulse dialing :cool:
 
I know about transferring files between two modems but what I am trying to do is basically what this guy did here. I'm still not entirely shure how he did what he did but I think I have a grasp on it
http://rmac.d-dial.com/pics/
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?36551-What-*I*-do-with-them
I was hoping there might be a software solution to my problem where I could install it on a system and it would basically turn the computer into a high quality VOIP box. I think VOIP could work if there was a was a way to get those VOIP boxes to work at a higher bit-rate at the expense of bandwidth though.
 
Depends on the speed of the modems, and whether or not they support error correction. Even more than that, it depends on the devices you're using, the "loss plan", the quality of the telephone interfaces (the hybrids) of the modems, how good their discriminator circuits are, the links between, the routers and latency and congestion on the network between the devices.

Generally speaking, many modems of 2400 and all modems faster support error correction. The "sweet spot" for a reliable modem connection over VOIP is between 2400-9600 with EC. 1200 and 2400 w/o EC are just about impossible, and 300 is problematic.

Before getting too deep into this, let me lay out a few facts:

A few basic facts about modems:
1) Different modems of different speeds and different "Modernness" use different types of modulation to carry the bits.
2) Almost all common types of modem modulations require constant contact, otherwise, "NO CARRIER" and you're disconnected.
3) The types of modems most of us are used to using are ASYNCHRONOUS in nature, meaning there is nothing providing a clock signal to keep both ends in sync with each other.

A few basic facts about the POTS network:
1) POTS is a circuit-switched networking technology, once the channel path is established, that channel is "nailed up" in constant contact with the far end for the duration of the call.
2) POTS links are either analog or digital in nature. Either way, they are still a direct (though buffered at many points along the way) channel from end to end.
3) Even in the case of a Time Division Multiplexed carrier trunk, such as T1 or T3, you effectively have a direct circuit path through the connection. The carrier itself is synchronous in nature, and while there is possibility of error, all timeslots' data arrives in the order expected.

A few basic facts about VOIP:
1) VOIP is packet-switched, with each packet containing a slice of audio
2) Being packet-switched, there is no continuous circuit, there is no synchronous clocking of the time slices.
3) Because the protocol used is UDP, there is no transmission control to ensure that all packets arrive, or even that they arrive in sequence.
4) Because of the nature of the internet, latency of transmission is not entirely predictable, and routing anomalies or other events on the internet can cause packets to arrive out of sequence, get dropped altogether, or have wildly fluctuating latencies.

So... knowing these things, and using 300 baud as an example, lets see what the demodulated bitstream of a quick burst of Bell 103 / 300 Baud Frequency Shift Keying would look like in binary form:

Code:
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001101010011101001011011001000000000000000000000000000
That's basically a pause, with a couple random characters in the middle.

On POTS, this comes through just as you see... but when VOIP acts up, that same sequence may look like:
Code:
000000    000000000000    0000000000000000000 101010010011110011011001000000000000000000000000000

This is a completely different series of bits, even though in this example what we sent was identical. We got a couple dropped packets (so quick it wasn't enough to drop carrier) and we received 2 packets out of sequence.

Now, to compound matters further, the latency delays and/or out-of-sequence packets may not fall directly in synchronicity with the modulation timing, and will cause an impossible change in bitrate that is impossible to recover from, as the receiving modem then thinks it's sync'd to a different time point in the signal, causing ALL data that comes through from that point (at least until the next "big pause") to become total gibberish.

FSK is *very*susceptible to synchronization errors, and as such can be very problematic over such a "lossy" network.

PSK, which is what 1200/2400 use (phase shift keying) actually changes the phase angle of the wave, and can condense multiple bits into a single cycle. At 1200 with no error correction, you end up with a hopeless string of garbage over all but the best of connections. Same for 2400 w/o EC. Then, 2400 with EC, you start to gain some ability to transmit data again, but every time there's a "glitch" the modem has to retrain and try to retransmit the lost data, and will appear to have "locked up" until the error checking mechanism turns out a valid block of data.

As you go up in speed, the modulation changes, and we start seeing things like QAM, TCM, and others. Each of these send more and more bits in the same amount of time, so you actually start getting more and more reliability over VOIP because a single VOIP time slice may contain enough data for a single EC block. Nonetheless, you DO end up getting the same "lock ups" as the EC does its job and continues to retry blocks that didn't come through correctly.

So that brings me to the next piece: Codec.

The codec I typically use is uLaw. uLaw is the same codec that was used on T-carrier channels, 64kbps, 8 bits per sample. It is more than enough to encapsulate all of the analog data that is part of any modulated signal from the types of modems we care about. A more robust codec with more bandwidth isn't necessary, and in fact (due to the greater bandwidth required by the signal, in many cases) could make the issue worse over more distant links. A less robust (more lossy) codec, like some of the cheapo "VOIP in a box" type providers use, things will be far worse because it lacks the resolution to effectively communicate the nuance of more advanced modulations, and may not even get the frequencies "pure" enough on the far end. *shrug*

That also brings us to "loss planning" and hybrids... an imbalanced hybrid (the circuit which takes your 2-wire phone and splits it into a "ear" and "mouth" 4-wire pair) can cause echo on the line. If you put too hot (loud) of a signal into a phone that isn't well engineered or which has a phone or modem with an imbalanced hybrid, that signal will then "echo back" off the remote hybrid, and you'll hear your own voice, delayed echoed, back into your earpiece from the far end. Modems generally do not like this, though better quality, later model modems tend to have echo cancellation built into their hardware. One must "plan the loss" so as to where the transmitted signal is attenuated to an acceptable level on the remote end's VOIP. Worse than that, when dealing with analog conversion to voip, you end up with a connection that looks much like this:

Code:
Originate End Phone/Modem [hybrid] -> [hybrid] Analog Terminal adapter -> network -> voip server -> network -> Analog Terminal Adapter [hybrid] -> [hybrid] Answer End Phone/Modem

So you end up with 4 hybrids on the line instead of 2!!!

So, long story short - If you're doing LOCAL calls, that is, your ATA's are on the local wire with the asterisk server that will switch the call and possibly carry the audio channel, and you don't have a noisy LAN, you can (assuming good loss planning, the right codecs and codec settings) make a station-to-station call inside the house with VOIP and typically get a rather clean connection. But, adding a service that VOIPs across your internet connection to the world at large - that will tend to be problematic, because 9 zillion variables come into play that the modem designers never planned for.

All of my channels here at the house are TDM (T1 carrier into a channel bank that converts them to analog POTS), and I can communicate at any speed, reliably, noise free between any pair of modems. If I use one of my VOIP providers to either take an incoming call, or originate an outgoing call, all bets are off. Some days it will be flawless at any speed, some days it won't work no matter what, most days I can get a passable connection to "Site A", but not to "Site B", and other days I can get good results with "Site B" but not "Site A".

IMO, VOIP is no replacement for POTS - but the average person has become so acclimated to lossy, grainy, noisy cell phone connections, they don't remember what it was like to "Hear a Pin Drop" and are thus more accepting of lossy VOIP call quality as well.

Where your brain smooths over the "glitches", in some cases so much you can't even notice them (they're there, if you look at the waveform level), a modem is far more discerning about accuracy of frequency and timing.

Then, there's the question of rotary dialing - not all VOIP ATA's handle rotary. Some do. Those that do are sometimes hard to identify or find. Those that dont are PLENTIFUL. There are devices that you can get that plug between the phone(modem) and VOIP or POTS jack which take rotary dialing and convert it into DTMF into the forward channel. They're easy to set up, but not inexpensive, usually.

But... if you just want to connect two modems together, and want the simplest method of doing so, there are pre-made devices available that are telephone line emulators, you can often get one that when you pick up the phone on one side, the other side rings immediately, then once the call is established at both ends, it provides the -48vdc talk battery necessary for both ends to communicate with each other.

HTH :)
 
I wonder if you could go low-tech and simply repurpose an old KSU?

Although--and this is what really leaves me scratching my head--modem communication was a terrible experience compared to the connectivity we have today. If you look at any of the old file transfer packages, you'll see code for accommodating line noise and dropped characters.

There was a good reason for that.
 
Chuck - absolutely. There are many folks who use, for example, old Panasonic KSUs specifically for connecting old modems together. I avoided that simply because of the pitfalls of possibly getting the wrong equipment, and having a hard time finding what looked like the right equipment at a good price.

I originally tried to do an all-voip solution for my needs, and switched to TDM because it was more reliable.

Here's a pic of what I get on ProTERM on my IIgs when I call out one voip provider (Google Voice) into another voip provider (IPkall) to connect to RMAC:

oW7w1v7.jpg


This is the exact scenario I described above, 300 bps, FSK, Bell 103 standard, over 64kbps uLaw codec via those providers respective protocols (all UDP based), and the noise that comes from dropped packets, late/out-of-sequence packets.

Calling locally, with TDM/analog connections inside the house:

UXC9te1.jpg


Even local VOIP calls can be problematic, just a little hiccup and you could be re-training, or receiving a long stream of garbage.
 
Even local VOIP calls can be problematic, just a little hiccup and you could be re-training, or receiving a long stream of garbage.
No truer words have been spoken.... I dread having to support the VoIP product that my boss added to our products and services a few years ago. People tend to think that it's just a landline over the internet, and *everything* works the exact same way - except it doesn't.

"I'm having trouble using my security over your telephone system. It worked with Century Link, make it work with YOUR service!"
"Why can't I fax with your shitty digital telephone service? I was faxing back fine as far back as 1985, yet I'm having trouble with your modern network? What's wrong with you people?"

Yeah. Customer support is LOVELY.

(thankfully, I only have to deal with end users when they get tired of my guys and want a manager now.... but yeow! That just means that they're usually already even more pissed off by the time that they get to me than they were when they originally called!)
 
On higher speeds, I suspect that VoIP would be almost worthless. I can't see VoIP preserving phase information that you'd need for say, QAM. But one could argue that if you've got VoIP, why are you trying to use an analog modem?
 
But one could argue that if you've got VoIP, why are you trying to use an analog modem?
Because they obviously have WAY too much time on their hands during summer and I also am looking for a way to hoop up my old phones. I might see if I can get a job or something this summer and I will ask my parents if I can pay to have a land line installed and pay the bill. I rember we had dial up until I was about 7 and we got broadband but I loved listening to the dialup tones through a phone with the microphone removed for some odd reason (am I crazy)
 
On higher speeds, I suspect that VoIP would be almost worthless. I can't see VoIP preserving phase information that you'd need for say, QAM. But one could argue that if you've got VoIP, why are you trying to use an analog modem?

Conventional logic would seem to agree, but reality disagrees.

I've connected 33,600 over voip on numerous occasions, and "as the wind blows" the quality of the call changes, and it will negotiate down to slower speeds.

But the sweet spot for me is usually 2400 w/ ARQ.

Why not use a modem? There are several dial-up-only BBS's out there, and if live in an area where the telco doesn't deliver POTS service anymore (or, not for a reasonable price anymore), why not try to use VOIP? Sometimes it works really well... And, there are some machines that don't directly have a serial port available, but do have an internal modem.

Most of the time, with error correction, it's no worse than an old noisy phone line. My 300 baud experience usually works out about the same as calling from a "bad" switch to another "bad" switch through a noisy tandem with crappy trunk carriers... that is to say, usually too much noise to be usable. But often it's so clear, it's no worse than a busy day on the old analog/electro-mechanical offices.

Even if I'm not going to voip, i.e. I'm going to call a telnet-only retro BBS, I'll fire up an old machine, hook up a modem, dial up my terminal server and telnet out from there. If I call into RMAC or my BBS with old hardware, I direct dial station-to-station inside the house.
 
There are some things that you never ever want to experience again, like kidney stones, a teletype klunking along at 10 CPS or the line noise over a 300 bps modem.

I suppose that at some point "retro" root canals will be all the rage.
 
There are some things that you never ever want to experience again, like kidney stones, a teletype klunking along at 10 CPS or the line noise over a 300 bps modem.

I suppose that at some point "retro" root canals will be all the rage.

I'll pass on the root canals [edit: and kidney stones!]. ;)

I've been online since 1983... like you, I remember all that... I remember being frustrated by those things. But now, I see it as just part of my retrocomputing experience.

The younger crowd here, they never experienced those things. It's likely just as fascinating to them as it once was to us, that you can have a "thing" that makes weird noises into a simple phone line, and data gets transferred.

At least for myself, my career path would have been very different if I hadn't been exposed to modems, bbses, online services, and the internet so long ago. I think that's part of why I enjoy modems so much... :)
 
dialup is very important to history is was a viable way to transmit data on a 19th century network

I dunno, I don't know of anyone doing data transmission via telephone in the 1800's. ;)

Impressive if they did, though!

But yeah, I mean... every aspect of retrocomputing has a little pain to it... I've never been a fan of emulation, so... let's modem! :)
 
I'm not sure if you get what I was saying
What I meant is that it was one generations way of sending data ofer a 19th century network
Hey I don't like emulatiors either unless th real thing is too expensive to get!
 
Data, was, in fact, transmitted over phone lines in the 19th century. Look up "telautograph" and the history of FAX. Older than you think.
Boy, I knew that still using dial-up daily made me an old fogey, but my generation definitely did NOT send data over a 19th century network... ;-)

Although it seems inconceivable to young-'uns these days, modem-to-modem over phone lines is still alive; some clients and I use it daily for remote computing because it is inherently more secure than being connected to the internet. A substantial number of people also still use dial-up internet access (myself included), either by choice or because there is no practical alternative and of course FAXes are also still being sent, so I think it's a little premature to consign modem-over-POTS to dusty history...

There is more to communications between computers than email and Web browsing...

(@OP: I think maybe you meant the 20th century...)
 
It all depends upon what you mean by "data". In my youth, the QA lab, shipping and the line operator exchanged information via telautograph in a steel mill. That, I submit was data--and the telautograph and telephone have a direct tie-in to Elisha Gray. Ticker-tape machines date back tot he 1860s and if stock prices aren't data, I'd like to know what they are.

No fancy carriers or modulation needed, since telephone and short-haul telegraph lines were essentially DC connections between the endpoints.
 
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