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Joining the IBM 5161 Expansion chassis club

1801 is not a hard drive problem; it's because the extender card is not connected to a receiver card. Hard drive errors are 17xx.

Both the extender card and the receiver card can latch the address and data lines. This is used for diagnostic testing during startup. It checks that everything is well with the extender card, and then that everything is well with the receiver card. If the latched data is incorrect when read back through IO calls, then you get one of the 18xx errors.

Also, IBM suggest you set the switches to match the amount of general purpose RAM in the system unit. If you have no RAM in the expansion unit, it's actually a rather good idea to set it to the starting segment of the first memory in the expansion unit. That would often be segment C if you just have a HDD controller in there. The reason for this is that if you have your display adapter in the system unit, and set the extender card switches to the top of RAM as IBM suggests, then it will put in pointless wait-states for any reads/writes to the video memory.
 
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I have never seen that card you sent the picture of. I honestly believe that one is a 3rd party extender for a different maker's expansion unit. In fact it looks like one I've seen on an expansion I saw selling on E-Bay. So, in reality, you only have to look for one type, unless someone can make one for those who have need of one or more extender cards. I am also the one who supplied modem7 with the link to one company who sells replacement cables.

Again, I hope this helps.




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snuci said:
I didn't know there were two models. What I have seen are two different PC extender cards in doing research. Here's one that doesn't look like yours: http://www.schuijl.info/images/ibm516105.jpg. Now I'm wondering if I have to a) find an impossible to find PC extender card and b) make sure they match. Not only do I have to find a needle in a haystack; I need to make sure it's the right color!

I linked to the eBay auction in my first post if you didn't see that (click on the auction id). The serial number is also shown in the auction page and is: 5059089. From he pics, it looks like I have the same receiver card as you do. The site that has a pic of the other PC extender card looks like it has a very similar receiver card. I'm hoping the only difference is a different PC extender card for 5150's and 5160's?

The quest for the elusive PC extender card begins...
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IBM_User said:
ProductAnnouncement_183-28_IBM_5161_PC_Expansion_Unit
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I was very fortunate enough to have made a friend in IBM. She just happens to be an historian and sent me the product notification several months ago. Modem7 posted it on minuszerodegrees.net as soon as I gave it it ti him. I hope everyone like my insignificant contributions. It's just one small way to thank everyone in the forums for their assistance, and guidance.

Aside from a couple of links, and some documentation, I have learned more about the expansion unit than I ever expected when I got my first expansion unit. Since then, I have completed two of these beasties; one for me and one for a local friend. If there are any questions anyone needs answered regarding the 5161 construction, installed peripherals, or configuration, I may be able to answer your questions, and concerns.
 
Quick update. The IBM 5161 expansion unit arrived and it looks just like the pictures in the auction. I have not powered it up yet. The parts IBM 5155 Portable arrived and it, in fact, does have the proper extender card in it. I think I was very fortunate with that but haven't powered that up yet either. I have ordered the 62 pin expansion cable from China and will await that to give it a shot.

Prior to receiving this, I was having some issues getting a Seagate ST-4096 hard drive running in my IBM AT. After much work and using Type 18 instead of Type 19, I got that to go. I was going to use that to fire up the individual hard drives in the expansion unit to see what's on them but now that I have figured out that I can use a standard AT keyboard in the 5155, I'll just "marry" the 5155 to the 5161 when the cable arrives and see what happens.
 
Can you send me your model, and serial numbers please? I'll add you and your expansion unit to the debase I am maintaining for these. As soon as I get my primary computer running again, I'll up date everyone with the new totals.

Thanks for the update.

BB
 
snuci said:
but now that I have figured out that I can use a standard AT keyboard in the 5155.
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Pretty sure you'll need an XT keyboard?
If I remember correctly the 5155 is a 5160 - same motherboard, different packaging/accessories.

On the note of using the expansion unit for testing drives and seeing what's on them - these drives rely on an actual controller to tell them what to do (unlike SCSI or IDE which have the real controller on the drive itself). This means if you change controller (especially across brands) there is a strong chance it wont be able to read whatever drive is connected. It is likely to make lots of seek noises (trying to find it's marbles) and throw a 1701 - requiring a low level format to make the drive usable. If the controller in your expansion unit is original - it will likely only have native support for ST412's - 10Mb formatted.

(Sorry if you were already well aware of this stuff)
 
SpidersWeb said:
Pretty sure you'll need an XT keyboard?
If I remember correctly the 5155 is a 5160 - same motherboard, different packaging/accessories.
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Yes, you're right. I'll have to be mindful of which keyboard I use. I have a model M that might work also.

SpidersWeb said:
On the note of using the expansion unit for testing drives and seeing what's on them - these drives rely on an actual controller to tell them what to do (unlike SCSI or IDE which have the real controller on the drive itself). This means if you change controller (especially across brands) there is a strong chance it wont be able to read whatever drive is connected. It is likely to make lots of seek noises (trying to find it's marbles) and throw a 1701 - requiring a low level format to make the drive usable. If the controller in your expansion unit is original - it will likely only have native support for ST412's - 10Mb formatted.
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This is exactly why I don't want to move the drives or change the environment too much. I'm trying not to introduce too many changes when trying out the expansion unit. Coming from a recycler, there a really good chance the drives are not likely to work and even if they did, there probably won't be anything of interest on them unless it's got some old school games on it ;) Hopefully we'll see soon.
 
That is a good way to look at it, snuci. Try to keep your expansion unit in one configuration, and I mean, only one. The more you play with these things, the more trouble you can get into. Eventually, I know my at least one of my dual full height MFM formatted Control Data hard discs will fail. At that point, I will not sell off, or recycle my 5161. No, I will probably add in a couple of blanking plates, and install one or two CT-CF Lite, or XT-IDE boards to keep my expansion unit functional, but that is a story for another time.

I am curious though snuci, you had mentioned that you got your 5161 in conjunction with an IBM 5155 Portable? I'm seriously interested to see how that works for you. In reality, the 5161Expansion Unit was designed to be used primarily with IBM 5150's, and to a lesser extent, IBM 5160 XT systems. When booting the Portable without the expansion connected, I'm sure you'll get at least one error. Can you reply to this thread with any error codes you receive? Also, if you have any direct questions regarding setting up the system using the expansion, please feel free to contact me.

Again, great find. You got very lucky in that the extender card was included with your purchase. I know of at least half a dozen owners of 5161 Expansion Units, who would give their right eye to get an extender. Far too many have been lost, and, or thrown out over time. And now when a user buys a vintage IBM 5150, or5160, and find this card inside called an extender, they typically do just throw it out, or send it to a recycler. It's a sad thing to be sure, so I keep hoping that someone could have one made, like some people who have developed cards like the XT-IDE, and, XT-CF Lite boards. From what I know, it shouldn't be all that difficult, but the return would have to be worth their time. I don't know anyone who would be willing to develop a replacement for the extender just to sell maybe 10 of these things. Although, if someone were to take on that task, I would do everything to buy 10, just for those people I know outside of VCF, who need one, or more.
 
bettablue said:
I am curious though snuci, you had mentioned that you got your 5161 in conjunction with an IBM 5155 Portable?
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No, they were two separate auctions. I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread but I got the 5161 first and then did some research on the extender card. I then searched all 5150 and 5160 auctions (especially from the same seller) and no luck. Then I found someone who used the 5161 with a 5155 and searched those. That's when I found the card. I tried to just by the card but that didn't work so I made an offer of $50 for the parts grade 5155 and the seller agreed.

bettablue said:
When booting the Portable without the expansion connected, I'm sure you'll get at least one error. Can you reply to this thread with any error codes you receive?
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The IBM 5155 portable auction showed pictures of start-up errors. It showed: 301 and 1801 errors on start up. Makes sense since there's no keyboard and no expansion unit. I haven't tried to boot it yet but confirmed the expansion card is there.

If I have any questions, I'll be sure to ask. Thanks.
 
Well, the cable came today and so I quickly got everything hooked up because of the anticipation. It was finally time to try this out and see if any of it worked.

I first turned on the 5161 expansion unit, waited about 30 second and literally had to check for spin vibration with my hand because the two Seagate ST-412 10MB hard drives didn't make any more sound than the power supply fan did and even the power supply was pretty quiet. I flipped on the 5155 Portable that has the expansion card in it and... 1701 error. That wasn't a very good start. The fan in the 5155 also sounded like it was ready to burn out some bearings so that was the last time I wa able to check audible clues.

I then shut everything down and booted from a floppy. Both drives were unreachable. I then unscrewed the drives and checked if there was any movement in the stepper motors. I was used to some movement on start up with ST-506 drives in Apple Lisa's but these didn't budge. I then flipped drives so D was C and C was D and started everything up and to my surprise, Drive C (the original drive D) had files on it and I could traverse directories and everything. Drive D (the old drive c) still showed no signs of life.

Instead of trying to see what files were on original Drive C, I now needed to try to rescue it. No DOS utilities would see the drive including FDISK. I needed to have the original bad drive C alone so I didn't accidentally FDISK the wrong drive. I removed the terminator from Drive D and put it on Drive C and then booted from a floppy. FDISK would still not work on the drive. I then used Ontrack and it saw the drive where nothing else would. My only choice was to low-level format the drive so I went ahead and did.

After putting everything back, Drive C now boots up and I then proceeded to copy everything from Drive D to Drive C as a test and to back up Drive D since Drive C was empty. Needless to say, everything is fine. Both drives work and they are relatively silent for their vintage. Once in a while I hear a drive sound like it's spinning up and out of control but I'm used to that with the ST-506 drives. It's definitely not as pronounced at the ST-506 is. The first time I heard that noise, I literally ducked out of the way for fear that a platter would spin out of the drive.

The files on the drive are not from IBM. In about 1993, it looked like a student who wrote some college papers on various topics used this expansion unit. There were also some taxes from 1993 (saw TurboTax 93 was installed on it but didn't look at the files). It also had a Games folder with Sesame Street Print software. One would be hard pressed to attribute that to IBM San Jose :)

It looks like someone wiped the C drive with something pretty good (DOS didn't even recognize the drive) but they didn't do Drive D. In any case, I will wipe the files and low level format the D drive just have both drives refreshed. While there are no IBM trade secrets on the drives, I did manage to get an IBM 5161 Expansion unit with two original working drives. I'm quite happy with that.
 
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Awesome they're running again.

I think chances are Drive C just lost it's sector markers. It happens. It's a good idea to perform a low level format once every couple of decades.
Those markers would've been written in the early 80's - and eventually they lose their magnetic strength and need to be rewritten (which is part of what a low level format does).

Yeah the ST412 isn't very exciting noise wise. No real self check either. I was disappointed myself!
 
Congrats!

If you want noisy HDD's, go with the ST-225. Sounds somewhat like an airplane taking off :p
 
My 5161

My 5161

I had to cannibalize a lot of 5161's to get my final one. Here are a few pics. I still don't have an actual IBM cable though. :???:
 

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SteveMarg said:
I had to cannibalize a lot of 5161's to get my final one. Here are a few pics. I still don't have an actual IBM cable though. :???:
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What kind of hard discs are those? and what size?

If you take a look at minuszerodegrees.net, I gave modem7 a link to where you can buy a cable. It won't be the original, but it will work. Personally, I don't think I like the original one all that much, simply because the wiring is too thin. In these newer cables, the wiring is a bit thicker, allowing more current, and lessening the delay between the main PC and the Expansion unit.

You do have an extender card to install into the PC, or XT, right? If so, send me the model # and serial numbers, along with your basic contact info so I can add you to the database of known operating expansion units.

BTW... Yours does look nice. Your installation is quite neat. Good job!
 
IBM Portable PC said:
Believe it or not, I have an IBM 5161 Expansion Unit connected to my Tandy 1000 and it works perfectly!

See http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?43805-My-Pimped-Tandy-1000

I apologize in advance should anyone consider this unholy act to be sacrileges. I humbly request forgiveness .......:pray:
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Not to worry. Please send me your basic contact info and the model and serial numbers of your expansion unit so I can add them to my database of known working units.

Thank you.
 
The drives are both ST-412s. I use the expansion unit with my 5150 and my 5155- I just move the extender card back and forth. I have a newer, generic cable, but I wanted the original cable with the IBM branding on it.
 
That's very cool. I tried to set up my expansion unit with a more modern PC- one that has a Pentium CPU and both PCI and ISA slots, but I could never get it to work properly.
 
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