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Cheapo IDE interface for Model 4p running MM CP/M

Is it possible to boot an operatingsystem with a floppy on a model4P
and after the boot ends, swap the FDD with a HD partition with the same operating system.

If this is possible what files are only needed on the boot disk.

B.t.w. thank you for the great HD interface design, it's working fine.
(4 partition of 6 Mb on an old CONNOR A540)

Hans.
 
While it has been a long time since I've done it, yes, you can swap the FDD's drive slot with the HDD's drive slot. In fact, this is pretty much standard procedure.

On my 320K-modified Model 4D long ago I went one step further and had a system RAMdisk image stored on the HDD, and used the AlphaTech FDR utility to do a fast restore in the AUTO JCL. The RAMdisk was then made the SYSTEM disk, and things got very much faster. I set up the 320K banks, using my own @BANK driver, so that banks 3-8 were the RAMdisk, leaving banks 1 and 2 for things like Scripsit Pro, which can make effective use of the extra memory.

This made a 192K RAMdisk, more than large enough for a SYSTEM drive with my most commonly used programs on it. As I recall, I set it up as drive :6 then issued a SYSTEM (SYSTEM=6) which swaps the DCT entries for :0 and :6. To make things more regular, I put a diskdisk image as :7, and then did a SYSTEM (DRIVE=1,SWAP=7) so that the DiskDisk became :1 and the second floppy became :7. Data was typically stored on another set of DiskDisks that could be swapped in and out of :2, and general HDD partitions were in :3, :4, and :5, although a little later i made :3 become an external 3.5. A set of JCL's managed the DiskDisk 'insertion' and 'removal' depending upon what I was working on at the time.
 
Thank you lowen.

In the meantime I have found an easier solution.

It only works with LDOS 6.3 and higher.
I have the following hardware: Trs80 Model4P with 128 k Ram. 1 harddisk with interface. 2 Floppy drives.

First I setup the harddisk with four equal drives (4,5,6,7)
Test the system and do a SYSGEN to be save.

Now do the next steps.

BACKUP :0 :4 (S,I)
SYSTEM(DRIVE=2,ENABLE)
SYSTEM(DRIVE=3,ENABLE)
SYSTEM(SYSTEM=4)
SYSTEM(DRIVE=1,SWAP=5)
SYSTEM(DRIVE=2,SWAP=6)
SYSTEM(DRIVE=3,SWAP=7)
SYSTEM(DRIVE=6,DISABLE)
SYSTEM(DRIVE=7,DISABLE)
SYSGEN(DRIVE=4)

Check everything and reboot the system.
You can remove the bootdisk.

The result is now.

Drive0 = HD1 Witk the LDOS operating system on it.
Drive1 = HD2
Drive2 = HD3
Drive3 = HD4
Drive4 = FDD1
Drive5 = FDD2
Drive6 = disabled
Drive7 = disabled

For me it works great.
Have fun with it.
 
Some remarks about the IDE-Interface

It is possible to setup the same harddisk configuration for
LDOS 5 as for LS-DOS 6.
Only the commands SYSGEN and SWAP are a little different, read the manual about the differences.
If you choose HD1 for LS-DOS and HD2 for LDOS and
disable the not used operating systems you can setup a harddisk with two operating systems,
only the boot disks must be different.

There is a little error with the HDDVR6/DCT driver. If you
setup a second partition, the already occupied heads should be shown in the text.
Like it works in the HDDVR5/CMD.

Is the address selection in the interface for Harddisk1 and
Harddisk2 to make them work in Master / Slave setup or
CS mode available. That would be nice for backup the data.
 
So to Matt and Pierce have we been able to get this to work with standard LDOS/LD-DOS drivers yet. I know Matt's driver use 40h but was wondering if any progress had been made to reach that goal. And Pierce I have the Rev 1 board and the prototype how do I make it look for Address C8h?

Also does anyone know the current draw on this thing? Was wondering if a 78L05 regulator could be used as an on board +5v regulator without killing the regulator itself.
 
>> Does anyone know the current draw on this thing?
Depends on the activity, from 2 to 20 mAmp.

>> Was wondering if a 78L05 regulator could be used as an on board +5v regulator without killing the regulator itself.
No the max. current is 100 mA.

But why, your computer an your harddisk have both 5 Volt available.
You can use the 12V., but this low current is no problem for the 5 volt line.
 
I have built two controllers now with no problems and am very pleased with the quality of the components
and the information available.

I want to try to place the controller in the space for the modem in the case of my model 4P.

For the hard drive I ordered an SD to IDE converter on ebay.
Does anyone have experience with it and what are the best settings for the partition (s) when
using a CF or SD card of 16 MB.

Are there still enthusiasts who are working on this project ? There is so little activity on this forum.
 
would recommend getting a 64MB CF card. I know the 32MB CF has a weird geometry. I couldn't get it to act right. So I used a 80MB IDE drive and it worked out better. Also had luck with a 2GB CF card as well.
 
Are there still enthusiasts who are working on this project ? There is so little activity on this forum.
Click to expand...

Well, I've recently purchased an already built unit and a bare PCB. Sadly pearce_jj run out of components; so it'll take some time to build the second interface.

I hope that they'll arrive soon, I'm eager to test a CF card with my Model 4.
 
Chromedome45 and ltursan thank you for your reply.

As I have ordered an SD to IDE converter, I go for the SD card at first.
I have already two hd's perfectly working, a caviar 2120 and a connor CFA540A.
Both with 4 partitions with 6 mB each.

If I have any succes with the SD, I'll let you know.

If somebody want to know, how to use the SD HxC Floppy Emulator to put JV1, JV3 and DMK files on floppy or harddisk,
let me know. This is a very easy and good solution.

If you want to know how to modify the floppycable of the model4P, for using 4 drives and doublesided and 3.5 inch drives.
Just ask. There is a modification of the motherboard necessary. (I only have information for the gate array version)
 
@Hans01

Yes I would be interested in :-
If somebody want to know, how to use the SD HxC Floppy Emulator to put JV1, JV3 and DMK files on floppy or harddisk,
let me know. This is a very easy and good solution.

If you want to know how to modify the floppycable of the model4P, for using 4 drives and doublesided and 3.5 inch drives.
Just ask. There is a modification of the motherboard necessary. (I only have information for the gate array version)

Thanks Ray
 
@Ray

First some global info.
The SD HxC Floppy Emulator is a PCB with a floppy interface that works like 2 real floppydrives.
The data is stored on a SD-card and may be of any type.

You receive a software packet with the emulator and you need a PC and a SD-card reader/writer.
After setup the software you put your sd-card in the reader and select the batch converter in the
emulator software. Select the target drive, your DS-card and select a map on your PC. Dump
all the TRS-80 files you need in this map and slect thesa map as the source.
Click now on convert and all the files are converted to .hfe files and put on the SD-Card.
If you have a few files you can drop them on the converter and then the are convertred immediately.
The files are changed for p.e. LS-DOS.DMK to LS-DOS_DMK.hfe
Now you connect your hardware on the TRS-80, enable drive 3, and if you whish drive 4.
Set the to jumpers on the converterboard for drive 3 and 4.
With the 3 buttons on the convertor you can set the data for floppy 3 (4) and select it.
You can use it now on your trs-80, as if it were real diskdrives. You can use, read or write to the drives.

You can easy add data (cmd, bas, txt files) to a virtual disk with TRSTools.exe. Open an excisting
DMK or JVx file, delete some or all files and add new CMD, BAS or other files. Convert it and use it.

You can read all the spec's an order the SD HxC Floppy Emulator at: http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/ and http://www.lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=13

Now the small problem you can expect.
There a to versions of the model 4P, with and without a Gate Array.
As there are only two floppy ports decoded in a TRS80, you have to add two extra ports.
The TRS-80 didn't use the SIDE select line, you need it.

There are different ways to solve these problems, I will show you one, I think the best one.
Options are.
Build in the Emulator in the TRS-80 and use it as drive 1 or even as drive 0
Use the external floppy connector, build a cable and use it as drive 3 and drive 4.

I go for option 2

First decide if you have an Model 4P with a gate array.
If you have a white screen, you don't have one.
If you have a green screen, you probably have one. Check on internet to be sure if you have a gate array.
You can modify all the other model 4 types too, but I have only done the 4P gate array, what seems
the most easy one.
Look at the site of Ira Goldklang for more information.

How to modify a model 4P Gate Array.

At first, don't rely on Servocemanual 26-1080, there are some error about the IC numbers on page 132.

First change this:
U54 to U34
U35 to U16
U34 to U14

Now make the next connections.
U34 pin 7 to U14 pin 9
U34 pin 10 to U14 pin 13
U14 pin 8 to J5 connector 14
U14 pin 12 to J5 connector 6

Make a floppycable with all wires connected.

Note:

#10 is DS0 (for intern use)
#12 is DS1 ( for intern use)
#14 is DS2 for external use
Swap wire 6 with 16 in the connector used on the trs80 side
Now is #16 for DS3 for external use.
Be sure that #32 is connected, this one is used for side sel
 

Attachments

  • TRS80.jpg
    TRS80.jpg
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@Ray

No problem, here is the info for the non gata array version:

Cut traces U75 pins 1,2,3
Cut traces U77 pins 4,6,8,9,11
Make jumper: U75 pin 13 to U75 pin 2
Make Jumper: U55 pin 12 to U75 pin 3
Make Jumper: U77 pin 6 to U74 pin 13
Make Jumper: U75 pin 1 to U54 pin 1
Make Jumper: U32 pin 2 to U77 pin 11
Make Jumper: U32 pin 5 to U77 pin 4
Make Jumper: U32 pin 7 to U77 pin 8
Make Jumper: U32 pin 7 to U20 pin 11
Make Jumper: U20 pin 10 to J5 connector 14
Make Jumper: U32 pin 10 to U77 pin 9
Make Jumper: U32 pin 10 to U20 pin 9
Make Jumper: U20 pin 8 to J5 connector 6

These are the steps in the documentation. I have no experience with this modification.

The info for the floppycable is the same.
 
Hello Ray

If you don't have it, I found the schematic for the non gate array FDD interface.
This one is not modified.


TRS80nongate.jpg
 
Hans01,
I've got a few questions for you.

1. Can you somehow make the TRS80nongate.jpg larger so it is readable when viewed with photo software, and then post on googledrive or send via email?
2. What version of the HxC did you purchase? Slim SD Floppy Emulator, Rev F Floppy Emulator, Rev C Floppy Emulator, USB Floppy Emulator?
3. Why did you chose your present version over, Slim, Rev F or Rev C? Is a Display really necessary on HxC?
4. How did you handle the *REDWC Signal to the Floppy? Do you ONLY have LOW Density, as the Model 4 doesn't support *REDWC?

The 3.5" Standard IBM Style Floppy Drive uses Pin 2 - Reduced Write Current (/REDWC) from the controller to
the drive to control the Density. The Model III & IV do not support this functionality, and the Drive's electronics
will only write LOW Density without control of *REDWC.

5. Are you using, or have used Montezuma Micro CP/M Version 2.31 with 3.5" External Floppy Drives?

I've created some 22DISK Definitions for MM Ver 2.31 and the following are two samples:

#NOT TESTED
BEGIN TRSM TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma System 710K - DSDD 96 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 2 SECTORS 18,256
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18
SIDE2 1 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18
ORDER SIDES
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 0 DSM 354 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 2
END

#NOT TESTED
BEGIN TRSN TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma Data 800K - DSDD 96 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 2 SECTORS 10,512
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
SIDE2 1 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
ORDER SIDES
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 0 DSM 399 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 0
END

I want to use my 3.5" drives with these definitions to make as large as possible *.hfe container for storage with my HxC Emulator.

I'm wondering if you can use these parameters and CREATE a CUSTOM Floppy [LOAD RAW IMAGE] and write a file mm32100x.hfe that can be accessed
with your Model 4? I'd like to also know if you can copy files into the image to make it bootable? That would keep from reading in a floppy for each and every format
that the Model 4 (mm v2.31) can be configured to write. Those are all of the following:
#22DISK CP/M Disk Definitions
BEGIN TRSG TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma System 170K - SSDD 48 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 40 SIDES 1 SECTORS 18,256
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 84 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 2
END

BEGIN TRSH TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma Data 200K - SSDD 48 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 40 SIDES 1 SECTORS 10,512
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 99 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 0
END

BEGIN TRSI TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma System 350K - DSDD 48 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 40 SIDES 2 SECTORS 18,256
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18
SIDE2 1 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18
ORDER EAGLE
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 174 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 2
END

BEGIN TRSJ TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma Data 400K - DSDD 48 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 40 SIDES 2 SECTORS 10,512
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
SIDE2 1 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
ORDER EAGLE
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 199 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 0
END

#NOT TESTED
BEGIN TRSK TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma System 350K - SSDD 96 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 1 SECTORS 18,256
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 174 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 2
END

#NOT TESTED
BEGIN TRSL TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma Data 400K - SSDD 96 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 1 SECTORS 10,512
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 199 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 0
END

#NOT TESTED
BEGIN TRSM TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma System 710K - DSDD 96 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 2 SECTORS 18,256
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18
SIDE2 1 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18
ORDER SIDES
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 0 DSM 354 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 2
END

#NOT TESTED
BEGIN TRSN TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma Data 800K - DSDD 96 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 2 SECTORS 10,512
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
SIDE2 1 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
ORDER SIDES
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 0 DSM 399 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 0
END

BEGIN TRSO TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma Extend System 190K - SSDD 48 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 40 SIDES 1 SECTORS 10,512
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 94 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 2
END

BEGIN TRSP TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma Extend System 390K - SSDD 48 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 40 SIDES 2 SECTORS 10,512
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
SIDE2 1 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
ORDER SIDES
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 194 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 2
END

#NOT TESTED
BEGIN TRSQ TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma Extend System 390K - SSDD 96 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 1 SECTORS 10,512
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 0 DSM 194 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 2
END

#NOT TESTED
BEGIN TRSR TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma Extend System 790K - DSDD 96 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 2 SECTORS 10,512
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
SIDE2 1 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
ORDER SIDES
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 0 DSM 394 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 2
END

BEGIN TRSS TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma Super Data 220K - SSDD 48 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 40 SIDES 1 SECTORS 6,1024
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,2,4,6
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 109 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 0
END

BEGIN TRST TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma Super Data 440K - DSDD 48 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 40 SIDES 2 SECTORS 6,1024
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,2,4,6
SIDE2 1 1,3,5,2,4,6
ORDER EAGLE
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 219 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 0
END

#NOT TESTED
BEGIN TRSU TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma Super Data 440K - SSDD 96 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 1 SECTORS 6,1024
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,2,4,6
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 219 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 0
END

#NOT TESTED
BEGIN TRSV TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma Super Data 880K - DSDD 96 tpi 5.25"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 2 SECTORS 6,1024
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,2,4,6
SIDE2 1 1,3,5,2,4,6
ORDER SIDES
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 0 DSM 439 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 0
END

BEGIN TRSW TRS-80 Model 4,4P Montezuma System 400K - SSDD 96 tpi 3.5"
DENSITY MFM, LOW
CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 1 SECTORS 10,512
SIDE1 0 1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6,8,10
BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 199 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 0
END
Click to expand...

I've been playing with HxCFloppyEmulator v2.0.21.0 (Linux Version) software and without the Slim (the one I think I'll purchase soon) it's hard to
see what is possible, and what works.

I've created a [HOWTO] on the HxC Floppy Emulator Forum describing how to build the Linux (Debian) version of HxC Software.
http://torlus.com/floppy/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1390

Any other information you could provide would be helpful.

Thanks.

Larry.
 
Last edited:
The answers:

1) Read my personal email

2) I have the SD HxCFloppy emulator. (Rev C Floppy Emulator)

3) I don't think that a display is necessary on HxC. But how would you select one out of hundred images?
Sometimes I know the order of some files and push once on forward or reverse.
Most times I look on the display to select. On the display you can setup the behaviour of the emulator, in that case you must see what you do.

4) I have bought a lot of boxes with 3.5 MD diskettes and 5.25 MD diskettes.
In the past I close the density indicator with hot glue of the HD diskettes and had no problems
using them.

5) I have used CP/M in the past. (I believed it was version 2.22)
There are no problems with disk or with the .hfe format. It runs without any problems.

For specific information about the emulator, you beter ask this on the emulator forum.
They are very friendly and helpfull.

I use the emulator as drive 2 and 3, and only connect it when I need it.

I have changed my drive 0 and drive 1 configuration with one 40 track DS 5.25 drive and one
720 Kb 3.25 drive.

I made a new fdd cable for it with a switch in it to swap drive 0 and drive 1

It is possible to replace one of the drives with the emulator.
It is possible to boot from it, very handy with protected software.

I whish you a lot of fun with the emulator, it was worth any euro I have payed for it.
 
Hans01,
Thanks for the larger Image via email.

I now have two questions for you. You state "On the display you can setup the behaviour of the emulator...."

1. What different behaviour is possible via pushbuttons on the Rev C Floppy Emulator?
I haven't seen anything about that in the documentation?

2. If you used CP/M in the past, what was the largest Floppy Image size you created on a Floppy & the HxC Emulator?
170K - TRSG
190K - TRSO
200K - TRSH
220K - TRSS
350K - TRSI
390K - TRSP, TRSQ
400K - TRSJ, TRSL, TRSW
440K - TRST, TRSU
710K - TRSM
790K - TRSR
800K - TRSN
880K - TRSV

Thanks, it's great to have someone with an actual unit to question.

Larry
 
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