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Is it worth going from a Tandy 1000 SX to a SL?

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raifield

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Is there much difference in performance between the Tandy 1000 SX and the Tandy 1000 SL? The SL has the Tandy DAC and the additional hi-res graphic mode that the SX doesn't have, but will I see benefit in going from a 7.16mHz 8088 to a 8mHz 8086? Granted, I have a NEC v20 in my SX now, running at 7.16 I assume and games like Sierra's Quest for Glory I run, but the speed just isn't enough to render the game playable. Assuming I bought a v30 to replace the stock 8086, would I notice the difference or is upgrading to a SL not really worth the price? I can't see many games running on the 8086 that would take advantage of either the Tandy DAC or the additional graphics, so I'm not sure if that's worth it either.

Figured I'd get some opinions here. I was initially interested due to the SL being the "logical" step up from the SX, but it doesn't seem that awesome.
 
The DAC is fun to play with, and it's nice to have the full 16-color 640x200 mode for DeskMate, but to me the biggest advantage of the RL/SL/TL series is the improved IBM compatibility. On my original 1000, a lot of games are unplayable or work in strange ways, because of the different keyboard layout. For example, "Bricks" says "press Scroll Lock to exit" -- but there is no Scroll Lock key! I know there are keyboard remapping TSRs which improve the IBM compatibility, but they aren't 100% foolproof. So I like the newer 1000s much better because you get the industry standard 101-key layout. On my 1000RL I can even plug in a real, original IBM Model M keyboard and it will work.

The RL/SL/TL series also give you DOS and DeskMate in ROM, so they're extremely quick to boot, and if you don't have a hard drive, you'll never have to search around for a boot disk. Also, the onboard video is switchable between CGA and Hercules monochrome, and you get a regular DB25 parallel port, instead of the older 1000s' proprietary card-edge connector.

The 1000RL also gives you a PS/2 mouse port, freeing up the serial port for other uses. I also just love the RL because it's so small, has no fan so it's totally quiet except for the hard drive (which itself is very quiet), and the graphics and hard drive interfaces are fully 16-bit, so it's very quick for an XT-class machine. It also represents the end of the era: the last of the Tandy 1000 series to be compatible with the IBM PCjr / Tandy extended CGA graphics modes. (Although perhaps the 1000TL/3 came out after the RL, but I have never actually seen a TL/3, so I think it's a very rare model.)
 
One of the great benefits is that you can plug in an IBM Model M keyboard and expect it to work (at least those of true IBM manufacture and with the appropriate adapter if necessary), in an SL, TL or RL. Comparing the 90-key Tandy and 83-key IBM keyboards (games of the 1980s could not rely on all players having a 101 keyboard), scroll lock is probably the only key on the IBM keyboard for which you cannot find a direct replacement on the Tandy. The rest may require shifting or are in inconvenient places, but they are all there. There are games that will assume you are using the Tandy 1000 keyboard and expect keycodes for which there is no IBM substitute, like the dedicated cursor keys.

The SL and TL (except for the TL/3) still use the card edge port. They have four to five upgrade slots and multiple drive bays whereas the RL only has one of each. The hard drive interface is 8-bit on the RL. Software can get confused about the Hercules compatibility in Tandy machines. The RL has a soldered CPU in a PLCC and a V30 upgrade is tricky at best. No 8087 upgrade possible, 40MB max hard drive, and 25W power supply, while silent, can be taxed to its limit. The SL with a V30 is very speedy for an XT machine.

However, the SX offers composite video output

vwestlife said:
The DAC is fun to play with, and it's nice to have the full 16-color 640x200 mode for DeskMate, but to me the biggest advantage of the RL/SL/TL series is the improved IBM compatibility. On my original 1000, a lot of games are unplayable or work in strange ways, because of the different keyboard layout. For example, "Bricks" says "press Scroll Lock to exit" -- but there is no Scroll Lock key! I know there are keyboard remapping TSRs which improve the IBM compatibility, but they aren't 100% foolproof. So I like the newer 1000s much better because you get the industry standard 101-key layout. On my 1000RL I can even plug in a real, original IBM Model M keyboard and it will work.

The RL/SL/TL series also give you DOS and DeskMate in ROM, so they're extremely quick to boot, and if you don't have a hard drive, you'll never have to search around for a boot disk. Also, the onboard video is switchable between CGA and Hercules monochrome, and you get a regular DB25 parallel port, instead of the older 1000s' proprietary card-edge connector.

The 1000RL also gives you a PS/2 mouse port, freeing up the serial port for other uses. I also just love the RL because it's so small, has no fan so it's totally quiet except for the hard drive (which itself is very quiet), and the graphics and hard drive interfaces are fully 16-bit, so it's very quick for an XT-class machine. It also represents the end of the era: the last of the Tandy 1000 series to be compatible with the IBM PCjr / Tandy extended CGA graphics modes. (Although perhaps the 1000TL/3 came out after the RL, but I have never actually seen a TL/3, so I think it's a very rare model.)
Click to expand...
 
Thanks. I never used the composite video output on the SX, but I did use the audio output to the Tandy MMS-10 speakers. I have a IBM Model F keyboard and a Model M PS/2 keyboard. If I can use the Model M with the SL using a XT->PS/2 adapter, that would be great, but would put the hour I spent hand-scrubbing the Model F clean to some waste. Guess I could always sell it. I've seen the Tandy "Enhanced" keyboard on eBay, but usually at ridiculous prices. I'm assuming that this is the keyboard "meant" to go with the SL/TL/RL systems?

It seems the biggest question, that being if the jump from SX to SL is worth it, will be something I'll have to determine on my own. If I decide to get the SL, I'll be sure to post my impressions.
 
Which Model F keyboard do you have, the PC/XT or AT version? I do not think the AT version would work with anything short of an RLX or RSX, but the PC/XT should work well with the SL/RL/TL.

Do you have any particular reason for going with an SL? A TL will be faster.
 
Great Hierophant said:
The SL and TL (except for the TL/3) still use the card edge port. They have four to five upgrade slots and multiple drive bays whereas the RL only has one of each. The hard drive interface is 8-bit on the RL. Software can get confused about the Hercules compatibility in Tandy machines. The RL has a soldered CPU in a PLCC and a V30 upgrade is tricky at best. No 8087 upgrade possible, 40MB max hard drive, and 25W power supply, while silent, can be taxed to its limit. The SL with a V30 is very speedy for an XT machine.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the corrections. I had forgotten some of the details.

Although I would not recommend trying to stuff in something like a fully loaded Expanded RAM card, I have not run into any power supply shortcomings with my 1000RL. Its motherboard is built almost like a laptop; the 8086 CPU is barely even warm to the touch when running. And the stock 40 meg ST-351A/X is just about the smallest, quietest, and lowest power consumption "vintage" hard drive ever made -- and replacements are still easy to find, too.

p.s. There was also a 1000SL/2, but aside from having a 3.5" 720K floppy drive as standard instead of a 5.25" drive, I'm not sure what the other updates over the regular 1000SL were.
 
Great Hierophant said:
Which Model F keyboard do you have, the PC/XT or AT version? I do not think the AT version would work with anything short of an RLX or RSX, but the PC/XT should work well with the SL/RL/TL.

Do you have any particular reason for going with an SL? A TL will be faster.
Click to expand...

I've only seen a SL for sale. I have a TL/2 that was given to me, but it was in a flood, the exterior and interior of the case is rusted, the floppy drive doesn't work, and the hard drive is going. I'm probably going to junk it.

How would I be able to tell if the Model F is XT or AT? It appears to be XT, lacking LED indicators and the SysReq key and the IBM badge does not specify that it is an AT keyboard.
 
raifield said:
How would I be able to tell if the Model F is XT or AT? It appears to be XT, lacking LED indicators and the SysReq key and the IBM badge does not specify that it is an AT keyboard.
Click to expand...
That is indeed the PC/XT keyboard: 83 keys, no LEDs, no SysReq.
 
I bought the Tandy 1000 SL off of eBay. Provided it arrives in working condition I'll post my thoughts on the SX versus the SL.
 
I got a 1000SL of my own, thanks to eBay. Now I have to find a NEC V30 chip! :)

Just like the original 1000, the fan is LOUD, and blows a tremendous amount of air. Maybe that was needed for non-air-conditioned schools in Tandy's home state of Texas, but otherwise it's really overkill.

Mine came with the fully populated 640K RAM on the motherboard, but it steals 64K of that for use as video RAM, so you really end up with 576K. (This is why the RL and TLs came with up to 768K RAM -- the extra 128K was reserved for the video.)

No SmartWatch real-time clock chip, but there's an empty socket for one. (Anybody got a spare?)

Mine also came with a cheap and nasty Taiwanese MFM controller card (DTK?) with the drive types hard-wired into the ROM (not user configurable)... and a (gasp!) Kalok Octagon KL-320 hard drive. It has read errors all over the place, so it may be headed for the trash can, just like every other Kalok drive I've ever encountered or heard of before.

Thankfully, though, that Kalok was intalled with the necessary proprietary mounting rails to use the bottom drive bay. If I didn't have those, it would definitely take some craftsmanship to properly install a drive there!

And speaking of drives, this is just about the worst Tandy to install different floppy drives into. First of all, the provided floppy cable is way too short to use anything other than the original Teac 5.25" drives, which have their Pin 1 on the opposite side of the industry standard. It also doesn't have the twist between the A and B drives, so you have to set Drive A to use Drive Select 0 -- and most modern 3.5" drives don't give you drive select jumpers anymore!

So, you're thinking, just replace the floppy cable with a longer one with the twist, and then all will be good -- but WATCH OUT! The motherboard supplies +5 and +12 volts DC through some of the pins normally used for ground, but the factory supplied extra-short floppy cable has the corresponding wires punched out, breaking the connection to the power and making it safe for use with normal drives. But if you install a different cable and don't also clip out those wires, you'll surely burn out your floppy drives by putting that voltage where it doesn't belong!

The Molex power cables are also too short to reach anything other than the exact location of the power plugs on the OEM Teac drives -- mine already came with a Y-adapter installed, to reach the Kalok hard drive.

Still, it's a good model for playing Tandy games -- the built-in speaker is large and sounds good, and you get a handy volume control knob right on the front panel.
 
Here are the pins to cut if you want to modify a standard floppy cable to work in a Tandy 1000 series which supplies power through the floppy cable. The original Tandy-supplied cable is on the right, and the one I hacked up myself is obviously on the left:

DSC00756.jpg
 
Sounds like you got the SL I was watching on eBay. No worries, I bought the other, crappier-looking one, which has yet to arrive. I've got a 3.5/5.25 combo drive in a different PC and a 8-bit ethernet card, so providing that the floppy drive works, I won't need to worry about Tandy's shenanigans. What games have you played? I'm hoping the jump from 8088 to 8086 gives it a bit more juice to run some games.
 
raifield said:
Sounds like you got the SL I was watching on eBay. No worries, I bought the other, crappier-looking one, which has yet to arrive. I've got a 3.5/5.25 combo drive in a different PC and a 8-bit ethernet card, so providing that the floppy drive works, I won't need to worry about Tandy's shenanigans. What games have you played? I'm hoping the jump from 8088 to 8086 gives it a bit more juice to run some games.
Click to expand...
There is another 1000SL listed right now, with the original box. All of its expansion slots have the original Tandy-style blanks, so it appears not to have a hard drive installed.

Mine came with a bunch of Spectrum Holobyte games, although most have that annoying copy protection which requires you to look up a name or code word in the original book that came with it, which I don't have. At least I can look at the title screens and listen to the intro music in Tandy sound and graphics! It appears the original owner was a huge Tetris fan, because he/she had many of the spin-offs, too, like Welltris, Wordtris, etc.
 
raifield said:
I bought the Tandy 1000 SL off of eBay. Provided it arrives in working condition I'll post my thoughts on the SX versus the SL.
Click to expand...

I think you will find it to be the same speed as your NEC V20-enabled SX until you replace the 8086 in the SL with an NEC V30. It's about a 25% speed improvement to do so, and doesn't hurt game compatibility. (It might hurt running directly off of copy-protected diskettes, but pretty much every game has been cracked and released so you shouldn't have trouble finding unprotected versions.)
 
raifield said:
That's the plan, provided I can find a NEC v30.
Click to expand...
Although scarce for a long time, there are new some surplus dealers selling V20 and V30 chips on eBay. I just bought what was claimed to be an 8 MHz V30 for $15. Hopefully it's not a factory reject or Chinese counterfeit, like those "new" SID chips that started showing up a few years ago!
 
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