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keyboard for Apple II clones?

I

iz8dwf

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Hi all,
I'm in search of an affordable Apple II clone. I'm not interested in the Apple logo, so I'm just looking for something cheap and even not working, as I believe I can fix it anyway.
I've seen a few clones on ebay, the ones really looking as the original II or IIe, in other words, the ones with embedded keyboard.
However, I've also seen a few clones (at least, they're advertised as such) with a different shape, usually they have embedded 5 1/4" floppy drive and external keyboard. Now, the external keyboard is almost always missing. So my question is: did all those clones have any kind of standard keyboard interface or every one had something custom?
What the experts say?

Thanks in advance
Frank
 
Sounds like you're looking for a basis, or a medfly. Unforunately I can't answer your keyboard question...
 
Anthony Adverse said:
Sounds like you're looking for a basis, or a medfly. Unforunately I can't answer your keyboard question...
Click to expand...
He could also be looking for an Albert, which I think uses a serial keyboard on coiled telephone cable. Don't think it was any standard pin out, but I'm sure the keyboard was an off the shelf unit.

If he is asking did any use a standard DEC or IBM keyboard pin out, I think the answer is most likely no. Any unit he finds he's have to figure out the wiring and possibly even the serial protocol.
 
Yeah, I understand. I've never seen enough clones in one place to try and start checking keyboards. The few I've seen have differing plugs... the medfly had something approximating a db15 if I recall, and I have seen the coily cable on a modular plug too... But as I say, I don't really know whats driving it.

The only secondary thought I have is, somewhere in there, there must be something that looks pretty much like input from a regular k/b its just a matter of how far down the circuitry it appears.

A
 
There was never a "standard" interface for keyboards in the clone universe. Some cloners used the 16-pin DIP socket like the Apple II, particularly the Taiwanese clones, as well as the earlier Franklin Ace models 1000/1200 family. Later models of the Franklin Ace switched to a DB connector, but it isn't a "serial" connection. Be extremely careful when tossing the word "serial" around because the word implies a protocol and not just the connector. My expertise is in the Basis 108 keyboard, which I successfully cloned by designing a replacement keyboard controller board in an older IBM AT clone keyboard. The Basis clones use a DB-25 connector but like the later Franklin Ace models, the Basis uses proprietary pinouts and signaling. In fact, many of these external keyboard use a strobe signal that is reverse to the Apple II series. When looking for clones with external keyboards, they are much more rare to find as a complete system because for some reason the keyboards tend to disappear. And, there isn't that much of an interest in producing solutions to adapt modern keyboards to these clones.
 
Whether the subject is IBM campatibles or Apple compatibles, I do believe a standard terminology needs to be adopted. There are many IBM compatibles/workalikes out of there, and a bunch of Apple compatibles also. Then there are _clones_, pretty much exactly duplicates. People equate the term clones with a software compatible work a like machine. This just creates confusion.

I am not an Apple expert or anything close. But I'll venture a guess and say an actual Apple II/II+/IIe clone, according to my usage of the word, has an identical interface with an actual Apple. I never got that far, but I did buy (and sell) an actual Apple II+ clone case:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Spectrum-Apple-II-clone-case-/254019645965?txnId=0&redirect=mobile

Being it was a real clone case, an exact duplicate for all intensive purposes, my next step would have been to find actual clone components to populate the case. But I gone and done sold it.
 
There is a simple way to distinguish "clone" from "compatible." "compatible" basically means it will run Apple II software (and that we are in fact posting in an Apple 8-bit forum.) "clone" indicates that a very high percentage of the firmware is in fact copied from the original Apple II equivalent. The Franklin Ace 1000 is in fact a clone, and so is the Basis 108, as well as probably all of the Taiwanese systems. I personally was a "clean" engineer at Phoenix Tech when we reverse-engineered the IBM PC ROM-BIOS, and therefore all systems that used our BIOS are considered "compatibles." There however weren't that many companies that reverse-engineered the Apple II firmware and then re-wrote it like we did at Phoenix. And that's why "clone" is used much more than "compatible" among Apple 8-bit enthusiasts. There are Apple II "compatibles" like the Laser 128, the later Franklin Ace computers, among others, but again we tend to lump them all together as "clones" rather than "compatibles."
 
I don't have specific knowledge of the 2 units you mentioned, but the way I see it, if it didn't copy every aspect of the original, it's not a clone. Many IBM compatibles used the Phoenix bios, but they weren't clones. They ran virtually all IBM s/w, and likely could use most expansion cards, but differed in any number of ways in appearance, and even what chips were used. The Victor VPC-II I have here is frightening due to how many asics are on the tiny motherboard.
 
Depending on what you are looking for, you have got several options.

If you are looking for an Apple II clone because is cheaper and compatible, well i have had a look at clone's prices, and some are sold at the same price real stuff is worth.

Your best option will be to find the cheaper and broken Apple II around and fix it.

If you find a clone really cheap, go for it, but some parts will probably hard to locate if not impossible.

Another option, the Apple IIe card for the LC PDS slot, really not a clone...
 
I'm quite sure everyone here will agree that going the Apple II clone route is much more expensive than a real Apple II logo'd system. The only reason one would choose a clone/compatible nowadays over the real deal is for collectable purposes, or the sheer interest of the system. I personally chose the Basis 108 route over the Apple II because I want to be different, and exploring a clone's capabilities that virtually no one else has documented in recent time is like me visiting an uninhabited island that has yet to be explored. The 108 is an incredible system, and its engineering alone surpasses any other clone. Again, the lack of people talking about it every day and the lack of ton of documentation on-line makes the system that much more interesting.

That said, if you're looking for anything Apple II, it all comes down to expansion slots vs no expansion slots. If you don't need expansion slots, the Apple IIc is great. And a Macintosh LC running the IIe card is just as great. If you need slots, then get the IIe. The II/II Plus is more fragile, and the IIgs is just not necessary unless you really want the extras.
 
I already have a IIc from the years when these were tossed in the trashcans, it works fine, I've also made an adapter to use a disk-II on its external port, made a serial cable for ADTpro etc..
The only reason why I'd like a II clone is to use some of the expansion boards that I have lying around. So yes, I need slots.
In EU I've seen that the prices for clones are like half of what real Apples are sold for. And they are still are quite too expensive imho. Keyboardless clones go for a decent price, but probably isn't straightforward to adapt some other keyboard.

Frank
 
Let's talk for a minute about keyboards.... The clones with the DIP 16-pin connector need ASCII keyboards. The problem is that the obvious ASCII keyboards on eBay are not cheap. Even if the keyboard spits out ASCII code, it may still not work with the Apple clones, as the keyboard also has to be a parallel ASCII keyboard. Many of the keyboards on eBay are serial ASCII. Your best bet would be to buy a PS/2 keyboard, and then purchase one of many adapters available.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PS2-Keyboard-adapter-for-APPLE-II-II/281958164814
 
The Franklin 2x00 series used a serial keyboard but it was not any kind of standard; it was whatever the developer (can't remember the name... huge Chinese company that also makes Apple iPhones) decided to use. At one point I reverse engineered the protocol and wrote an Arduino program that you could plug in a PS2 keyboard (also getting harder to find) and plug into the ACE. If anyone wants, I can give you the code. All C, fairly easy to follow.

Many people make adapters that will take a PS2 keyboard and plug into the 16 pin DIP that Apple and most clones used. If you need a keyboard, that's your quick way out, although it's not a vintage keyboard originally used on the Apple or a clone.

Bob
 
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